What Zero Could've Been

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Originally Posted by Sweetness

So you’re mad about this strong woman trope. I can guarantee you’d be on here complaining about if the new character was a damsel in distress trope. It’s all subjective and everything has been done before

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If it's done badly? Of course. They need to figure out what it is that makes heroines like Garnet, Yuna, Aerith, etc compelling and likeable. As if I haven't already explained just why and how those characters worked several times over. Zero's role could've easily been taken over by a male in the cast, she may as well be a male Viera given her facial appearance, but I suppose for now I'll have to deal with Vrtra's whining about his sister instead.

If by 7.0 Zero doesn't get a 'She's All That' level make over from Tataru and doesn't breasts boobily down the stairs to seduce Estinien into tying his hair into a very masculine, manly ponytail this game is as good as dead. :mad::mad::mad:

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

They need to figure out what it is that makes heroines like Garnet, Yuna, Aerith, etc compelling and likeable.

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No they don't.
This isn't FFVII, FFIX or FFX. Those are 3 completely different games, with different settings and different storylines.
FFXIV is not any of those games, it has a much different setting and characters; Stronger characters that dont need saving and arnt just cute flowers in dresses, its Female character arnt cute things that you need to protect. Frankly, FFXIV is better for it.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Nothing that I have said is sexist, no matter how much you are eager to throw around the term. We didn't need another "wow she's so strong and cool" sort of party member, both FFXIV and modern media in general is oversaturated with this sort of thing and it's exhausting.

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anime and things heavily derived from anime tropes, archetypes, story structure etc... do tend to have "strong and cool" as a popular character archetype, it's not that out of place tbqh. there's a boatload of male characters one could ascribe those same traits to, in the same game, as well; if we're willing to boil them down to their constituent parts.

zero has, also, only existed for one segment of story and despite how one may subjectively feel about the presentation of character, it does fit her narrative for where she's come from and what she's known so far. subjectively you can hold whichever opinion you want to hold, but to frame it as objectivity borne from anecdotal data is farcical.

there's a lot left unwritten for her character, and i feel like it's premature to make snap judgments without the actual character's journey and narrative leaving the intro page. good faith analysis requires more of the narrative to unfold, to where the direction, theming and characterization actually... exist.

that said, i also find the "endearing, sympathetic" woman archetype is far more overused and trite as a base concept due to the saturation of it in media at this point in time (and, heavily in the past). and that's an opinion of equal subjective value to your own. the phone notes app thing in the op didn't really sell me on your alternative, as it's just a different common flavor you prefer in contrast to me.

can se write her poorly? well, yeah. there's a bunch of things in game i consider poor either in lapse of judgment, failure of due diligence to responsibly research the stories they may derive other story beats from, patterns of story-telling that feel out of place and one-sided in application and so on and so forth. do i hope they manage to write her well? of course. time will tell.

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Originally Posted by Yencat

If by 7.0 Zero doesn't get a 'She's All That' level make over from Tataru and doesn't breasts boobily down the stairs to seduce Estinien into tying his hair into a very masculine, manly ponytail this game is as good as dead. :mad::mad::mad:

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Would Estinien even be manly enough to be worthy of Zero's new look and boobily breasts? He is a lanky, slim elf, after all. With very few bulging muscles and absolutely no facial hair :(.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

If it's done badly? Of course. They need to figure out what it is that makes heroines like Garnet, Yuna, Aerith, etc compelling and likeable. As if I haven't already explained just why and how those characters worked several times over. Zero's role could've easily been taken over by a male in the cast, she may as well be a male Viera given her facial appearance, but I suppose for now I'll have to deal with Vrtra's whining about his sister instead.

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Every role in this game could be filled by the opposite sex so why is that even a point? Hell we are walking proof of this. Also "she may as well be a man with how she looks"...you really don't see the issue here? Stuff like that is why folks label you the way they do dude.
Garnet, Yuna, Aerith and Zero are liked by many of the same people including myself despite all of em being vastly different.

Also if Vrtra's concern for his sister is considered "whining" that tells me you have no desire to see things any deeper than the surface. And that fact (yes I'm calling it a fact) is present throughout many of your takes.

I'm just gonna say it. No strong man has an issue with strong women. In fact it SHOULD be encouraged imo.

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Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

No they don't.
This isn't FFVII, FFIX or FFX. Those are 3 completely different games, with different settings and different storylines.
FFXIV is not any of those games, it has a much different setting and characters; Stronger characters that dont need saving and arnt just cute flowers in dresses, its Female character arnt cute things that you need to protect. Frankly, FFXIV is better for it.

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I very much agree agree. It feels silly to compared any FF game to another, as despite some base similarities they all hold different themes and stories. Not to mention that they are single, mostly one-off stories whilst FFXIV has an ongoing, evolving narrative that has the opportunity to constantly add new layers to these characters. The Scions of ARR are very different to the ones in Shadowbringers, and all the better for it I say.

