Tale of Emet [FF14 x Nier Reincarnation event story]

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

Honestly, I think theres a good chance they could pull a fast one.

In 3.1-3.3 the conflict was all about the Warriors of Darkness and their struggles on the First, which seemed to point to that as our inevitable destination. 4.x was all about Garlemald, which when 5.0 came out was uh… yeah. The 5.x was the most straightforward honestly and even it was mostly about the First and Elidibus until 5.4. Endwalker is definitely the one that could break that trend, as it’s doing so with a lot of the narrative patterns we’ve gotten used to, but I could see the writers being sneaky about things.

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5.0 was not surprising we did not get Garlemald since plenty of people predicted in 4.X that 5.0 expansion will be focused completely on the First Shard due to how all the Scions were being Isekai into the First shard.

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Originally Posted by EdwinLi

5.0 was not surprising we did not get Garlemald since plenty of people predicted in 4.X that 5.0 expansion will be focused completely on the First Shard due to how all the Scions were being Isekai into the First shard.

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That certainly wasn’t the impression I got back before 4.4. It was all Garleans at that point.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

That certainly wasn’t the impression I got back before 4.4. It was all Garleans at that point.

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Yes, that is mostly because they never really start focusing on where the next expansion will go until X.4 MSQ updates. X.1 to X.3 are mostly the updates that focus on tying up loose ends before moving towards the next expansion.

For now we are just tying up loose ends left over from Endwalker storyline. Then we may get our real hint to 7.0 expansion in 6.4 to 6.55 like all previous expansions.

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Originally Posted by EdwinLi

Yes, that is mostly because they never really start focusing on where the next expansion will go until X.4 MSQ updates. X.1 to X.3 are mostly the updates that focus on tying up loose ends before moving towards the next expansion.

For now we are just tying up loose ends left over from Endwalker storyline. Then we may get our real hint to 7.0 expansion in 6.4 to 6.55 like all previous expansions.

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Right I agree, that’s why I think we shouldn’t put all our chips the current 13th focus to remain. In my mind it’s 50% chance for void expansion, 30% Meracydia, 20% Wildcard. But I’ve been wrong many a time before sooooo

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

Right I agree, that’s why I think we shouldn’t put all our chips the current 13th focus to remain. In my mind it’s 50% chance for void expansion, 30% Meracydia, 20% Wildcard. But I’ve been wrong many a time before sooooo

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I don't think we will get all the remaining shards in 7.0 but only one shard per expansion.

My best guess is that Season 2 will have the new Season 2 antagonist be a Multi-shard level threat and WoL has to travel to the remaining shards to stop their plans on each one per expansion.

That way SE can release one shard and one or two locations on the Source per expansion. They may establish lore that WoL must first go to the X and Y location on the Source so they can travel to X or Y shard due to maybe requiring a strong link only provided in a certain area on the Source for each different shard.

Please let's not have a whole new shard every expansion without properly exploring any of them, or the rest of the Source.

...Yeah, I'd really just like to have a grounded and focused expansion that only takes place in a single major region like HW/ShB instead of jumping around the world/time/dimensions.

I like getting to revisit older regions in side content, but I feel like having the MSQ take place in such a wide variety of places was detrimental to the storytelling of SB and EW in the long run because it necessitates that things have to move more quickly then feels natural.

Also, deciding 'let's go to another completely new shard and maybe meet and absorb all the other Azem shards' is gonna get SUPER boring after like, the fourth even if you think it's cool right now.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

Please let's not have a whole new shard every expansion without properly exploring any of them, or the rest of the Source.

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Emet did literally Spoiled that we will go to each remaining Shard in Season 2. Lore reason so far is a mystery but it does appear, from Emet said, there will be a reason for that to happen. However, how much of the shards maybe explored is unknown when they start out since the development team can always release more locations of the shards we can already explore in future expansions. Emet also spoiled to us that we will explore the remaining location of the Source as well. Only question remains is how will SE manage releasing all of the remaining location in the Source with all of the Shards in Season 2.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

Also, deciding 'let's go to another completely new shard and maybe meet and absorb all the other Azem shards' is gonna get SUPER boring after like, the fourth even if you think it's cool right now.

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I don't think we will ever get the fusing with a shard part of WoL again. If anything, it maybe just accepting these fragments of Azem as separate people and let them live their own life. Part of the entire story leading up to Endwalker since Shadowbringer is to accept all life matters even when they don't agree with each other.

