Non-binary gender needs to be added to character customization

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Originally Posted by Kolaina

Considering this is a forum, on the internet, with anonymity, no one would know, nor care about your sexuality or genders if you all weren’t constantly putting it out there. People only care because you want to make them care. Everyone could just live their life but for some reason there’s a need to jump in front of people, waving our arms, calling for unnecessary attention

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I am 100% sure Titanmen is not bi,gay or trans, he's just trying to stir up drama

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Originally Posted by Stormpeaks

I am 100% sure Titanmen is not bi,gay or trans, he's just trying to stir up drama

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I believe that. Was more an indirect response to damianfatale.

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Originally Posted by Stormpeaks

I am 100% sure Titanmen is not bi,gay or trans, he's just trying to stir up drama

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If I remember correctly he/they/them/she (delete as appropriate) confirmed it in an earlier post.

Problem is already solved with FFXIV....

You create a character and if you actually feel like M or F.. you can create that and act like that and be like that... whatever way of how you are mentioned, as in real life, you need to either tell people, or tell on which way you sway, so they can ask.

the most polite way is always to call people the their chosen name, and that is all what there can be said about that.

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Originally Posted by Stormpeaks

I am 100% sure Titanmen is not bi,gay or trans, he's just trying to stir up drama

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I don't think people responding care, they're looking for a reason to go off.

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Originally Posted by psychoEclipse

There's something called "sex differentiation" and, even if the cells starts to form as an undifferentiated zygote, most animals will inevitably develop genetic expressions towards ONE biological sex. Excluding genetic mutations or malformations, humans are male or female, no exceptions. I'm not gonna talk about animals that are actually hermaphrodites, because we are talking about humans and not slugs, so its pointless to even start that topic. In the end, your sex is determined by several biological factors and your mere beliefs will NEVER change what you are.

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Why does "what" someone is matter so much to you?

What about those who do have ambiguous genitalia at birth? Are you going to force them to live the mold that a doctor has randomly assigned them instead of allowing them to develop into their own person?

The world would be a better place if those obsessed with gender would turn their obsession over to fighting crime and violence instead of promoting it with their attacks on those who are different from what they demand they should be.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

The world would be a better place if those obsessed with gender would turn their obsession over to fighting crime and violence instead of promoting it with their attacks on those who are different from what they demand they should be.

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Both sides are obsessed. The “there are only 2 genders” crowd and the “I identify as…..” crowd. Both should keep it away from video games

Oh boy its another troll thread!

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Originally Posted by psychoEclipse

There's something called "sex differentiation" and, even if the cells starts to form as an undifferentiated zygote, most animals will inevitably develop genetic expressions towards ONE biological sex. Excluding genetic mutations or malformations, humans are male or female, no exceptions. I'm not gonna talk about animals that are actually hermaphrodites, because we are talking about humans and not slugs, so its pointless to even start that topic. In the end, your sex is determined by several biological factors and your mere beliefs will NEVER change what you are.

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Scientists disagree with you.

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Originally Posted by TitanMenII

Scientists disagree with you.

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Those scientists who agree with you happen to invest on prodution of chemicals that transition one's sex

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Originally Posted by TitanMenII

A lot of systems in FF14 are not non-binary friendly. For example, you are forced to be referred to as HE or SHE in the story. Some people prefer to be referred to as they, which is not currently an option. People who are genderfluid may wish to change their pronouns occasionally. Right now that requires paying $10 each time.

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Or make a male character AND a female character, and should your pronoun mood change, log to the character that suits that day's pronoun mood the best? Free of charge. :cool:

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Originally Posted by Aword3213

Those scientists who agree with you happen to invest on prodution of chemicals that transition one's sex

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Those are called frogs and naturaly happen in nature when 1 of the genders is severely lacking in their environment. And when doing so their expression changes with it as reproduction is still key. And thats where any current human transgender faces a wall: they cant reproduce after the transition. And thats where nature says its bad.

