"Swift completion" is relative to the game, not the community

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Originally Posted by MaxCarnage

Two opposing parties... So like... opposition....

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Usually with opposition one party is implied which opposes the view of the other party, instead of both parties considering themselves as being the opposition. At least, that’s how it always has struck me, English not being my mothertongue tho.

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Originally Posted by Xirean

I would just like to chime in real quick. If the point Nishira is trying to make is the word selection when trying to help someone then I'd agree. I notice that people tend to use more direct language on forums as opposed to in game.

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That’s definitely a part of it yeah :)

Anyway, I’ll sort of gracefully exit this thread and stop boring y’all :D

I still think trying to think in solutions might work more in your favour. Open up a thread addressed at SE how advice and feedback so easily being dismissed as elitist toxicity or harassment is stifling player growth and meaningul player interaction. Gather your troops, like the hell out of it, see if you can get it to gain traction and try open up a discussion with SE because I understand how their behaviour in this may fuel this particular frustration instead of helping with it.

Request class stickies for good, up to date gameplay guides on the role forums. Explain how that would help new/inexperienced players and how being able to refer them there would be a good thing.

Just two examples, maybe not the best ones, you can probably think up better but this is pretty much what I mean. If something frustrates you and you have sound reasoning for it, try changing it. It may do nothing, maybe it’s already been tried to no avail in which case the frustration would only make more sense, but even then a proper new discussion should not be off the table.

Anyway, I’m off to enjoy the autumn sun!

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Originally Posted by Xirean

I would just like to chime in real quick. If the point Nishira is trying to make is the word selection when trying to help someone then I'd agree. I notice that people tend to use more direct language on forums as opposed to in game.

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because the thin-skinned, overly nice community will report you if you call out someone that's basically griefing everyone
why risk your account?

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Originally Posted by Nishira

Anyway, I’ll sort of gracefully exit this thread and stop boring y’all :D

I still think trying to think in solutions might work more in your favour. Open up a thread addressed at SE how advice and feedback so easily being dismissed as elitist toxicity or harassment is stifling player growth and meaningul player interaction. Gather your troops, like the hell out of it, see if you can get it to gain traction and try open up a discussion with SE because I understand how their behaviour in this may fuel this particular frustration instead of helping with it.

Request class stickies for good, up to date gameplay guides on the role forums. Explain how that would help new/inexperienced players and how being able to refer them there would be a good thing.

Just two examples, maybe not the best ones, you can probably think up better but this is pretty much what I mean. If something frustrates you and you have sound reasoning for it, try changing it. It may do nothing, maybe it’s already been tried to no avail in which case the frustration would only make more sense, but even then a proper new discussion should not be off the table.

Anyway, I’m off to enjoy the autumn sun!

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there's a huge and I mean huge chance that a topic like that will get destroyed by the people who "we" are criticizing and more importantly by the ones enabling and feverishly defending them, tbh

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Originally Posted by Nishira

Usually with opposition one party is implied which opposes the view of the other party, instead of both parties considering themselves as being the opposition. At least, that’s how it always has struck me, English not being my mothertongue tho.

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Opposition is, to be put simply, when two sides disagree. For example, your arguments and Kolaina's arguments oppose each other, as you disagree at the core of it. So it's opposition.

Either way, I understand the anxiety of being called out in a group setting. I have struggled with that for a while. And in turn, I always sugar-coated advice I gave as I didn't want others to be put on the spot, and I, in turn, did not want to get yelled at. But I was told that by sugar-coating advice, and tip-toeing around whether it'll hurt someone's feelings or not often causes the message to be skewed. Turns what I'm saying into something else completely.

But as someone with bad anxiety, not wanting to be put on the spot like that, whenever I did get advice, I would try my absolute hardest to implement it in my playstyle. My way of thinking was, "if someone gave me advice, and I don't like the attention, I'll take that advice and hopefully in the future, no one else will call me out like that." It was a motivating factor to strive for better.