I feel some people are too focused with the thought that WoL "must" fuse with the remaining Shards of Azem when WoL meets them when he/she does not and they can be their own characters that continue to live their own life separate from WoL.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

...Yeah, I'd really just like to have a grounded and focused expansion that only takes place in a single major region like HW/ShB instead of jumping around the world/time/dimensions.

I like getting to revisit older regions in side content, but I feel like having the MSQ take place in such a wide variety of places was detrimental to the storytelling of SB and EW in the long run because it necessitates that things have to move more quickly then feels natural.

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Ya SB and EW does appear to be the more scattered plot wise due to trying to cover multiple region's plot within one storyline. A focused region expansion is still possible to make with release of lesser regions though but the lesser region plot will obviously have to be moved to being X.X era MSQ or side optional storylines unless events are related to what is happening to the focused region. Guild Wars 2 does this, as a example, with their expansion plots being that the expansion release a entire region focus storyline for the expansion storyline then in update schedule storylines they focus more on the lesser regions plot wise. However, GW2 has the advantage of releasing new Maps in their major updates to pull this off so if SE wish to pull this off, they have to release these lesser regions in advance in the expansion either as a starting region that act as the Gate into the Focused region of the expansion or a location WoL has to go to for a short time because MSQ plot reasons then return there in X.X MSQ because now something important is happening there related to the aftermath of X.0 expansion.

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Originally Posted by EdwinLi

Emet did literally Spoiled that we will go to each remaining Shard in Season 2.

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No, he has not. At least, not in a way that requires us to spend every expansion travelling to a new one and having to start over on worldbuilding every time.

He has suggested it is something we should do at some point. No urgency.

It could just be the writers setting up the option to draw on it much later in the game's lifecycle when we've finished pursuing our current adventure and have exhausted ideas here.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

No, he has not. At least, not in a way that requires us to spend every expansion travelling to a new one and having to start over on worldbuilding every time.

He has suggested it is something we should do at some point. No urgency.

It could just be the writers setting up the option to draw on it much later in the game's lifecycle when we've finished pursuing our current adventure and have exhausted ideas here.

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Either way, we are all just guessing at this point since we are in Season 2 Prologue and the very early stages where the focus of the plot is just clean up work for any unfinished Endwalker storylines.

We won't get any confirmation on where Season 2 will focus on MSQ wise until maybe 6.4 or 6.55 like always with each expansion storylines. They can very much never allow us to even touch the remaining shards if they wanted to and have us only exploring the Source only.

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Originally Posted by EdwinLi

I don't think we will ever get the fusing with a shard part of WoL again. If anything, it maybe just accepting these fragments of Azem as separate people and let them live their own life.

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Frankly, I'm not interested in this at all. The only reason it worked with Ardbert is because we didn't know until near the end of 5.0 and merged shortly thereafter. I want my WoL to be whole not pal around with their fragments.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

Frankly, I'm not interested in this at all. The only reason it worked with Ardbert is because we didn't know until near the end of 5.0 and merged shortly thereafter. I want my WoL to be whole not pal around with their fragments.

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No matter the choice, not everyone will be happy with SE choice on the storyline. That is just how things are since different people want the story to follow different directions.

Not to mention, I doubt WoL will get to pal around anyways if he/she meet his/her remaining fragments. At best they may meet but we won't know they are a fragment or know on the start due to the Echo, we never meet the fragment until a specific side content, we will never meet the fragment because he/she never crosspath with WoL, or the fragment has already passed on so WoL will never meet the fragment. I think the other part people focus too much on is that WoL must meet all fragments of Azem if they go to each shard when they do not need to do that. They all have their own lives to follow so there is no reason to force this type of plot into WoL's story if WoL does travel to each Shard in Season 2.

Heck, as I said before, SE may never touch the shard in Season 2 if they wanted so we may never meet the remaining fragments of Azem nor learn what life path they have taken. Though since Emet spoiled WoL will eventually go to each shard I won't be surprised the whole exploring the remaining shard becomes more of "leave it to the player's imagination" event for the ending of Season 2 as a way to send of WoL to a unknown journey no one will have stories about due to no one knowing what happened on the Shards in the Source. Part of FF14 plot is that all the current stories (both MSQ and side stories) we go through are actually stories being told by someone either through word of mouth or a book recording WoL's adventures on the Source.

Either way we just have to wait and see where Season 2 takes us Main story wise which probably won't happen until 6.4 or 6.55.

The best way to describe what to prepare for Season 2 plot is just be very open to MSQ going in a direction that is expect while also a direction that is not expect while also expecting it to go the direction not expect.