And to me that is enough reason to NOT promote such things in game, displaying it as existing (like some npcs) is fine. But do not give that as a selection option from the start, as that will show it as being normal. While it isnt. Being accepted isnt the same as pushing your own ideology. People accept your choise as it wont affect them, but very likely will not accept your ideas on how it should be, as that would affect them.

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Originally Posted by UkcsAlias

And thats where any current human transgender faces a wall: they cant reproduce after the transition. And thats where nature says its bad.

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That isn't strictly true speaking from the MtF side infertility is common yes but not an absolute nor is it always permanent

there's a plugin that will replace your character's pronouns with gender neutral ones

so what are people now computer generated programs?

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Originally Posted by Aword3213

Those scientists who agree with you happen to invest on prodution of chemicals that transition one's sex

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There is no evidence for this.

I would fully support SE adding a Type A (masculine) & Type B (feminine) style of emote (and maybe running) animations selectable at the character creation screen, similar to how the Demon's Souls remake handled their character creation. No need for anything else and it would give people slightly more customization without adding a new gender category.

The character creation in general is in dire need of a make over anyway

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Originally Posted by Apolline

The character creation in general is in dire need of a make over anyway

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I'm not so sure that character creation for a ten-year old MMORPG can be modified to any great extent. More cosmetic changes (hairstyles and facepaint) are simple enough, but the game uses standard body models that would be hard to change without a complete makeover of the entire armor system. I don't remember such major changes in any of the MMORPG games I've played over the years. Either it was built-in at game creation or it wasn't and didn't change.

Then again, SE is apparently rewriting the graphics system, so anything might be possible. It might look like a different game, but I suspect it will still look like a Final Fantasy game.

Guess we'll just have to wait until the end of July for that sort of information on 7.0.

Oh I 100% agree we aren’t going to get a massive overhaul. I meant more like…customization choices like unlocking the horns from the au ra faces. I don’t expect new character models

Although I guess that shows how deprived I feel we are of real customization, that just unlocking traits is something I consider a massive update lol

This thread has derailed like so hard into a flame war, am surprised it hasn't been removed/deleted yet.

I honestly dont think SE will ever fully go through with this sorry, with the way its going in the media and with creeps/pe**** (censoring this word for the kids!) 'transitioning' to women to enter ladies/girls bathrooms/locker-rooms freely... to well you know.. its not going well and actual transgendered women are as a result getting ALOT of backlash.

And as for the 'identifying as' .. young children in schools are getting so confused by the whole media flush, that they're claiming to be animals and wanting to be treated/feed as such...

So ya.. its a big media mess and I doubt SE will want to go near that xD But GL!

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Originally Posted by Narissa

I honestly dont think SE will ever fully go through with this

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It's already a thing in Harvestella's character creator though. You can chose whatever pronouns you want, they/them included.

I don't get why people make much of a big deal of this being an option on anything really. More options = more personalization, and that's always good.

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Originally Posted by DiaDeem

It's already a thing in Harvestella's character creator though. You can chose whatever pronouns you want, they/them included.

I don't get why people make much of a big deal of this being an option on anything really. More options = more personalization, and that's always good.

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A lot of people make a big deal about it - quite rightly - because it often doesn't equal 'more options'.

Last I checked, you can't create a masculine looking character in Harvestella. It was a common criticism of the game during the marketing phase, as I recall.

Even when accounting for FFXIV, I've often found myself left wanting given the disproportionate amount of focus placed on androgynous and feminine hairstyles/outfits as opposed to traditionally masculine ones.

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Originally Posted by Apolline

I would fully support SE adding a Type A (masculine) & Type B (feminine) style of emote (and maybe running) animations selectable at the character creation screen, similar to how the Demon's Souls remake handled their character creation. No need for anything else and it would give people slightly more customization without adding a new gender category.