As Aerith is my favourite FF character of all time though, I feel I should say that female characters can still be strong even if they are ‘cute flowers in a dress’. Aerith may not be on the front lines hitting perverts over the head with a chair 24/7 (Although when she is, she is amazing doing it) but she is a really well written, charming character. In the Remake especially, I feel they gave her a lot more agency on top of that (Its also nice how her and Tifa actually bond, rather then get reduced to jealous rivals). However a lot of RPGS are indeed very guilty of having women be the ‘protected’ support class that is only there as part of the main male characters development, and FF is no exception to that.

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Originally Posted by PawPaw

Would Estinien even be manly enough to be worthy of Zero's new look and boobily breasts? He is a lanky, slim elf, after all. With very few bulging muscles and absolutely no facial hair :(.

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The masculine, manly ponytail™ will have its own beard and bulging muscles. The masculine, manly ponytail™ also absolutely does not sloppily eat burgers. :mad:

If what I'm reading in this thread is correct then even if you dock a point for his thin, villainous lips that should be more than enough to where she will at least have to be nice to him.

I really don't understand this angle about Vrtra "whining" about his sister. She disappeared thousands of years ago, in the meantime he led his own nation (and did pretty good at it, compared to the rest of the world).

He tried to rescue her, but quickly abandoned because he decided to make his people come first.

And now he has an opportunity to try to save her, i don't see how he is whining ?
Even in the void i don't remember him getting annoying with his mentions of his sister.
He simply ask details to the voidsent he saw.

Nidhogg was way more "whiny" about his sister (with good reason i conceid).
Vrtra have a complete personality and goals that doesn't around his sister, it is simply his present goal and reason to accompany us.

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Originally Posted by PawPaw

Would Estinien even be manly enough.

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He isn't Zenos Galvus so probably not. On the other hand Zero runs like a man. A male Hyur to be exact and also is a surfboard.

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Originally Posted by RukoBoshi

I really don't understand this angle about Vrtra "whining" about his sister. She disappeared thousands of years ago, in the meantime he led his own nation (and did pretty good at it, compared to the rest of the world).

He tried to rescue her, but quickly abandoned because he decided to make his people come first.

And now he has an opportunity to try to save her, i don't see how he is whining ?
Even in the void i don't remember him getting annoying with his mentions of his sister.
He simply ask details to the voidsent he saw.

Nidhogg was way more "whiny" about his sister (with good reason i conceid).
Vrtra have a complete personality and goals that doesn't around his sister, it is simply his present goal and reason to accompany us.

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It basically boils down to certain people thinking for some reason that men should never show "weak" emotions like caring about others or being sensitive in any way or, god forbid, even crying. Vrtra absolutely does have every right to be worried about her and desperate to find her given the circumstances.

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Originally Posted by Silvarer

It basically boils down to certain people thinking for some reason that men should never show "weak" emotions like caring about others or being sensitive in any way or, god forbid, even crying. Vrtra absolutely does have every right to be worried about her and desperate to find her given the circumstances.

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Well it would help if he had more than 2 personality traits: leader and worried. The little brother angle that's being pushed with him has also been overdone and overused in this game with Alphinaud. I don't play video games to hear men gush about how sad and worried they are, that isn't something that I look for in the male heroes that I'm drawn to. Do they make sacrifices? Do they provide enough entertainment to justify their presence on-screen, like Heavensward Estinien did? If so, excellent. If not, as the current men in the cast are, I leave for better games while just logging in here to turn in leves.

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Originally Posted by Sweetness

Also I’m having a blast reading everyone’s replies.

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Seriously. I never got why people liked watching trash TV...but now I get it. Watching the constant bickering between these regulars and their interpersonal and ideological conflicts is some of the cheapest entertainment I can get on a slow day.

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Originally Posted by Hurlstone

As Aerith is my favourite FF character of all time though, I feel I should say that female characters can still be strong even if they are ‘cute flowers in a dress’. Aerith may not be on the front lines hitting perverts over the head with a chair 24/7 (Although when she is, she is amazing doing it) but she is a really well written, charming character. In the Remake especially, I feel they gave her a lot more agency on top of that (Its also nice how her and Tifa actually bond, rather then get reduced to jealous rivals).

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Well put and I completely agree.

Women and men shouldn't be confined to a "default" state where if you're anything other than the caricature of a traditional gender role it's some sort of statement or a transgression, it's just being a well-rounded human being and behaving in a way that comes naturally to each individual, whether that fits within traditional gender roles or not.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

I don't think that Y'shtola with the combination of her lackluster appearence and personality gives her the same sort of pass that someone like Yotsuyu or Bayonetta gets when it comes to how they treat men.