The only reason why the rejoining with Ardbert made sense was because he had since given up his body, making him a soul without a host. If there was a fragment of Azem floating around in the 13th, that might be another possibility. But you can't go around randomly killing people just to claim their souls for your own.

I honestly do not even want to hear another mention of Azem's shards. It would be contrived to keep finding them in every reflection (even if we do have our uncanny sense of attracting important people to us) and absolutely out of the question to go claiming all their souls.

We are not killing them, and having the story produce other guiltless convoluted ways to claim them on a regular basis is an unattractive premise.

Highlander rules. There can only be one. :P

It's no secret I hate everything about the sundering, especially having a split soul. I just don't know what purpose going to the other shards would serve, honestly. It would be interesting if we find out at least one of them is already dead having exterminated itself in one of the myriad of ways depicted in Ultima Thule. I doubt it'd happen, but it'd be nice if they addressed the fact that in trying to avoid one potential outcome, the sundering made them susceptible to many others.

Having 4 full planets + the void (and I suppose the possibility of returning to the First) just seems excessive, especially when we haven't fully explored the Source yet. Every one being some version of the First or 13th where for reasons we can only visit a small part of each would be ridiculous too. I'm definitely not interested in shard hopping to save mostly desolate star copies.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

Highlander rules. There can only be one. :P

It's no secret I hate everything about the sundering, especially having a split soul. I just don't know what purpose going to the other shards would serve, honestly. It would be interesting if we find out at least one of them is already dead having exterminated itself in one of the myriad of ways depicted in Ultima Thule. I doubt it'd happen, but it'd be nice if they addressed the fact that in trying to avoid one potential outcome, the sundering made them susceptible to many others.

Having 4 full planets + the void (and I suppose the possibility of returning to the First) just seems excessive, especially when we haven't fully explored the Source yet. Every one being some version of the First or 13th where for reasons we can only visit a small part of each would be ridiculous too. I'm definitely not interested in shard hopping to save mostly desolate star copies.

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The whole exploring other shards is probably going to be explained in 6.4 to 6.55 or maybe 7.0 since we are still in the early stages of Season 2 storyline.

As I said before, if we have to go to each remaining Shard in Season 2 then it is most likely to stop the new Season 2 Antagonists since their plans on these Shard may lead to catastrophic effects on the source that we are unaware about currently.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

The only reason why the rejoining with Ardbert made sense was because he had since given up his body, making him a soul without a host. If there was a fragment of Azem floating around in the 13th, that might be another possibility. But you can't go around randomly killing people just to claim their souls for your own.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

I honestly do not even want to hear another mention of Azem's shards. It would be contrived to keep finding them in every reflection (even if we do have our uncanny sense of attracting important people to us) and absolutely out of the question to go claiming all their souls.

We are not killing them, and having the story produce other guiltless convoluted ways to claim them on a regular basis is an unattractive premise.

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I honestly, don't get why people are so fixed on "if we go to each remaining shard we must claim the Azem fragments." SE can make a entire expansion storyline involving a Shard as the focus region without even meeting Azem's fragment in MSQ. Maybe do a small cameo for one of them at the end of a expansion story before WoL returns to the Source as a small moment in their life where they see each other but go their separate ways after because their stories are set on different paths that may never cross again. As I said before, there is no need to have the remaining Azem's fragments to play important roles in MSQ since they all have their own life to follow and a life that can be just put as side storylines or remain a complete mystery to follow the idea that while we know WoL's story, we will never know the story of the Azem fragment in that shard because he/she walks a different journey we don't follow. They can appear in side content or once in a while encounters but there is no need to make them MSQ plot relevent and force them to fuse with WoL.

I think people are far too focused on the whole Azem fragment side plot to really think about anything else involving why WoL will go to the remaining Shards MSQ wise at this point since we do not have the plot reason currently to go to each remaining Shard yet when we will obviously get that reason later.

The focus now in MSQ for Season 2 prologue is to finish up unfinished busniess from Endwalker and to establish how WoL will be able to travel to the remaining shards which Y'shtola is currently researching and just started making some kind of progress.

My best guess the reason to go to each remaining shard, beyond just Emet saying so, may appear in 6.4 or 6.55. The whole Zeno's Voidsent plot and 13th shard plot in Season 2 prologue MSQ currently, for me atleast, feels more like a red herring to the actual antagonists of Season 2. That or SE choose to not reveal the Season 2 Antagonist and anything relevent to Season 2 until 7.0 so they can setup 7.0 as the 2.0 of Season 2 so the Season 2 plot remains a clean slate beginning designed to establish our Season 2 goals like 2.0 did with Season 1.