I know what I'm saying is anecdotal. However, I find the reasoning, "people don't take advice because it gives them anxiety" silly. I don't like that situation. I don't like being told what I'm doing wrong. Especially in a group setting by a stranger. But that made me want to be better to avoid that ever happening again.

Advice doesn't always have to be demeaning. It can be encouraging. But it does have to be direct. It's important not to lose the message.

As a Main Tank myself I tend to ask the healer if they want me to pull big or no, and I'm totally fine with either. In the end if I pull big and the healer cant handle it we are just gonna waste more time than if I do small pulls, and the purpose is to have a good time.

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Originally Posted by Xirean

I would just like to chime in real quick. If the point Nishira is trying to make is the word selection when trying to help someone then I'd agree. I notice that people tend to use more direct language on forums as opposed to in game.

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I mean if you say anything in game, you can get banned/reported, even if said nicely because the person "didn't want any unsolicited advice". Like if I see a tank on lvl 80 spamming only 1 2 3 on a mob pack, a dps that you know isn't doing any dps because you see them -only use jolt-, etc. You should be able to say something, especially as a mentor without a fear of getting banned because you need to be an ableist and carry people that are ok with doing 400 dps at lvl 80 as a sam (yes, I've seen that from a friend that didn't believe her eyes after it happened).

Like being toxic and bashing them on it is bad but even if you are nice you'll get shit one so no one dare to say anything in game even nicely. Try to tell someone "Hey, you seem to struggle a bit, try to use your spells like that" and if you get one "positive" answer out of 10, you are considered lucky.

So yeah people on the forum are more snappy because seeing people being ok with single pulling as a tank when you can do that with a dps tanking instead while people defend them to the grave is .. eh?

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Originally Posted by Aiscence

I mean if you say anything in game, you can get banned/reported, even if said nicely because the person "didn't want any unsolicited advice".

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And yet I have not been banned for giving unsolicited advice...
While "expressions that compel a playing style" is mentioned in prohibited behaviour, it's specifically under "Offensive Expressions," which to me says if you're rude/mean with your advice (swears, slurs, insults) then you risk a ban. So if you want to tell a RDM that just spamming Jolt isn't how to play RDM, or a tank doing a single-target rotation in a pack of mobs (inevitably having them go after the healer, which could fall under nuisance behaviour or MPK) should AoE, you shouldn't/won't be banned if you're neutral/nice about it.

I read that you have left the thread but shall respond for posterity sake.

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Originally Posted by Nishira

Thank you for the laugh. But you know, if telling people how they should play is working for you, great! From what I gather of these discussions it’s not tho. And personally I think trying to understand why something does not work is more useful because there may be potential solutions there instead of having to settle for frustration.

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There are mixed experiences giving the advice, it is most random! Some say nothing and do not improve, others respond (mostly sprouts in low level dungeons) with positivity, some are hostile. I do not need to stop and postulate why the tank refuses to put stance on or the deeps is not aoeing during trash pulls. I will simply ask to do this and kick if they do not. The only solution is to do the thing, aoe during pulls or put the stance on, etc. I am not nor are my friends obligated to tolerate dying nine times in the dungeon or being there for 40 minutes when there is kick feature.

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Originally Posted by Nishira

I think at its heart the main issue might just be phrasing. I’ll try to explain what I mean.

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(iron will)(please use it) or Tank your stance! maybe mister tank level sync disabled your tank stance. I do not and my friends and family are not opening this with "Omg stoopid dragoon doesn't know what doomspike is". I believe this is what others assume we are doing, but you know what assuming does. What I do not have to do is spend inordinate lengths of time explaining why something is better during content. I can, we try, but this is not necessary and is not my job to do.