The character creation in general is in dire need of a make over anyway

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That is a very nice compromise and will allow bigender players to mix and match their way of expression.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

A lot of people make a big deal about it - quite rightly - because it often doesn't equal 'more options'.

Last I checked, you can't create a masculine looking character in Harvestella. It was a common criticism of the game during the marketing phase, as I recall.

Even when accounting for FFXIV, I've often found myself left wanting given the disproportionate amount of focus placed on androgynous and feminine hairstyles/outfits as opposed to traditionally masculine ones.

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It definitely is more options. Usually you can only be he/she, and "they" is an added option. There's no reasonable argument to want less options in any character creator. My argument wasn't even about Harvestella "doing it right" or whatever. I merely pointed out that SE has done the pronoun thing before. Want more masculine options? Good, me too. More options is always better. I'm still waiting for the XIV guys to get some REAL proper beard options. Can think of anything else? Because it probably should be added too.

More options, always.

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Originally Posted by TitanMenII

A NB student came into my office today and mentioned how they don't feel represented in media. As more people come out as non-binary, like Bella Ramsey (https://gamerant.com/the-last-of-us-...sey-nonbinary/), I think FF14 also has a role in being inclusive with gender identity as more and more people identify as NB, third gender, queergender or genderless:

https://assets.weforum.org/editor/4p...CWgjYYQt1I.PNG

I hope that Square Enix can make a progressive statement and let the first MMO include non-binary/third gender choices during character customization. If they want to go further, they could even make new racial models that have a queergender aesthetic, like Shadowbringers Urianger, which would allow for deeper customization as even people in the gender binary would also be interested in playing gender-ambiguous characters.

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This might have been said before, so apologies for not reading through 24 existing pages :P, but as much as I think this would be lovely for additional player choice and representation, you have to consider the costs in doing so. It's not just adding "playergender=they/them" into texts, there's also the fact FFXIV has an incredible amount of voice acting and, since ARR, most voice actors have been replaced - so not only would they have to have their current voice actors re-record lines to use "they/them", they'd also have to rehire the previous voice actors to do as well.

Unfortunately, your idea of having a third bodychoice for each of the player races, whilst an ideal way to handle gender-non-conforming characters, would also be too costly to prioritise in place of other features. The game already takes enough time giving us female Hrothgar after the wait we had for male Viera, but adding eight new models with options that aren't present in the male/female choices would be a massive undertaking by comparison. If anything, it would be more cost-effective and resourceful to add some sex-locked character creator options into the opposite sex. For an easy example, trans-male Au Ra having female Au Ra horns and vice versa.

Honestly the most realistic way to add trans choices at this point in time is to seperate the existing pronouns from the character's sex and let the players choose them during creation. Everything else would take more resources than many would see worthwhile, dev team included.

TL;DR
Nonbinary representation would be amazing in an already, equally amazing MMO, but considering the resources that would be required, it's unlikely to happen. Seperating the existing pronouns and turning them into a choice during character creation might be the most realistic halfway point.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Even when accounting for FFXIV, I've often found myself left wanting given the disproportionate amount of focus placed on androgynous and feminine hairstyles/outfits as opposed to traditionally masculine ones.

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I found this puzzling, as "traditionally masculine" is so ill-defined at the best of times. "Tradition" is almost entirely cultural, regional, and temporal. And cyclical.

Theodric's avatar, Matthieu, fits in nicely within the 21st century United States yet would have been decidedly derided in mid-20th century United States.

How far back must one go to invoke tradition, and in whose context? Rather than invoke "traditionally masculine" when expressing desires for changes in looks, it is best to be specific about the desired changes and preferences.

Personally, I'd like long hair in-game to not be spoiled by collisions with clothing (I know that's a common complaint here). More facial hair choices for males would be good ... full beards, mustaches that don't look like thin lines, and goatees that are well shaped. Perhaps a contest for artists to provide some feedback about styles that meet approval.