If rumors are true that SE plan to have a "choose where you start" storyline for 7.0 involving players choosing to start their character as lvl 1 in 2.0 MSQ or lvl 90 with a new character, 7.0 may end up with slight dialogue changes based on players who are starting a New character in 7.0 MSQ and a character who reached 7.0 MSQ by going through 2.0 to 6.55. If they go this route then it will be better to have 7.0 focus purely on a new region in the Source to establish the importance of our character to the Season 2 storyline and what threats the Season 2 Antagonists will cause before WoL can start exploring the remaining shards in 8.0 and beyond. Though ideally, I think, that region should be the New World since now with the War with Garlemald over, the countries of Eorzea may dedicate more effort into exploring the unknown regions of the Source and establish exploration teams to these unknown regions.

Dedicating a entire expansion to the New World region may also give them a chance to establish lore areas in the New World we will not go to yet until future expansions. There is also opportunity to establish lore for new jobs based on New World Locations. While going to remaining regions around Eorzea is expect, current story looks like SE establish them to eventually open but mostly as small regions such as Meracydia due to establishling lore in advance most of these regions are too dangerous to explore outside a select amount of regions.

I have doubts that we're even going to have a dedicated larger-scale antagonist for the next story arc and instead will run into more incidental antagonists like Thordan whose goals just happen to be troubling the inhabitants of a region we're investigating to isolate the cause of some bigger problem (Which has been foreshadowed in some regards already).

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

I have doubts that we're even going to have a dedicated larger-scale antagonist for the next story arc and instead will run into more incidental antagonists like Thordan whose goals just happen to be troubling the inhabitants of a region we're investigating to isolate the cause of some bigger problem (Which has been foreshadowed in some regards already).

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That was kind of how Season 1 story played out for atleast the eyes of the public that do not know about the Ascians.

Each expansion story only ended up being connected because of Ascians but when you remove the knowledge the Ascians are involved, these stories appear to look like just isolated incidents involving different antagonists the WoL just happen to resolve and end up benefiting WoL's goals in the long run.

Makes me wonder how much of the Ascian being involved are even being told in the stories and books made about WoL's journey to the public. From the side stories so far, most of the stories focus more on the bigger battles without including the Ascians involvment a such as Thordan Ultimate as a example.

If we're going to do any shard hopping, it will likely be a singular expansion. Think about it. Excluding the 1st, there are 5 shards we would need to go to, 5 REGIONS, when we normally get 6. It would all fit into a single expansion that would probably end the 2nd Season, ending with a final area that would likely either be the Underworld, or some other unnamed area where we deal with one final threat dealing with the "Seven Wedges" plot. Because the wedge dealing with the 1st will likely be done in some manner before we even find out that's what we're doing.

I dunno - personally I’m excited for the Azem shards and all they entail. I’m not sure I can see the writers ignoring the basic premise of “Hey. You (but not you) got split into 14 different pieces - and so did your (but not your) planet and friends.” At some point those Chekhov Shards gotta either get put back together, or rendered forever separate. Either way that means addressing the missing pieces in the story.

Perhaps one way to think about all this, is that the writers chose to set the game on the Source - with its partially assembled characters (including our own) as the main POV characters for the story. If they had negative feelings, or a general disinterest in the through-line of collecting the Azem shards - they might’ve set the game on a reflection where our characters had little to no chance of collecting other Azem Shards - and might even possibly view the people of the Source as monstrous beings.

Instead our characters have been specifically placed by the writers - giving them the tools, allies, and even possibly a personal narrative that would allow them to hop from reflection to reflection and collect their shards.

Initially I thought this would take a loooooong time to wrap up, and maybe even be part of how the MSQ might wrap in the final expansion. However, if it’s true that 7.0 might be a reset of sorts - then perhaps we’ll collect all the Azem bits sooner rather than later, as a way to prime that reset.

The “Azem Shard” story could be resolved very quickly, especially if the denizens of the Void (who can also hop from reflection to reflection) have done some collecting for us already…

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Originally Posted by Shookbeast

At some point those Chekhov Shards gotta either get put back together, or rendered forever separate.

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That's the thing. They have been rendered separate and we've been given no reason to think that we need to do anything further to "properly" separate them.

The rejoining was a threat that we needed to stop. We stopped it.