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Originally Posted by Nishira

In essence one could argue, if anything, it shows a lot of people behave very similarly! They may just be on different sides of a discussion. Most of the time the answer will be somewhere in the middle. From personal experience I’d say accepting people may make different choices and/or may be different from you, trying to understand their reasoning and keeping it in mind with how you approach stuff, and trying to figure out ways to encourage people in positive ways to experiment and learn might make these discussions less polarised and who knows, maybe result in something that has a positive impact for each side.

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There are plethora of the things that are not worth discussing during a duty. We will ask for bigger pulls. We will tell someone they should aoe. Beyond this? No. I will not "accept the difference in choice" of the level 80 black mage spamming blizzard 2 at range during trash pulls. I shall ask them to stop and kick them when they do not. Depending on situation I will guide them to Wesker or other content creators that make reasonable guides aimed towards newer players.

Everyone is entitled to make all the decision and choices for how to play that they wish. What they are not entitled to is wasting another's time or causing grief to my friends and family. If they are entitled to play style choice I am entitled to *a party member has been dismissed from the duty*.

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Originally Posted by Izscha

And it's never ok to waste 10+ more min because someone think that things must go his way no matter what.

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I'm honestly befuddled by all the hostility towards someone who wants to leisurely enjoy their leisure time. I'm beginning to suspect the difference is generational. I remember being a kid and having to wait hours in line for a single ride at Disneyland. In contrast, when I took my kids, we picked up a fast pass that held our place until we were about 20 minutes out. It's disheartening to see the overwhelming majority of FFXIV forum goers upvoting tantrums over spending a few extra minutes in the dungeon. Thankfully, I don't see this as much in the game itself. If I did, I would be inclined to simply unsub and find something fun to do that doesn't entail someone shouting at me to hurry up.

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Originally Posted by Ronduwil

I'm honestly befuddled by all the hostility towards someone who wants to leisurely enjoy their leisure time. I'm beginning to suspect the difference is generational. I remember being a kid and having to wait hours in line for a single ride at Disneyland. In contrast, when I took my kids, we picked up a fast pass that held our place until we were about 20 minutes out. It's disheartening to see the overwhelming majority of FFXIV forum goers upvoting tantrums over spending a few extra minutes in the dungeon. Thankfully, I don't see this as much in the game itself. If I did, I would be inclined to simply unsub and find something fun to do that doesn't entail someone shouting at me to hurry up.

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I dunno man, back in my day everyone actually tried. You didn't tend to see people getting away with just getting carried through content.

It goes both ways lol.

There's a meme about tic tac toe that works pretty well here, but I'm too lazy to dig it up on mobile.

The "it's just a game" excuse is one that I really hate, because it's not just effecting you. It's effecting everyone else you are with.

Well, after a thankfully low grand total of two bad experiences, (both healers in Shisui of the Violet Tides, which is oddly specific), I have leveled every tanking job to 70 or higher. 70-71 is the province of pixie dailies, and so I can confidently say that while thankfully my experience has been largely positive, a lot of this thread has more than convinced me to never, ever tank for live players (in a trinity compliant 4-person group or "non-MSQ-roulette" situation) ever again unless it's backfill for a group of friends.

Vocal segments of this community here on the forums have a real problem with taking their years of experience in the game for granted in their expectations of others that are just leveling an alt job whose role is one of either sudden burden of leadership (tank) or suddenly inheriting the fates of everyone's survival (healer). I don't care that deep dungeons are an option (that is in fact how I leveled my healers), what I've seen in this thread has been largely a disappointing underscore of the darkest side of an otherwise amazing community: In creating such an arms-open community image, you have perverted the sense of communal neighborliness into a "home owner's society" of expectations of extreme, overt "care" for "everyone else before the self."