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Originally Posted by CornishDinosaur

This might have been said before, so apologies for not reading through 24 existing pages :P, but as much as I think this would be lovely for additional player choice and representation, you have to consider the costs in doing so. It's not just adding "playergender=they/them" into texts, there's also the fact FFXIV has an incredible amount of voice acting and, since ARR, most voice actors have been replaced - so not only would they have to have their current voice actors re-record lines to use "they/them", they'd also have to rehire the previous voice actors to do as well.

Unfortunately, your idea of having a third bodychoice for each of the player races, whilst an ideal way to handle gender-non-conforming characters, would also be too costly to prioritise in place of other features. The game already takes enough time giving us female Hrothgar after the wait we had for male Viera, but adding eight new models with options that aren't present in the male/female choices would be a massive undertaking by comparison. If anything, it would be more cost-effective and resourceful to add some sex-locked character creator options into the opposite sex. For an easy example, trans-male Au Ra having female Au Ra horns and vice versa.

Honestly the most realistic way to add trans choices at this point in time is to seperate the existing pronouns from the character's sex and let the players choose them during creation. Everything else would take more resources than many would see worthwhile, dev team included.

TL;DR
Nonbinary representation would be amazing in an already, equally amazing MMO, but considering the resources that would be required, it's unlikely to happen. Seperating the existing pronouns and turning them into a choice during character creation might be the most realistic halfway point.

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Even a halfway point could do wonders for the community. So I support this.

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Originally Posted by Troxbark

We need the apache helicopter option first.

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How dare you be so disrespectful towards the identities of living breathing human beings. Please do not use slurs to describe anyone and stop trying to invalidate the gender or non-gender identities of those around you. Regardless of what anyone identifies as their identity is valid. These people have feelings too.

Start the timer, lads. Let's see how long this one lasts. We got another one.

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Originally Posted by PetThisMiqo

How dare you be so disrespectful towards the identities of living breathing human beings. Please do not use slurs to describe anyone and stop trying to invalidate the gender or non-gender identities of those around you. Regardless of what anyone identifies as their identity is valid. These people have feelings too.

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As a person who identifies as apache helicopter, I am deeply offended by your utter disrespect towards my gender identity.

no thank you. I think the current system works, and we don't need to fix what isn't broken.

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Originally Posted by PetThisMiqo

How dare you be so disrespectful towards the identities of living breathing human beings. Please do not use slurs to describe anyone and stop trying to invalidate the gender or non-gender identities of those around you. Regardless of what anyone identifies as their identity is valid. These people have feelings too.

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People can identify as whatever they want right? So actually its not a slur and you are a bigot for saying she cant be.

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Originally Posted by Nyxs

People can identify as whatever they want right? So actually its not a slur and you are a bigot for saying she cant be.

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Double standard at its finest

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Originally Posted by PetThisMiqo

stop trying to invalidate the gender or non-gender identities of those around you.

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Continues to invalidate others’ gender identities

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Originally Posted by PetThisMiqo

Regardless of what anyone identifies as their identity is valid.

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Proceed to label other’s gender identity as slur

We need the apache helicopter option first.

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Originally Posted by TitanMenII

This is incredibly offensive and you need to educate yourself on why that slur is transphobic and usually made by incels. Are you a hateful transphobic incel?
https://www.pedestrian.tv/online/ide...incels-trolls/
Non-binary folks don't threaten you in any way. Stop making incel attacks.

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Can you read about the people that done the study and tell me in any sense that they are not biased?
https://www.australiansexsurvey.com.au/
You should apply more critical thinking to your answers.

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Originally Posted by TitanMenII

text.

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Who is this impostor? What have you done with the real Titanman?




The strongest spirits will always triumph.

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Originally Posted by WeebPolice

Who is this impostor? What have you done with the real Titanman?




The strongest spirits will always triumph.

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It's the same TitanMen. Just one of his like 30 sock accounts.