We don't need to do anything more about our other personal shards unless the writers bring in a new plot point to say we can't just leave things as they currently are.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

That's the thing. They have been rendered separate and we've been given no reason to think that we need to do anything further to "properly" separate them.

The rejoining was a threat that we needed to stop. We stopped it.

We don't need to do anything more about our other personal shards unless the writers bring in a new plot point to say we can't just leave things as they currently are.

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I’m not entirely convinced the rejoinings have stopped. There’s even the theory that without Hydaelyn the Sundering may begin to undo itself. We also have reflections in states of great distress such as the Void - and other reflections that are all wildcards at this point. (One Reflection could even be a relatively unchanged Ancient world with largely unaltered denizens still hanging out post-sundering. We really don’t know what’s in store for us out there.)

As far as our own shards - what I’m saying is that by the writers specifically choosing to write a story about reflections, shards, and a main character affected by both - it seems highly unlikely they’ll spend all that time laying groundwork, and then just ignore it. They’ve dropped plot lines before - but not the central conceit of their game. If anything, they’re doubling down with all the chatter about reflection hopping and focus on Azem breadcrumbs. If they had no intention to follow through - why set a character with these traits, in a world with these plot points?

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Originally Posted by Shookbeast

As far as our own shards - what I’m saying is that by the writers specifically choosing to write a story about reflections, shards, and a main character affected by both - it seems highly unlikely they’ll spend all that time laying groundwork, and then just ignore it. They’ve dropped plot lines before - but not the central conceit of their game.

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I don't think our personal shards are the conceit of the game. The shattered world, yes, and our personal link to the past via having Azem's soul, but the "groundwork" of establishing the Sundering hasn't gone to waste at all. It's already been thoroughly used for the game to date and the plot arc that has just wrapped up.

Chekhov's gun got put on the mantelpiece in Heavensward and fired in Endwalker. Maybe it will get used again, but it doesn't have to be, because the setup has already paid off.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

I don't think our personal shards are the conceit of the game. The shattered world, yes, and our personal link to the past via having Azem's soul, but the "groundwork" of establishing the Sundering hasn't gone to waste at all. It's already been thoroughly used for the game to date and the plot arc that has just wrapped up.

Chekhov's gun got put on the mantelpiece in Heavensward and fired in Endwalker. Maybe it will get used again, but it doesn't have to be, because the setup has already paid off.

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I’m not sure that’s true either. We (sort of) wrapped up the conflict between H&Z - but the continuing story we’re seeing unfolding right now through the patches is already discussing the Void and other reflections. Main characters are actively looking for ways to travel to other reflections. And Azem continues to be mentioned in the game.

So perhaps we’re seeing “Chekhov’s Shards” being used, right at this moment - but the writers don’t seem to be finished with them.

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Originally Posted by Shookbeast

I’m not entirely convinced the rejoinings have stopped. There’s even the theory that without Hydaelyn the Sundering may begin to undo itself. We also have reflections in states of great distress such as the Void - and other reflections that are all wildcards at this point. (One Reflection could even be a relatively unchanged Ancient world with largely unaltered denizens still hanging out post-sundering. We really don’t know what’s in store for us out there.)

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Is there anything ingame that support such a theory? Because if Hydealyns death would undo the sundering why would the Ascians not just simply try to find a way to her and to kill her?

As far as the state of the reflections: Emet says that we should visit them and that we may be surprised to what we find there. I doubt he meant in the way of: We will find out that they are basically all falling apart and the best solution would be to rejoin them.

Honestly for me the theme felt like: Its okay to be these imperfect beings. We are not worth less than the whole ones. Why then would SE turn around and be like: But now lets just rejoin us anyways. (Especially since rejoining does mean the death of a whole shard...I doubt that we would do that especially after being friends with Ryne and Gaia and all the other people on the first)

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Originally Posted by Alleo

Is there anything ingame that support such a theory? Because if Hydealyns death would undo the sundering why would the Ascians not just simply try to find a way to her and to kill her?

As far as the state of the reflections: Emet says that we should visit them and that we may be surprised to what we find there. I doubt he meant in the way of: We will find out that they are basically all falling apart and the best solution would be to rejoin them.