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https://i.imgur.com/icA0wit.jpg

Aveyond, why don't you leave it up to us females to decide how we behave and look and interact with the world? We don't need your help.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

I leave for better games while just logging in here to turn in leves.

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Well those Leves must give BAD exp, because you dont have a single Job/Class at lv90
Your Highest is lv 81.....but you seem to know alot about Endwalker and its current post story.....is aveyond-dreams an Alt?

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Well it would help if he had more than 2 personality traits: leader and worried. The little brother angle that's being pushed with him has also been overdone and overused in this game with Alphinaud. I don't play video games to hear men gush about how sad and worried they are, that isn't something that I look for in the male heroes that I'm drawn to. Do they make sacrifices? Do they provide enough entertainment to justify their presence on-screen, like Heavensward Estinien did? If so, excellent. If not, as the current men in the cast are, I leave for better games while just logging in here to turn in leves.

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HW Estinien...you mean the same guy who at EVERY chance expressed his "Dragon bad dragon bad dragon bad...ice witch...dragon bad"?

Don't get me wrong I like him in HW but he was doing the very thing you shame the current cast for apparently doing now...

Also the little brother angle is FAR different here. With V it's a case of "you've been looking after us this whole time. Now it's time we do the same for you". Very different dynamic than Alphi and Estiniens brotherly bond.

tbh after reading the other posts from op in the thread, i realized my earlier folly and that there is 0 interest in actual critical engagement of a narrative.

my solution is to download big booba [redacted] enhancements, change the language to one you dont know and you'll find so many characters you adore.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

The real problem was zodiark was a 3 so he couldn't talk to minfilia.

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LMAO Valk I gave my monitor a good spray of soda with that one.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

https://i.imgur.com/icA0wit.jpg

Aveyond, why don't you leave it up to us females to decide how we behave and look and interact with the world? We don't need your help.

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Agreed 100% on this. I'm my own person. I don't need a man to tell me how to act, look and speak.

It's like a lot of people say Zero has just been introduced and they're slowly working on fleshing her out. I'd rather them do that then just throw it all in my face at once.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

I leave for better games

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I feel like we could make a drinking game out of how often aveyond says he's leaving. But I'd rather keep my liver.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

I feel like we could make a drinking game out of how often aveyond says he's leaving. But I'd rather keep my liver.

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Id probly be in the Hospital
But the best I got is Crown Apple. So id at least be Drinking some tasty stuff

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Well it would help if he had more than 2 personality traits: leader and worried. The little brother angle that's being pushed with him has also been overdone and overused in this game with Alphinaud. I don't play video games to hear men gush about how sad and worried they are, that isn't something that I look for in the male heroes that I'm drawn to. Do they make sacrifices? Do they provide enough entertainment to justify their presence on-screen, like Heavensward Estinien did? If so, excellent. If not, as the current men in the cast are, I leave for better games while just logging in here to turn in leves.

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Personal preference is one thing, but that's not what you've been doing at all in your comments in this thread.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

I feel like we could make a drinking game out of how often aveyond says he's leaving. But I'd rather keep my liver.

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I don't drink so I'd be able to see sounds and hear colors after overdosing on coffee.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Well it would help if he had more than 2 personality traits: leader and worried. The little brother angle that's being pushed with him has also been overdone and overused in this game with Alphinaud. I don't play video games to hear men gush about how sad and worried they are, that isn't something that I look for in the male heroes that I'm drawn to. Do they make sacrifices? Do they provide enough entertainment to justify their presence on-screen, like Heavensward Estinien did? If so, excellent. If not, as the current men in the cast are, I leave for better games while just logging in here to turn in leves.

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Ya know....for someone who keeps talking about leaving the game, you sure come onto these forums a lot. Any sane person who's as dissatisfied and upset as you seem to be would have disengaged long ago. But yet you're still here with your lukewarm takes about how so-and-so doesn't fit your standards. Your misery is entirely self-inflicted. What a glutton for punishment.

Aveyond weren't you one of the people complaining that too many of the characters we meet are friendly and agreeable?

I thought someone like Zero would have been a welcome change.

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Originally Posted by KariTheFox

Aveyond weren't you one of the people complaining that too many of the characters we meet are friendly and agreeable?

I thought someone like Zero would have been a welcome change.

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Probably....if it was a Guy.
(His words, not mine)

Just read more of this thread, what's with the utterly bizarre take that Y'sthola isn't attractive. What isn't attractive about a blind catgirl who adapted the mannerisms of the old lady that raised her?

Senti your replies to me always seem so angry and incoherent. Are you okay?

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Originally Posted by KariTheFox

Sentai your replies to me always seem so angry and incoherent. Are you okay?