My tanking pace is fine, so sayeth far more players in groups than there were voices on this forum thread. The healer that can't handle multi-pulls (I had one last night while leveling MCH, bless her heart) is not bad at the game. Your expectations of other people adapting to the GOGOGOdancers among you are skewed, unwelcoming, and I wouldn't be at all surprised if this was part of the reason trusts exists because trusts are a solution to a problem WoW has too: As superior as FFXIV's community vibe is overall, the community's treatment of a new or less experienced player is in fact a major variable that the devs cannot control, and this thread is clearly indicative of the fact that so many of you can't be trusted to be "a feature and not a bug." Thank goodness for AI scions!

I prize the quiet "I'm not touching this discussion" likes on the more reasonable posts in this thread far more than all the discouraging, disappointing remarks that seem to demand we constantly improve "just in case I have to play with you." I have most jobs to 70 or higher (waiting for the extended armory bonus in EW to go further), 3 jobs at 80, and I can honestly say when it comes to "performance level" that there is a hard plateau in the give-a-damn spectrum that is literally, intentionally, objectively "good enough," and that bar is far, far lower than many here would have us stop "improving"... well guess what: good enough is good enough. This whole thread was about leveling content, and good enough is good enough. Yes, even on YOUR time. Shame on any of you taking your later game content standards and applying them here.

To those in this thread who were more representative of the majority I met in my "tanking through the 60's" journey, the chill, the kind, and the "go at your pace" players, the people for whom I made a macro thanking most groups for not being abusive: you have preserved my faith in this game's community. Thank you for having the courage to gainsay the angry mob of "but you need to play better because I have standards and my time is precious!!"

I come away from this thread glad that it's not the game, and will smile when we meet the closedminded "forum" of old Sharlayan, as I wonder how intentional that wordplay is.

See you in a few trials every couple years, or in the MSQ roulette. I'll be DPSing. With my priority macro rotation that I have for almost every job.

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Originally Posted by Omedon

With my priority macro rotation that I have for almost every job.

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Lol
/10 chars

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Originally Posted by Omedon

Snippity.

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https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/c...e=image%2Fjpeg

The less moral grandstanding I have to see on this board, the better.

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Originally Posted by Omedon

snip

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https://c.tenor.com/JxLUPB1mq9cAAAAd/awkward-okay.gif

Wait you use macros for combat abilities? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA everything about this thread suddenly makes so much more sense.

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Originally Posted by Omedon

With my priority macro rotation that I have for almost every job.

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I’ll elaborate beyond laughing at this. I post on an alt character because i have controversial views compared to the bleeding hearts on these forums. Ive seen people call for the mass reporting of someone in eureka for pulling a notorious monster 5 minutes after it spawned simply for not waiting for that individual. So i protect myself from those people. Those who target and attempt to ban or harass. However. I now know what kind of player you are. Refuse to try. Don’t want to get better. A macro player. You can bet you won’t go passed the 5 minute limit in a duty with me. I play with the power of vote. I don’t like to use it. But if you’re going to hold me back, and “play” (if you want to call macroing playing) with the attitude of your leisure and laziness > my time and enjoyment, well bud, your gone.

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Originally Posted by Omedon

See you in a few trials every couple years, or in the MSQ roulette. I'll be DPSing. With my priority macro rotation that I have for almost every job.

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You'll get an instant vote-kick from me too LOL

Good that we don't share the same data center.

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Originally Posted by Omedon

I don't care that deep dungeons are an option (that is in fact how I leveled my healers)

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You were repeatedly given a very easy way to level in the 61~71 range, one where no expectations exist beyond "pop the portal open quickly", where you barely have to communicate with your party much less meet a bare minimum standard of gameplay that you should know by that level... and yet you instead wanted to inflict yourself on DF, despite your proclaimed problems with it, because.. why, exactly?

Moral grandstanding? Intentionally wanting to grief people because god forbid you're expected to know some bare basics and meet basic gameplay standards at that level range?

You're honestly sad. You would rather grief people than take an option that 100% seemed more suited to your personal form of selfish playstyle, and then you come in here insulting people telling you how backwards that thinking is just because we don't fit into some weird idea you types get in your heads about how "nice" and "welcoming" this community is.

Stick to single player games if that's the attitude you're going to carry in MMOs.

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Originally Posted by Omedon

Self projection is one hell of a drug.

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https://c.tenor.com/Y5oY3MPNbM0AAAAC...thats-a-no.gif

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Originally Posted by Omedon

a lot of this thread has more than convinced me to never, ever tank for live players (in a trinity compliant 4-person group or "non-MSQ-roulette" situation) ever again

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And we are all thankful for that

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Originally Posted by Omedon

With my priority macro rotation that I have for almost every job.

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Macros are for crafters, not dps. If nothing else the rest of that post was an entertaining read I won't forget anytime soon.

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Originally Posted by Ronduwil

I'm beginning to suspect the difference is generational. I remember being a kid and having to wait hours in line for a single ride at Disneyland. In contrast, when I took my kids, we picked up a fast pass that held our place until we were about 20 minutes out.

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What a silly comparison. You didn't have to pick up a fast pass if you wanted a +45 min wait in the SoCal sun, you took it because it made for a more enjoyable day at disneyland lmao

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Originally Posted by Omedon

I'll be DPSing. With my priority macro rotation that I have for almost every job.

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I'm just going to accept that this thread is all masterful bait because the alternative is concerning.

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Originally Posted by Omedon

With my priority macro rotation that I have for almost every job.

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Oh my god this has to be bait lmao

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ees4unFU...jpg&name=small
Imagine starting a dialogue with an assertion of absolute certainty based off an assumption that when boiled down is "Don't be worse than bots" and then pretending like you actually weren't close minded from the start.

See you in neverland.

I really really really hope that DC travel doesn't make it possible to queue into the same content as those posters if they're on primal for some reason
I feel sorry for the few good ones

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Originally Posted by Ronduwil

I'm honestly befuddled by all the hostility towards someone who wants to leisurely enjoy their leisure time. I'm beginning to suspect the difference is generational. I remember being a kid and having to wait hours in line for a single ride at Disneyland. In contrast, when I took my kids, we picked up a fast pass that held our place until we were about 20 minutes out. .

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also, just for the record, your generation is where the self-entitled karen/parent thing really took off, so come again? your generation is the one where the inflated sense of self and being egocentric was at it's height
bringing things like apparent seniority is up is big cringe as well, yikes and not pog

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Macros are for crafters, not dps. If nothing else the rest of that post was an entertaining read I won't forget anytime soon.

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To clarify:

The macros that crafters use, the ones where you hit one button and skills and pauses craft an item, are not what I use in combat. Someone recommended to me similar macros for ninja abilities and they were way too slow.

A piled up priority button as a spammed fall-through serving as a “1” in a 1-2-3 standard rotation is absolutely viable if you know your limit and play within it, which I do. This doesn’t work for every class, but you might be surprised how many conditional attacks can be classified as “one more line.” I currently have about 80 macros having tackled every job in the game now, and you can’t tell me that some of these conditional attacks gated by cooldowns, gauge resources or flat out “grey until comboed” aren’t designed with the macro potential in mind, even if only as an accessibility feature.

Good enough is good enough, and the minuscule advantage of “ability queueing” isn’t big enough to discount this “spammed priority macro” from “good enough” play, especially in normal/leveling content.

Just wanted to get that clarification in, because I agree that “one press, multiple abilities” is far too slow. I’ve seen it, and it doesn’t pass my personal smell test for combative application.

Thank you for this opportunity to provide clarity.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

I dunno man, back in my day everyone actually tried. You didn't tend to see people getting away with just getting carried through content.

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Speak for yourself. I did see people getting carried. All the time. Mechanics were a lot easier back in the day, and you didn't have this wall to wall pulling culture. In fact, I distinctly remember the go go go kid being a meme that most players mocked. Times change. As for "trying," trying to do what? Just because you want to take things slowly doesn't mean you're not trying to clear the content to the best of your ability. Some players have a goal of trying to win a non-existent race, and some players set their goal at successfully clearing the instance without wiping. By the latter metric, excessive pulls put the latter goal at risk, so I contend that wall to wall pulling is the opposite of trying to succeed at safely clearing the instance. It's not that players aren't trying. It's that players are trying to do different things.

I also remember having lots of fun in WoW back in the day doing bear runs, which were effectively on a timer and entailed wall-to-wall style pulling. So it's not that I don't like doing this kind of thing once in a while. It just seems like a stressful way to end the day when it's constant. I'm already dealing with deadlines in my every day job. I don't need a drill sergeant yelling at me to hurry up and get through the obstacle course at the end of the day when I'm just trying to unwind.

whoever is reading this and thinks, "golly gee, this looks like a great idea", let me tell you:
please. do. not. ever. macro. combat. abilities.
you're shooting yourself in both kneecaps and break both your arms if you do
that's all

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Originally Posted by Kolaina

A macro player. You can bet you won’t go passed the 5 minute limit in a duty with me. I play with the power of vote. I don’t like to use it. But if you’re going to hold me back, and “play” (if you want to call macroing playing) with the attitude of your leisure and laziness > my time and enjoyment, well bud, your gone.

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Originally Posted by MaxCarnage

You'll get an instant vote-kick from me too LOL

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Be honest. Unless you're using a parser (which is technically against ToS), you're never even going to know he's using a macro. Good luck getting him vote kicked. I've yet to see a player vote kicked for doing anything other than maliciously refusing to participate or for repeatedly and deliberately pulling bosses before the raid was ready. Kicking someone for low DPS isn't a thing in this game, and I personally think that's a good thing.

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Originally Posted by Rinhi

also, just for the record, your generation is where the self-entitled karen/parent thing really took off, so come again? your generation is the one where the inflated sense of self and being egocentric was at it's height

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I don't know how old you think I am, but I suspect that you're thinking of the generation before mine. When I was a kid, the older generation's entitlement was so prevalent that no one even called it out. That generation also laughed at the idea of someone even trying hard at a video game because they understood that games are for fun and that time spent perfecting your video game play is wasted time that could have gone to mastering a skill that would actually be productive and beneficial to society. Ironically, expecting everyone around you in an MMO to play like a top-tier player to suit your preferences is the epitome of entitlement and egocentricity.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rinhi

whoever is reading this and thinks, "golly gee, this looks like a great idea", let me tell you:
please. do. not. ever. macro. combat. abilities.
you're shooting yourself in both kneecaps and break both your arms if you do
that's all

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If you know your limit and play within it, as I have disclaimed, and structure your macros as a priority spam as opposed to “one press, multiple timed out abilities,” which I personally do not use, the corner of “one more line” is a perfectly viable one to cut within the bounds of “good enough is good enough.”

Source: The many compliments I’ve received tanking through the 60’s in FFXIV… including the group I saved from a terrible wipe.

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Originally Posted by Ronduwil

Be honest. Unless you're using a parser (which is technically against ToS), you're never even going to know he's using a macro. Good luck getting him vote kicked. I've yet to see a player vote kicked for doing anything other than maliciously refusing to participate or for repeatedly and deliberately pulling bosses before the raid was ready. Kicking someone for low DPS isn't a thing in this game, and I personally think that's a good thing.

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Except he admitted it. I am not generalizing kicking macro players. I’m making a mental note of his character specifically.
Get your parser talk out of here.
Edit. I don’t need luck to get him vote kicked. I already play with half the duty. It’s a simple “I’m kicking him” with an “ok” response

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Originally Posted by Ronduwil

I don't know how old you think I am, but I suspect that you're thinking of the generation before mine. When I was a kid, the older generation's entitlement was so prevalent that no one even called it out. That generation also laughed at the idea of someone even trying hard at a video game because they understood that games are for fun and that time spent perfecting your video game play is wasted time that could have gone to mastering a skill that would actually be productive and beneficial to society. Ironically, expecting everyone around you in an MMO to play like a top-tier player to suit your preferences is the epitome of entitlement and egocentricity.

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Why is the strawman you're arguing against saying people need to be top tier in performance? Nobody is calling for that. People who do single pulls are closer to people who do doubles than the double pullers are to top tier.

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Originally Posted by Omedon

Source: The many compliments I’ve received tanking through the 60’s in FFXIV… including the group I saved from a terrible wipe.

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Oh I’d like to hear this big fish. A tank saving a party from a big wipe. Ive seen healers do this. Red mages. Bards back when they had healer lb3. But a tank who simply has to hit something with stance on… now thats a new one. What happened? Macro didn’t follow through, mobs went crazy and you had to hit 2 buttons?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ronduwil

I don't know how old you think I am, but I suspect that you're thinking of the generation before mine. When I was a kid, the older generation's entitlement was so prevalent that no one even called it out. That generation also laughed at the idea of someone even trying hard at a video game because they understood that games are for fun and that time spent perfecting your video game play is wasted time that could have gone to mastering a skill that would actually be productive and beneficial to society. Ironically, expecting everyone around you in an MMO to play like a top-tier player to suit your preferences is the epitome of entitlement and egocentricity.

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so you're saying you're my generation? and yet we're at complete opposites when it comes to this issue...
maybe it's not a generational issue aside and your, dare I say, toxic generalisation about literal millions of people was completely unwarranted and done out of frustrations because your whole argument is based on feelings and nothing else?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Omedon

Source: The many compliments I’ve received tanking through the 60’s in FFXIV…

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I imagine it went something like this;

You: I'm new at tanking, sorry if I'm bad
Party at the end of run: You did fine.

It's not hard to be told you did fine as a tank. Have tank stance on and use at least 1 CD and that's already enough to warrant a, "eh, you're not the worst I've seen."

Most people who say they're new at the beginning of the dungeon get encouragement at the end in the form of, "you're fine" or "you did good". Doesn't make you a good player, it just means you made it to the end without the team quitting.

Frankly, I think zooming through these dungeons is the proper way to do them. Doesn't even require being top tier, being a zoomer in this instance would be a compliment. Unfortunately, I'm just old enough that I'm not a zoomer, but I'll take notes off that generation for sure.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ronduwil

Be honest. Unless you're using a parser (which is technically against ToS), you're never even going to know he's using a macro. Good luck getting him vote kicked. I've yet to see a player vote kicked for doing anything other than maliciously refusing to participate or for repeatedly and deliberately pulling bosses before the raid was ready.

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Trust me, you don't need a parser to tell when someone is playing like this. It's also highly likely that someone who is willing to play like this is also willing to make other poor game-related decisions, such as performing their rotation incorrectly or frequently tabbing out during pulls. Players are rarely only bad at exactly one aspect of a game; Being this 'bad' is usually mindset related, and tends to affect your play on multiple levels.

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Originally Posted by Ronduwil

Kicking someone for low DPS isn't a thing in this game, and I personally think that's a good thing.

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It is, but it's exceedingly rare. There is a point at which low DPS can become genuinely obstructive, and I've seen kicks go through in dungeons over it. One instance was a DRG who only used his single target combo via a macro in Malikahs Well; His contribution to the party was so low that it made double pulls almost impossible, as the tank and healer exhausted all of their cooldowns by the time the first pull was over. Another instance involved a BLM, ironically in the same dungeon, who was only casting thunder spells and the occasional blizzard.

I'd also like to point out that it's extremely rare to receive public flak in-game for the way you are playing, so when someone complains that they are repeatedly being dogged on by other players its a huge red flag. It means that they're either playing at the level as mentioned above, obstructive, or are unstable and read every single interaction as an attack or slight.