Honestly for me the theme felt like: Its okay to be these imperfect beings. We are not worth less than the whole ones. Why then would SE turn around and be like: But now lets just rejoin us anyways. (Especially since rejoining does mean the death of a whole shard...I doubt that we would do that especially after being friends with Ryne and Gaia and all the other people on the first)

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I didn’t mean to infer that if we find a reflection in distress - then we’d force it to rejoin. There are plenty of ways we could collect Azem shards without forcing a star to rejoin with the source. (Also, there are plenty of ways for our WOL to collect Azem shards without being the one to murder them). And I think the writers want the reflections to hang around for story-telling reasons. (Although I wouldn’t put it past the writers to do an expansion down the line centered on a surprise calamity/rejoining and all the upheaval/zone re-design that would cause).

And I agree with your stated theme - but I don’t see it conflicting with the possibility of our WOLs somehow becoming Azem. We may find out that being Azem (and an Ancient) isn’t all it’s cracked up to be. Or we may find out that the only way to save the day is by embracing our flaws - which seems very Azem-y to me. Azem stands out as an Ancient who didn’t fit in - which would likely be how we would behave as an Ancient.

As far as the theory about the reflections deteriorating without Hydaelyn- that’s just speculation as far as I know. But plausible speculation given how Zodiark is fading away across all reflections. If he and his influence/parts seem to be poofing out - the same may be possible for Hydaelyn.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

Is there anything ingame that support such a theory? Because if Hydealyns death would undo the sundering why would the Ascians not just simply try to find a way to her and to kill her?

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It's been stated at times that without intrusive forces at play, the natural order of the world tends to try to correct itself. In the case of Zodiark, the alterations he had made to the aetherial flows were undone almost immediately, so I would be very surprised if the removal of a god of stability did not have consequences.

Considering that the Ascians were taking it slow with the rejoinings in order to avoid potentially destroying the Source entirely, I feel like even if they thought getting rid of Hydaelyn could potentially solve the problem in one fell swoop they probably wouldn't out of fear of potential repercussions.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

Considering that the Ascians were taking it slow with the rejoinings in order to avoid potentially destroying the Source entirely, I feel like even if they thought getting rid of Hydaelyn could potentially solve the problem in one fell swoop they probably wouldn't out of fear of potential repercussions.

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The Ascians weren't taking it slow with Rejoinings because the Source was 'fragile' or anything. They were taking it slow because civilization on the Source is blasted back to somewhere in the Iron Age almost every time they crack out a Calamity. It's hard to orchestrate a worldwide doomsday event using people for whom large boats might be a tall ask.

Remember that the one time the Source did survive a Calamity with a minimum of destruction, the next attempt at a Calamity was five years later. Possibly even less time than that, depending on when you think Emmerololth started to take her crack at Eureka. The Ascians moved fast when opportunity presented itself.

That makes me further question as to why the Ascians didn't just aim to cause calamities that minimize the damage to civilization so that they can proceed with their plans quicker then they did (Though I feel like the writer's answer to that would be "for the evulz/dramatics"). You'd think they could've just found a nice, isolated place to build some manner of elemental weapon of mass destruction to set off once one of the shards is primed for a rejoining instead of relying so heavily on mankind's folly.

It also makes me wonder what circumstances for the calamities of wind, fire, and ice occurred under.

I think they just didn't consider that enough to make that plan. The way the Seventh Calamity turned out was a surprise to everyone, so I think the Ascians had accepted for all that time that this was gonna be what they had to do. After all, why would they go for a more localized plan? They clearly weren't impatient people, so doing it faster wasn't a priority. And they very clearly didn't care about the lives of others, so they wouldn't have done it for reasons of kindness.

Combine that with the fact that if they balls up the timing on the Source they cause another Thirteenth situation, they probably aren't inclined towards changing the formula, either. The way they're doing things works, and none of the potential downsides of it are actually problems to them, so why do anything different?

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Originally Posted by Shookbeast

I didn’t mean to infer that if we find a reflection in distress - then we’d force it to rejoin. There are plenty of ways we could collect Azem shards without forcing a star to rejoin with the source. (Also, there are plenty of ways for our WOL to collect Azem shards without being the one to murder them). And I think the writers want the reflections to hang around for story-telling reasons. (Although I wouldn’t put it past the writers to do an expansion down the line centered on a surprise calamity/rejoining and all the upheaval/zone re-design that would cause).

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It would go against the theme though because they would say: Well the rest should be fine with being imperfect beings but the WoL somehow needs to have all their shards restored.

I just dont see how that would really further the story at all. What would it bring to it? What would it truly give to the WoL? Since we dont really get some old memories back when we get rejoined with Ardbert I also doubt we would suddenly gain some insight on Azem. And even if we did, what would that truly change? The WoL is not THE Azem. We are reborn as a new person, with new loved ones, with new experiences. We wont just be Azem again, that one is death.