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I think its a Knee-Jerk reaction that they just make sudden unhinged rants.
Not even making fun of them, its an observation.

After their almost complete lack of main character development across the board this expansion, I'm not overly optimistic about this right now.

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Originally Posted by Darthgummibear

After their almost complete lack of main character development across the board this expansion, I'm not overly optimistic about this right now.

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Personally I think the expansion as a whole suffered from too many characters being involved, and nowhere near enough time dedicated (or even available) to actually develop any of them. So it ended up being mostly driven by plot, which imo is a pretty risky choice when your plot hinges on time travel. Which is already often poorly handled.

Anyway I like Zero, and the thing I did dislike about her was the odd push for friendship. Low-key hope she stays kind of distant and pragmatic. We have enough happy hold-hands-into-the-sunset friends to go stab primals and such with already.

The Dead Sea called. It wants its salt content back.

Senti I doubt you'll listen since you've admitted to being an irrational, but you need to take a break from the forums. Or the game or both. If anyone else who cares about you, really truly cares about your well being and mental state they should agree with me. I doubt they will and most likely tell you that if you did you'd be caving in to the other side and allowing them to silence your voice or whatever. Which is just full of yikes.

As you have stated in another thread you've burnt out and continuing to engage with the activity that's made you feel burnt out to begin with is more often then not going to lead to feeling even more burnt out. More angry and bitter until it starts to affect other parts of your life and becomes even more of a problem. It's not shameful to admit to burn out. It happens to everyone at some point. There also shouldn't be any type of shame from admitting to being burn out either. Nor from taking breaks or lessening the amount of time you give to engage with something or even someone who is putting you into a negative headspace.

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Originally Posted by SannaR

Senti I doubt you'll listen since you've admitted to being an irrational, but you need to take a break from the forums. Or the game or both. If anyone else who cares about you, really truly cares about your well being and mental state they should agree with me. I doubt they will and most likely tell you that if you did you'd be caving in to the other side and allowing them to silence your voice or whatever. Which is just full of yikes.

As you have stated in another thread you've burnt out and continuing to engage with the activity that's made you feel burnt out to begin with is more often then not going to lead to feeling even more burnt out. More angry and bitter until it starts to affect other parts of your life and becomes even more of a problem. It's not shameful to admit to burn out. It happens to everyone at some point. There also shouldn't be any type of shame from admitting to being burn out either. Nor from taking breaks or lessening the amount of time you give to engage with something or even someone who is putting you into a negative headspace.

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Or the burnout could be a result of the player noticing something questionable and when they bring it up with their fellow player it devolves into the SDF (SE defense force) telling the player they are wrong for feeling that way towards a game they pay monthly for. lmao

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Originally Posted by Raoabolic

Or the burnout could be a result of the player noticing something questionable and when they bring it up with their fellow player it devolves into the SDF (SE defense force) telling the player they are wrong for feeling that way towards a game they pay monthly for. lmao

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You've got it all figured out. I wish more people did.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

You've got it all figured out. I wish more people did.

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Figuring it out just means you are more depressed about the situation but you can't tell anyone about it without getting into an argument, lol.
Ignorance really is a bliss!

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Originally Posted by Raoabolic

Figuring it out just means you are more depressed about the situation but you can't tell anyone about it without getting into an argument, lol.
Ignorance really is a bliss!

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It is bliss...until it isn't. :p

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Originally Posted by Raoabolic

Or the burnout could be a result of the player noticing something questionable and when they bring it up with their fellow player it devolves into the SDF (SE defense force) telling the player they are wrong for feeling that way towards a game they pay monthly for. lmao

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Maybe they just need to relax some, maybe eat a burger or two.

It's funny to me tho that the people claiming they are being silenced are the ones putting those who disagree with them on ignore because they don't really have any counterpoints.

There's no real discussion to be had either, most of the time. "this is my point, if you disagree you shouldn't because I'm right" doesn't really make much for legit discussions. Especially when actual productive responses are completely ignored.

The OP pretty much abandoned this thread after it didn't go the way they thought it would. They probably thought they'd have more backup but even their most staunch defenders don't seem to want to touch their hot takes with a 10 foot pole lol.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Mayne the just need to relax some, maybe eat a burger or two.

It's funny to me tho that the people claiming they are being silenced are the ones putting those who disagree with them on ignore because they don't really have any counter points.

The OP pretty much abandoned this thread after it didn't go the way they thought it would. They probably thought they'd have more backup but even their most staunch defenders don't seem to want to touch their hot takes with a 10 foot pole lol.

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Yeah, it was a crap show from the start. Sometimes I agree with the OP on some things, other times I do not. The vast majority of the time they leave me scratching my head in confusion. I don't see how anyone could have sided with them here. It was a pretty awful take that only got worse because they couldn't stop digging themselves a deeper hole.