And it would make the WoL even more powerful that they are right now...which enemy should even stand a chance against a fully restored WoL who can just bascially use creation magic on a whim?

Yes some of Zodiark influence is decreasing but that is only for the parts that were still active, like the shroud of aether to ward of Meteion. Of course the planet would see noticeable changes when the aether suddenly gets much thinner. If anything he ever did was changed though then we would all die because he was the one undoing all the damage the Final Days caused. So if Hydealyns sundering, which was a one time act and not something she had to do over an over, somehow now is reversing then by logic all of Zodiark action would too. Which means everyone will die.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

And it would make the WoL even more powerful that they are right now...which enemy should even stand a chance against a fully restored WoL who can just bascially use creation magic on a whim?

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There is already nothing able to stand a chance or touch us. It’s been this way for multiple expansions now. Nothing has been able to touch us or the scions l, and if a universal threat couldn’t even do that then nothing will at this point. I’m not sure why it’s all of a sudden a problem now in the case of us restoring our azem shards. It’s quite literally how the game has been from the start. We always win with very little struggle. As far as furthering the story i mean….it would be a nice casually undoing the horrific events the sundering caused i’d say that’s a pretty good point. As for what would it bring to the story….what does scion plot armor abs constant death flags that amount to nothing bring to the story?

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Originally Posted by Alleo

It would go against the theme though because they would say: Well the rest should be fine with being imperfect beings but the WoL somehow needs to have all their shards restored.

I just dont see how that would really further the story at all. What would it bring to it? What would it truly give to the WoL? Since we dont really get some old memories back when we get rejoined with Ardbert I also doubt we would suddenly gain some insight on Azem. And even if we did, what would that truly change? The WoL is not THE Azem. We are reborn as a new person, with new loved ones, with new experiences. We wont just be Azem again, that one is death.

And it would make the WoL even more powerful that they are right now...which enemy should even stand a chance against a fully restored WoL who can just bascially use creation magic on a whim?

Yes some of Zodiark influence is decreasing but that is only for the parts that were still active, like the shroud of aether to ward of Meteion. Of course the planet would see noticeable changes when the aether suddenly gets much thinner. If anything he ever did was changed though then we would all die because he was the one undoing all the damage the Final Days caused. So if Hydealyns sundering, which was a one time act and not something she had to do over an over, somehow now is reversing then by logic all of Zodiark action would too. Which means everyone will die.

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Ah. Sorry, about the confusion. I’m in the camp that believes the story will eventually reveal that our WOL is literally Azem, and that we’ll collect our remaining soul shards as part of a story arc that sees us going back in time - before the events of Elpis. Once we go back in time, that’s when we establish ourselves as Azem (or whatever we’re called before Venat steps down as Azem and we assume the title). So there’s no Azem (WOL Azem) before the moment in time we appear. This would explain why all the Ancients think Azem is so weird - because Azem is actually us from the future not knowing how to use our powers and preferring to punch things instead.

So if this theory holds true - it’s not really a problem about the memories or super powers or anything like that. Collecting the soul shards is all part of a bigger story that sees us going back in time to help solve a problem in the past (and probably also in the present). From there the writers may figure out a way for us to keep the timeline intact - but also progress forward in the story, and continue playing our WOL. (We likely get de-powered in the process). Or, this time travel story is truly endgame - and our WOL helps save the day - but also gets sundered - essentially closing the time-loop as the end of the very last expansion. (Not my preferred outcome, but entirely possible).

And I agree with you - indeed, if Zodiark and Hydaelyn are both gone - there could be dire consequences for all the stars. Sounds like expansion material to me.

I suspect that the player character and Azem are possibly the same person, but by the reverse explanation. My prediction is that Azem will end up travelling forward in time sometime either during the events of Pandaemonium or shortly afterwards, which is why they seemingly disappear after stepping down from the Convocation. I also predict that our foray into Pandaemonium will put us at odds with Lahabrea (possibly over killing Athena a second time after she gets turned into a hemitheos), end up with Azem taking the blame on our behalf, and result in Elidibus making his famous promise to his idol to protect the world in their stead. Bonus points if the entire Convocation shows up for one last time to mistakenly condemn Azem. I also wonder if Venat's project on Elpis with her friend involving 'concept crystals' is to create the Convocation's soul crystals, which is why an unfinished Lahabrea crystal also ends up adrift in the future in our current timeline.

I think that the alternative (i.e. the player character travelling back in time to become Azem) is less likely because it creates a Captain America situation where you permanently retire the character off.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

I suspect that the player character and Azem are possibly the same person, but by the reverse explanation. My prediction is that Azem will end up travelling forward in time sometime either during the events of Pandaemonium or shortly afterwards, which is why they seemingly disappear after stepping down from the Convocation. I also predict that our foray into Pandaemonium will put us at odds with Lahabrea (possibly over killing Athena a second time after she gets turned into a hemitheos), end up with Azem taking the blame on our behalf, and result in Elidibus making his famous promise to his idol to protect the world in their stead. Bonus points if the entire Convocation shows up for one last time to mistakenly condemn Azem. I also wonder if Venat's project on Elpis with her friend involving 'concept crystals' is to create the Convocation's soul crystals, which is why an unfinished Lahabrea crystal also ends up adrift in the future in our current timeline.

I think that the alternative (i.e. the player character travelling back in time to become Azem) is less likely because it creates a Captain America situation where you permanently retire the character off.

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That’s a pretty interesting idea. Definitely could fit in with current patches (:

How do we get Azem split up in the sundering? Do they/we go back in time again?

I like that it’s an unexpected move to have Azem hop forward instead of us going back. Would our WOL still literally be Azem somehow, or would you consider Azem to their own character, unrelated to us except by soul-chunks?

I agree with the Captain America issue - although it wouldn’t be a problem if that’s how the writers plan to end the MSQ (a loooong time from now). Or, if they do it sooner, the writers might have a plan to somehow alter the timeline so Azem/Us stays back in time, the Sundering happens, and we get to keep our WOL to continue playing in expansions going forward. I’d guess we accomplish this using some combination of Soul Crystals (with help from Venat) and perhaps Alexander.

I’m quite curious to see how they handle pandaemonium, mainly because it’s kind of extremely messed up to have us constantly go back and forth in time for it and having to interact with the ancients and just not saying anything to them about the world ending. I hope in the end it results in some sort of AU scenario where we can tell them the truth ourselves. I’d feel much better about not having to be complicit in Venat’s genocide plan and i’d love some agency

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Originally Posted by Shookbeast

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That's a good question. If Azem time travels during the events of Pandaemonium, then they'd have to be sundered before everyone else. In order for that to be the case, either Azem had figured out how to do the Argos trick and it went awry, or Venat would have to sunder Azem directly.

I think that the events of Pandaemonium are directly linked to the original Final Days. The memory inscribed on the unmarked Lahabrea crystal tells us that 'the star is in grave danger'. Also, think back to the Amaurotians' memory of how it all started:

'One day, from within the earth, a terrible cry issued forth, affecting a profound change in all manner of life.'

We know, from the case of Thavnair, that the Final Days itself didn't manifest until after Khalzahl transformed into Svarbhanu. The sky above Thavnair changed only afterwards. That suggests to me that the index case might occur in the depths of Pandaemonium. One possible reason for that despair might be if someone was turned into a hemitheos when they really didn't want to be. You'd have the perfect medium - an Amaurotian soul, but with the reduced aetheric density of creation magic. Hence the 'terrible cry' from the depths as it transforms.

I think that if Azem is blamed for the trouble at Pandaemonium, it puts the Convocation in a difficult position. Perhaps Venat intercedes to administer punishment on their behalf to render Azem bereft of power, and places a traveller's ward on us before we go into exile.

Ok, maybe I’m stupid, but how exactly could Azem travel to the future/present and us still exist? Or at least still exist in that timeline where Azem does that.

Here is a thought. Our Azem could still be literally be our WOL (through us going back in time before Elpis to get named Azem), and as we play Azem/WOL in the past, we encounter ourselves during Panda (and visa-versa, we glimpse ourselves near the end of Panda). Then we hop forward in time as Azem, (because we have story stuff we need to do in a different time period). This removes Azem from all the Z&H decisions because we’re off in the future punching things. THEN once we’re done in the future, we have to go back in time again, so Azem can get sundered.

We’ve always assumed Azem got sundered into 14 pieces (like everyone else) but what if we save a piece or two, with our WOL’s memories, and that’s what gets sent forward to the in-game present. Maybe there never was an Azem shard on the 13th, for example, because that’s the piece that gets sent forward in time to the source.

So basically we end up borrowing Ancient superpowers for a little while - but actually wind up de-powered by the end. All speculation, but I’m having a lot of fun with this Azem shard shell game (: