Does Square intend to address Market botting?

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Originally Posted by Rurouni_Auron

You do not need to identify [snip].

All you need to do is find a worthy item (Check Shinryu's Gunblade and Chakarms for example) and see if there's someone undercutting the price by 1 Gil.
Check their profile and company of that character: If it is a company of 9 characters, 1 main omnicrafter with 1 LV80 DoM or DoW job and 8 mules and no company estate then BINGO you found the [snip]

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Which is a process of identifying likely botters.

So yes, identification is necessary. Otherwise SE might as well just ban your account because there's no need to identify who's actually botting, they can just pick players at random. Right?

I decided to idle around and chat with friends while in Limsa today.

While checking the MBs, I always saw a particular name pop up that is in the Free Company "Alpha Knights". That said, I began to notice a "rotation" of the around Lv.20 members logging in, being at their retainer bells, de-selecting it, looking away, going back to select it for a while, then eventually log out... all while their "leader" was holed up in an apartment where I assume they have an FC chest and retainer bell.

So, I got really bored and began peering over the marketboards. Lo and behold, I found that they have at least 20 retainers across all the characters in the FC, all undercutting by 1 gil, and all posting at least one item with the crafter's signature.

Now, I have an item for sale that the crafter had also made one of - and I watched it. Unsurprisingly, when I brought my price down, like clockwork within minutes, they'd undercut by 1 gil. I decided to message one of their retainer bots, asking why they were logging in and out like clockwork, because I was curious - no response what-so-ever.

A real person would've at least replied - even if it was a "bugger off". You cannot make this up nor deny it - they are, in fact, botting.

Funny enough one of the bots recently put a comment in their search info with a name, that when looked up with FFXIV on it brings up old reddit and such of people accusing that name of being bot and them claiming to be just a person and their boyfriend with 4 accounts, yet that name crops up on JPN and ENG spots in looking and different servers as well.

So apparently we're seeing full botter fake lives too to try to legitimize themselves and that was a year or so ago with the name. Kinda weird.

And an interesting bit today, think I've started nailing down which ones are run by what people. 3 of the known bots all went offline at the same time, then came back on at the same time, while two of the others never did. They've been doing that like that the last few weeks all same time.

Curiouser and curiouser

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Originally Posted by NamidaTekika

Funny enough one of the bots recently put a comment in their search info with a name, that when looked up with FFXIV on it brings up old reddit and such of people accusing that name of being bot and them claiming to be just a person and their boyfriend with 4 accounts, yet that name crops up on JPN and ENG spots in looking and different servers as well.

So apparently we're seeing full botter fake lives too to try to legitimize themselves and that was a year or so ago with the name. Kinda weird.

And an interesting bit today, think I've started nailing down which ones are run by what people. 3 of the known bots all went offline at the same time, then came back on at the same time, while two of the others never did. They've been doing that like that the last few weeks all same time.

Curiouser and curiouser

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what better way to throw things off? I mean its kind of telling that an 8 "member" FC is ranked number 7 on Zalera, with the FC leader the only one past 30 and the only one that isnt in a starter city. now, I realize that people can measure their worth by how much virtual money they have, thats awesome, but if you never do anything with it apparently, and never do anything else in the game... why "play"? The only thing I can imagine is RMT

I dont care how "life-like" they try and make themselves, cheating is still cheating and they should be perma banned (after all, they arent playing anyway)

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Originally Posted by Kes13a

what better way to throw things off? I mean its kind of telling that an 8 "member" FC is ranked number 7 on Zalera, with the FC leader the only one past 30 and the only one that isnt in a starter city. now, I realize that people can measure their worth by how much virtual money they have, thats awesome, but if you never do anything with it apparently, and never do anything else in the game... why "play"? The only thing I can imagine is RMT

I dont care how "life-like" they try and make themselves, cheating is still cheating and they should be perma banned (after all, they arent playing anyway)

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Ya still cheating, still think they should be punished. Just kinda impressed how far they will go to try to "See I'm a real person! I just play on several servers and regions and give a real name out in search comment so you can google me and see I'm totally a real person!" (shame the results kinda prove its a sock puppet at best).

Or "We went offline, totally rested for 3 hours then all 3 came back online at the same time and back to gathering. Totally not bots see!"

We have to agree that people that make money like this aren't that sharp to begin with. Dumb behavior like you shared is interesting but not unexpected. Thanks for the post, and I hope I can find and read more about the bot you've posted.

Separately, I was thinking that this problem is too easy to not address--at least for the egregious cases discussed here. At this stage, I wouldn't be surprised if either SE got a cut from these companies, or SE was relying on the inflation in their economies to somehow bolster other sales.

I've never thought that SE was making a good faith effort with eliminating botting. Now, I'm more convinced that the botting system itself is allowed to continue in bad faith. From my experience with the in-game support, they'll readily address cases of harassment or phishing attempts. For bots, they're conspicuously silent. There is no way they don't know about the extent of this problem. They likely receive hundreds of reports for any given bot. Additionally, they likely carefully monitor how users interact with their product--all other software companies do. At this stage, they're not doing anything about it--including even acknowledging the problem--for a reason.

I think that this thread being one of the most viewed on the NA/EU forum, speaks to how big a problem it is. This thread had 5k views a couple weeks ago after having being up for several months and now it has over 11k. There is definitely a lot of players who must be frustrated enoguht with the bots to come here and look this thread over

After the end of the "Restoration of bots", there were even more bots, prices just dropped. Several new trading bots have appeared. They are no longer shy about calling their retainers by type "Softpower" and etc.

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Originally Posted by Muutaras

After the end of the "Restoration of bots", there were even more bots, prices just dropped. Several new trading bots have appeared. They are no longer shy about calling their retainers by type "Softpower" and etc.

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Yeah, I dont think they even bother to hide any more. One of the RMT crafters in the Crystal group is still using the same methods and the same network of sellers. yeah, being banned didnt affect very much since the "original" crafter is gone, but a new one is back.

Why doesnt SE enforce their TOS? Crafting is actually one of my favorite things to do in this game but the botting has gotten so bad i now sell about 2 items a day. Even when i went out of my way to try and wage a war against them and get really aggressive with undercutting and trying to crash their preferred markets and literally updating my prices like a madman just to try and get a sale to stick it to them. I gave up though, too exhausting, cant beat a bot i need sleep and life. I thought i cant be the only one who sees this and is fed up. So i found this thread!

1) Is there actual steps to take that gets results?
2) I report them 2-3 times a week but what if we all did it daily and spread the word?
3) Can we spread the word to the server populace without getting banned? It seems ludicrous that we cant even point out the problem.

Or is SE just looking at the $$$. Bots pays subs too! So if they banned 1k bots they would loose a lot of income so SE policy is only as good as their next dollar. <--------- This seems to be the stinky fish methinks. An RMT bot that pays subs 12 months a year, year after year is a better customer than me who subs for about 3-4 months a year so the content SE made is actually for botters not me.

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Originally Posted by Eloc

Why doesnt SE enforce their TOS? Crafting is actually one of my favorite things to do in this game but the botting has gotten so bad i now sell about 2 items a day. Even when i went out of my way to try and wage a war against them and get really aggressive with undercutting and trying to crash their preferred markets and literally updating my prices like a madman just to try and get a sale to stick it to them. I gave up though, too exhausting, cant beat a bot i need sleep and life. I thought i cant be the only one who sees this and is fed up. So i found this thread!

1) Is there actual steps to take that gets results?
2) I report them 2-3 times a week but what if we all did it daily and spread the word?
3) Can we spread the word to the server populace without getting banned? It seems ludicrous that we cant even point out the problem.

Or is SE just looking at the $$$. Bots pays subs too! So if they banned 1k bots they would loose a lot of income so SE policy is only as good as their next dollar. <--------- This seems to be the stinky fish methinks. An RMT bot that pays subs 12 months a year, year after year is a better customer than me who subs for about 3-4 months a year so the content SE made is actually for botters not me.

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We do see SE banning some suspected bots so there are results. But with other suspected bots being left alone, those results aren't what we're hoping for. The most we can do is keep reporting them with a description of the behavior we witness that makes us think they're bots.

Naming and shaming is a considered a form of harassment and not allowed. Report suspect bots each time you see them engaging in activity you believe to be botting but don't "spread the word" to other player through game channels. If you get reported for doing, you're the one who's likely to get banned and not the suspected bot.

Most bots don't pay subs. They use stolen payment information to get temporary access to the game before disappearing to be replaced by a new bot account doing the same thing. That's not income for SE, that's a monetary loss due to chargeback fees and time that has to be spent processing everything related. They would love to be rid of those bots.

The relatively few "normal" players paying subs but using bot software don't amount to much compared to the income generated by the rest of the player base. SE's problem is coming up with enough evidence that bot software is being used. The software is getting more sophisticated so it makes detection harder in many cases if the user follows the bot company's instructions. They do get caught on occasion but it's not as often as players would like.

pretty sad when even Nexxon is working on ENCOURAGING people to report bots, and they are no where near as disruptive in that game. they want you to report even a SUSPICION of bot behaviour so it can be investigated. because "This is a friendly reminder to please double-check your member lists and any applicants when recruiting. Nobody enjoys a guild full of bots"

SE's silence is starting to look like negligence or condoning the behaviour. Time for someone at SE to do more than ban or suspend the low hanging fruit.

Thanks Eloc, Jojoya and Kes13a for your posts. I always enjoy reading new comments on this problem.

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Originally Posted by Eloc

Crafting is actually one of my favorite things to do in this game but the botting has gotten so bad i now sell about 2 items a day.

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I think we all feel the same way. Some people enjoy playing The Epic Alexander, and some like crafting and playing the market. I’ve always wondered how SE would address the issue if it impacted other content more extensively. I’d argue that market bots are more detrimental to a larger player base than other bots because crafters give up and don’t sell on the market, leaving bots to sell at very high prices.

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Originally Posted by Eloc

1) Is there actual steps to take that gets results?
2) I report them 2-3 times a week but what if we all did it daily and spread the word?
3) Can we spread the word to the server populace without getting banned? It seems ludicrous that we cant even point out the problem.

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I have never seen a bot get banned after multiple reports in-game and the Special Task Force (https://support.na.square-enix.com/c...382&la=1&fty=2) That said, I still think it’s worth reporting them. At the very least, SE must keep statistics on how many reports they get on each player and how many are ignored, when they do a post-mortem on the problem.

I think that continuing to discuss this issue through this thread could lead to a response. My hope is that this thread will receive enough visibility (views) to warrant a response from Yoshi-P.

We can’t name or shame individual accounts, even though it’s not really debatable whether you can ‘harass’ a computer script. However, we’ve been able to identify one type of bot (the FC bot) and list the FCs of those bots. These are crafting bots that sell almost every kind of item on a server and are part of an FC with one high-level crafter (FC owner) and 8-9 dummy accounts. If you could find those for your datacenter (Primal) to add to the list, that would be helpful.

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post5434835
https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post5433979

Thanks Jojoya. I haven’t played the game as long as you, and your comments on the problem long-term are helpful.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

We do see SE banning some suspected bots so there are results.

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I haven’t seen a bot get banned—are they a particular type of bot that gets banned? Have they banned bots in the last 6 months? I’ve reported market bots and DOL/Ephemeral bots many times.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

Most bots don't pay subs... SE's problem is coming up with enough evidence that bot software is being used. The software is getting more sophisticated so it makes detection harder in many cases if the user follows the bot company's instructions. They do get caught on occasion but it's not as often as players would like.

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I’m not sure that SE isn’t making money with the problem in some way.

They have to be making money from subs because there are market bots that have operated for 6-12 months or more with impunity, and these are paying accounts. Considering their diligence in acting on other TOS violations (phishing and harassment), I also don’t think they’re understaffed. I honestly think they avoid addressing some types of bots because they view them as beneficial for their game. It’s sort of like how some players justify DOL/Ephemeral bots because they make crystals affordable, even though the simple solution would be to just make an NPC merchant to sell crystals.

I also am not sure that they don’t have enough evidence. By definition, an account playing continuously and actively (i.e. not AFK) for more than 36 hours is not a human. A human can’t do that. At the same time you have bot accounts playing continuously for months, 24/7. If you’re right about there not being enough information in the reports, they could at least give us guidance on filling in more complete reports.

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Originally Posted by Kes13a

SE's silence is starting to look like negligence or condoning the behaviour. Time for someone at SE to do more than ban or suspend the low hanging fruit.

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I agree 100%

I find Jojoya's comment interesting on SE not having enough information on bots.

I'd like to try something new. Since we can't discuss specific bots here, I've created a discord for discussing and identifying specific bots on different datacenters. This is not meant to replace this thread, but it's to collect information for reports on specific bots.

My hope is that we can coordinate and gather information to make more detailed reports on specific bots, and see if that might help the problem.

https://discord.gg/KsZSqw

Almost beautiful today. Said someone in say near some of the botter types (the same one who is using the 'real name') and after they teleported away, I got the same tell from 2 separate characters that I've seen doing the bot kinda rounds...all the exact same tell at the exact same time. That sure shows me you're not using third party programs! Mhmm...

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Originally Posted by TheLoveJenovan

I haven’t seen a bot get banned—are they a particular type of bot that gets banned? Have they banned bots in the last 6 months? I’ve reported market bots and DOL/Ephemeral bots many times.

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A notice is posted every week on Lodestone listing the number of accounts banned the previous week. Here's a link to the most recent one:

https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...b147f391c1c7d7

In the past SE had lumped all botting activity together under RMT activity but recently they separated out the non-RMT activity. We can see that they are doing something though the numbers still aren't as large as we'd hope.

Like most game violations, it appears that SE is not permanently banning accounts on a first offense (unless clearly RMT activity). They're doing temporary suspensions then permanent if the player doesn't stop.

I would love a better way to report suspected bot activity, especially considering most of the details we can offer as players amount more to reasonable speculation than actual proof.

A couple of days ago, I was at the Fort Jobb Aetheryte taking a moment to chat with FC while I was scouting a hunt train. Suddenly, a group of characters all with one of the Legend titles displayed appeared around the Aetheryte at the exact same time. A few seconds later, they all took off in perfect unison in the exact same direction.

Clearly it was a party of bots, likely one of the bot map parties that has begun plaguing the game. It is impossible for a group of characters controlled by different human beings to act together with such perfect precision. A couple are going to be a little faster or a little slower because of ping and just general human reaction time. Player controlled characters would take off in slightly different directions before correcting to head the same direction.

There is no quick report tool I could use to select at least one of them, let alone all of them, to tell SE "this character is displaying behavior characteristic of a bot, please investigate". I'm not going to use the Report RMT option because the activity I witnessed was not directly RMT related though it could be getting used to fuel RMT somewhere done the line. All we have is the cumbersome chain of menu options before you get to "Report Cheating" and it would have taken me a considerable amount of time to try to chase the party down to collect names then fill out the support ticket. I didn't bother since there was a good chance they'd be done and gone before I could track them down.

Even a simple change so the current Report RMT quick option becomes "Report RMT/bot activity" would be an improvement.

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Originally Posted by TheLoveJenovan

They have to be making money from subs because there are market bots that have operated for 6-12 months or more with impunity, and these are paying accounts.

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There are different types of bots involved. The vast majority of bots are getting run from the accounts set up with the stolen payment information.

The market bots you're referring to are generally operated by "real" players using bot software to automate some of their game play. Yes, they're legitimately subscribed but they're also very small in number compared to the total player base. If SE had some sort of proof they are botting, they would ban the account because losing a couple of dozen subscriptions paid by cheaters is not a big deal in a game with close to a million active subscribers.

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Originally Posted by TheLoveJenovan

By definition, an account playing continuously and actively (i.e. not AFK) for more than 36 hours is not a human. A human can’t do that.

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Where is that definition listed? I can't seem to find it anywhere in dictionaries or even in online medical references? Human beings can be capable of amazing things over short periods of time (which would include something like 36 hours). Sometimes it happens as a consequence of medical problems (one of my old WoW friends was hooked up to bags and frequently would remain awake 48-60 hours straight thanks to pain and discomfort from cancer treatment gone wrong).

They can't keep up those patterns of behavior consistently for weeks, though. Eventually the body breaks down enough that the brain forces it to rest.

Also, how do you know those accounts are operating continuously and actively for more than 36 hours if you're not doing the same yourself and at the same location they are so you can be constantly watching them?

I'm willing to bet those accounts, even if being run with bot software, aren't displaying the activity you describe. They will have breaks in activity as they run out of supplies and need human oversight directing them what to do next, or enter into off peak hours where there's little reason to keep monitoring marketboard prices every minute when once an hour is sufficient.

SE is going to make certain they have enough proof before they take action. Gaming companies already get enough grief for taking actions against accounts because of false positives. Better for them to spend an extra month making certain it's a bot than to watch your friend have to fight to get a ban overturned because SE felt pressured to start banning people just to keep the vocal minority content.

Thanks Jojoya,
I'm not sure how to read those reports. They include impressive numbers like 3,238 RMT accounts banned, but I've never seen a bot get banned. I assume those are almost all accounts that advertise gil selling or that conduct the final gil transfer with the customer. The bots that fund these operations appear to never get banned, and these I think show up under the "Botting Activity" category, which only shows 3 terminations and 12 suspensions (this week). That's only 0.04 bans per server and 0.18 terminations per server. Another way to look at it is that it will take 22 weeks to ban 1 bot on a server or 5-6 weeks to suspend 1 bot on a server.

I started a spreadsheet of some of the bots on my datacenter, with the help of a couple of other people on the discord I created (https://discord.gg/KsZSqw). We've already identified 18 bot rings comprising 87 accounts that have operated anywhere from 83 days to 960 days (about 2.5 years).

My plan is to send the updated list to the Special Task Force every Thursday, after the post on "Actions Taken Against In-Game Bots." Hopefully they can make some headway with a more concerted effort from us players.

Thanks Jojoya,

I didn't get the second part of your post.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

The market bots you're referring to are generally operated by "real" players using bot software to automate some of their game play. Yes, they're legitimately subscribed but they're also very small in number compared to the total player base. If SE had some sort of proof they are botting, they would ban the account because losing a couple of dozen subscriptions paid by cheaters is not a big deal in a game with close to a million active subscribers.

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I disagree with this statement. The market bot accounts I am referring to don't play the game. They have all the crafters leveled and never level anything else or leave the apartment for months. Maybe it's a real player that likes to amass big numbers of currency in a game. Maybe it's a bot that's generating income for RMT sales.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

Where is that definition listed? I can't seem to find it anywhere in dictionaries or even in online medical references? Human beings can be capable of amazing things over short periods of time (which would include something like 36 hours). Sometimes it happens as a consequence of medical problems (one of my old WoW friends was hooked up to bags and frequently would remain awake 48-60 hours straight thanks to pain and discomfort from cancer treatment gone wrong).

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That's fair. If they identified bots this way, there would be false positives from a small number of outliers. I would still create a rule despite outliers though. In any case, I would think that a ban that resulted from a medical condition could be sorted out pretty easily with an email.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

Also, how do you know those accounts are operating continuously and actively for more than 36 hours if you're not doing the same yourself and at the same location they are so you can be constantly watching them?

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I don't have to, I just need to sample their activity at regular intervals for long enough. That said, I didn't run the statistics to ensure that I had a 95% confidence interval, but at the end of the day, the accounts I've listed are on all the time for months. I've never seen a break.

I'd be happy to write a script that logs the online activity of specific bots. Frankly, it's something that Square Enix should do. I also don't have much sympathy for them, as there's clearly a problem--identified by many people--and they haven't even given us a response. I'd be forgiving, if they simply posted:

"We recognize that we're getting many bot reports from users that have not led to bans of bots. We want to assure you that we've looked at each and every case, and in most cases, we could not identify the botting activity. Please include more detailed information in your reports."

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Originally Posted by TheLoveJenovan

I'd be happy to write a script that logs the online activity of specific bots. Frankly, it's something that Square Enix should do. I also don't have much sympathy for them, as there's clearly a problem--identified by many people--and they haven't even given us a response. I'd be forgiving, if they simply posted:

"We recognize that we're getting many bot reports from users that have not led to bans of bots. We want to assure you that we've looked at each and every case, and in most cases, we could not identify the botting activity. Please include more detailed information in your reports."

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From what others have said, the Special Task Force is a very small team. They're not going to be able to respond to all the reports they get because that takes time away from actually checking activity. They aren't small children who need to report to their parents that they've done their chores, nor should we treat them like they are.

I'm sure they've got plenty of reports being generated using tools and data players don't have access to. What we don't know is the standards they've set internally for deciding when action should be taken against an account, and that's information that would never get shared with the player base.

Every MMO has its problem with bots. It's unavoidable. As players, we need to do what we can to report them when noticed but otherwise leave it up to the game developer to handle it. There's no point letting something out of our control upset us.

Jojoya:
As I've posted before, this game generates 100s of millions a year. There is no reason this Special Task Force has to be small. There is no reason they shouldn't be able to easily automate the detailed information needed to identify bots. They're just being greedy by not investing more to fix the product.

It's bad enough that the company doesn't listen to its customers. I've even posted Customer Support emails that show that they're an outside company that sends form emails.

I'm not going to further argue with Square Enix apologists, and I won't reply to you anymore. The company sucks, but you don't think so. Fine. Keep giving them your money.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

From what others have said, the Special Task Force is a very small team. They're not going to be able to respond to all the reports they get because that takes time away from actually checking activity. They aren't small children who need to report to their parents that they've done their chores, nor should we treat them like they are.

I'm sure they've got plenty of reports being generated using tools and data players don't have access to. What we don't know is the standards they've set internally for deciding when action should be taken against an account, and that's information that would never get shared with the player base.

Every MMO has its problem with bots. It's unavoidable. As players, we need to do what we can to report them when noticed but otherwise leave it up to the game developer to handle it. There's no point letting something out of our control upset us.

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BS. as PAYING customers we have an expectation to be able to open the game and be able to play it in a reasonable fashion. so as players, you are basically saying we should just accept bots and the fact that harvesting and crafting are pointless currently and smile at the benign gods.

I dont expect that all the bots will go away. I am not a child either. but right now, SE might as well REMOVE harvesting and crafting because on my server at least, there is zero use for it. unless I use a bot.. seriously, things will never sell. unless I act like a bot, and stand on the market all day long, things will never sell. maybe things are different on your server, it sure seems like it. players shop for and buy items a few gil more expensive because you are a real person and not a bot, you have areas of the market where you can make millions of gil by putting up items at a reasonable cost and then go out harvesting and questing or farming.

your server seems to be an exception Jojoya.

none of us have any proof that they do any checking, or that they do not. because all we have is a weekly report of numbers.... strangely enough, even with those weekly reports, long term KNOWN bots still operate. since I am sure they have been investigated, are they real players? hard to imagine real people doing exactly the same thing for weeks on end, but perhaps. Do they have generated reports? who knows, not you and not I.

If you buy a car, and you cant use the a/c. radio, heater, are you thrilled with your purchase? you get letters from the company telling you they have fixed hundreds of people with a/c. radio and heater issues, but you never meet one.

would be better if they just removed the a/c, radio and heater from the car.

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Originally Posted by TheLoveJenovan

Jojoya:
As I've posted before, this game generates 100s of millions a year. There is no reason this Special Task Force has to be small. There is no reason they shouldn't be able to easily automate the detailed information needed to identify bots. They're just being greedy by not investing more to fix the product.

It's bad enough that the company doesn't listen to its customers. I've even posted Customer Support emails that show that they're an outside company that sends form emails.

I'm not going to further argue with Square Enix apologists, and I won't reply to you anymore. The company sucks, but you don't think so. Fine. Keep giving them your money.

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not just that, but is there just one STF? does it primarily focus on Japanese servers and gets to NA servers when its slow? I dont need to know all the detail about what they do, how they do it or the methods used to catch cheaters, but it would be nice to know the particulars of who they are, how many are involved and if NA is even a blip on their radar.

according to Q4 2019 data, SE had revenue of 470 million USG and Nexon had 450M, so if Nexon can try to be more proactive about bots and large scale cheating, why cant SE?

If crime spikes in your area, no one says "well, criminals are more sophisticated now than they were in the 1850's, I am sure the police are doing...something" no, you expect the police to either hire more people to deal with the issue, get better equipment to bring that under control.

saying "it is what it is" is not a reasonable answer. neither is "get used to crime, it happens"

The STF is paid to do one thing, of course there is no expectation they get to every report made on a daily basis. but I think it would be fantasy to believe they have no method of correlation so if someone gets reported for illegal activity, they get to it "eventually"

If they get these "plenty of reports" through their own tools and data, maybe they should start doing something about them.

As I said before, they can ban or terminate thousands, but its not broken down by server so could just be a number. I dont expect cheaters or bot users to vanish, all I expect, is acknowledgement of the issue by someone from SE, and an idea they are working on a fix.

as players, there is no reason not to expect cheaters to be punished for making major aspects of a game we obviously enjoy to be useless.

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Originally Posted by TheLoveJenovan

Jojoya:
As I've posted before, this game generates 100s of millions a year. There is no reason this Special Task Force has to be small. There is no reason they shouldn't be able to easily automate the detailed information needed to identify bots. They're just being greedy by not investing more to fix the product.

It's bad enough that the company doesn't listen to its customers. I've even posted Customer Support emails that show that they're an outside company that sends form emails.

I'm not going to further argue with Square Enix apologists, and I won't reply to you anymore. The company sucks, but you don't think so. Fine. Keep giving them your money.

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I will keep giving them money because I enjoy the game and I've got some clue about reality. Bots are a never ending problem for every game developer. No developer has ever managed to solve the problem short of destroying their game to the point no one wants to play it.

The irony is you're going to keep giving SE money as well. If you were serious about not doing it, you'd already be long gone.

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Originally Posted by Kes13a

BS. as PAYING customers we have an expectation to be able to open the game and be able to play it in a reasonable fashion.

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What is preventing you from playing the game in a reasonable fashion?

Not one thing other than your need to be offended by something.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

What is preventing you from playing the game in a reasonable fashion?

Not one thing other than your need to be offended by something.

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I am actually only offended by people who blatantly cheat and are allowed to get away with it.

I have said you are obviously on a server not inundated in recent months by an unreasonable amount of bots. sure, all games have bots and I wont deny that, at all. there is a "reasonable" amount of bots which will always be difficult to completely squash. however in the last few months the number has gone well past acceptable.

in truth if I needed something to be offended by there is much to choose from, but instead I choose to focus on something most people aside from yourself (in this thread), seem to be able to agree on and think there is an issue

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Originally Posted by Kes13a

I am actually only offended by people who blatantly cheat and are allowed to get away with it.

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Thanks Kes13a. I don’t enjoy playing an MMO with blatant cheating either. At the very least, they could make an effort to address the most egregious cases, like the bots that have been running from 84 days to 951 days (2.5 years)

I hate to say it, but I’m going to let me subscription lapse (tomorrow) until this gets sorted. I had planned to do it last month, but my friends in my old FC needed money to buy a larger FC house for the upcoming housing capacity increase. I hope to still help the community coordinate its response, but I won’t be able to check on specific bots on Crystal.

I think there is a problem that too few in the community realize there’s a market botting problem. On Zalera, most items from lvl 50-80 are being sold at 20-50% of the prices on Jenova because of bots. I think the legit crafters may be able to keep this up for some time. At some point, they may realize the futility of posting on the marketboard and give up, pushing all prices up to unaffordable prices. I hope this happens in the next 6 months.

I’m also getting a bit tired of explaining that this is a big problem. We know it’s a problem because we enjoy the game by crafting, gathering and playing the marketboard, but we’re in a minority. If bots infiltrated other game systems to the same extent, like the Duty Finder, there would be a large enough outcry to have SE do something about it. The marketboard is just as crucial a game system, but people won’t understand the problem until it becomes completely unusable.

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Originally Posted by Kes13a

your server seems to be an exception Jojoya.

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The Coeurl server has a pretty bad market botting problem too—I mentioned the bot FC in a previous listing. The Coeurl bots have moved into most of the lvl 50-80 items. I find it hard to believe that players on that server haven't encountered them, as I did when I visited that server. I also don’t understand the dogmatic loyalty to SE in the face of such blatant cheating in the game. The only reasonable explanation, to me, is that some players are either using bots themselves or are close to other people that use bots, then they come onto threads like this to defend the status quo. People like that are a part of the problem.

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Originally Posted by Kes13a

but right now, SE might as well REMOVE harvesting and crafting because on my server at least, there is zero use for it.

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While i understand that bots can make some people angry, saying this kind of thing is overreacting. Earning gils is not the sole purpose of crafting and gathering, it is also useful for :

- gather all the ingredients you need by yourself ;
- craft yourself some hq gear ;
- getting with Rowena's collectables tons of crafting/gathering materias for pentamelding ;
- advancing the Ishgard reconstruction while getting all these minions/mounts/etc ;
- making your own housing items for your house/appartement ;
- doing your crafter/gatherer tribal quests ;
- earning gc seals with the daily deliverys ;
- getting tons of achievements for people collecting them ;
- making some foods and potions to hit harder in raids ;
- etc.

Bots only become a problem if you try to make big amounts of gils by reselling your items. But if you don't there is plenty of things to do and enjoy with crafting and gathering, without even caring of what is going on on the market board. Saying that it has zero use and should be removed from the game is taking it way too far.

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Originally Posted by Kleeya

Saying that it has zero use and should be removed from the game is taking it way too far.

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That's true, but the marketboard is a strong incentive to get invested in crafting and gathering. It's not just about making money from sales but also the availability of mats to buy and do more crafting (and gathering). Crafting and gathering would be significantly more difficult and less enticing without a useable marketboard.

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Originally Posted by TheLoveJenovan

The Coeurl server has a pretty bad market botting problem too—I mentioned the bot FC in a previous listing. The Coeurl bots have moved into most of the lvl 50-80 items. I find it hard to believe that players on that server haven't encountered them, as I did when I visited that server. I also don’t understand the dogmatic loyalty to SE in the face of such blatant cheating in the game. The only reasonable explanation, to me, is that some players are either using bots themselves or are close to other people that use bots, then they come onto threads like this to defend the status quo. People like that are a part of the problem.

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I do see the bots. I switch to the items they aren't focused on. I still make gil crafting and selling on the MB.

Again, show me a MMO that doesn't have bots. You're going to find these same conversations in other MMO forums, and the same accusations that the development teams don't care enough, that players who try to point out the reality of the situation are just apologists.

Think it can be handled better? Then go start up your own MMO and prove how the existing ones are incompetent.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

I do see the bots. I switch to the items they aren't focused on. I still make gil crafting and selling on the MB.

Again, show me a MMO that doesn't have bots. You're going to find these same conversations in other MMO forums, and the same accusations that the development teams don't care enough, that players who try to point out the reality of the situation are just apologists.

Think it can be handled better? Then go start up your own MMO and prove how the existing ones are incompetent.

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Ok, in any other game we would find gathering bots, oh well, yes they are everywhere.
But where could you find Auction house bots? WoW, Elder Scrolls? No.

And what do you offer? Ok, cheaters, continue to ruin the game?

We should talk about it, SE should do something with them. More bans, better security, anything helpful for real players.

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Originally Posted by Aniona

But where could you find Auction house bots? WoW, Elder Scrolls? No.

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In WoW setting up an item for the auction house costs a fee. Might be worth in FFXIV too.
In guild wars 2 you have a bid/ask order system, where you can instantly sell to a price somebody is offering. Would make markets more stable and foreseeable.

But true, bots in ff14? They are all real players ofc and you can't blame the game for it, its us who are wrong (irony off)

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Originally Posted by Aniona

And what do you offer? Ok, cheaters, continue to ruin the game?

We should talk about it, SE should do something with them. More bans, better security, anything helpful for real players.

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Thanks Aniona.

No one reasonable on this thread has asked SE to eliminate all bots. That's a straw-man counter argument. We're only asking for an official response, since so many of us have sent in dozens to hundreds of reports on obvious bots, and nothing happens. I did an accounting of 18 bot rings on Crystal, and those bots have been running from 90 days to 952 days (2.5 years).

Again, no one is asking that they eliminate all bots. We're asking them why bots run for months to years with impunity.

There are users on this thread that are strongly arguing for the status quo. Who wouldn't want Square Enix to improve their detection and elimination of bots and to make a fairer game? The only reasonable explanation are people that use bots or are friends with bot users.

A PSA: In case anyone else would find this useful, you can block a user's comments on the forum by clicking Settings at the top, then clicking Edit Ignore List.

Sadly SE doesn't give a damned about the problem. I'm guessing they don't know how to handle it. I've suggested they make an algorithm that will scan all market boards constantly, looking for repeated and predictable biddings, which shouldn't be very hard, and then monitor those accounts, with other algorithms, 24/7. It shouldn't be that hard. I've reported it several times the last month, since the market on Spriggan, as most others, to my understanding, have been completely destroyed from a crafters perspective. I have also sent emails to SE trying to make them aware of the problem, but all I get back is "You have to open a ticket with the GM's". The problem is that the GM's doesn't react, or at least don't give feedback, showing that they react. Maybe if more players started sending emails directly to SE support, they would start understanding how big of a problem this is turning into. I notice some players write that you should just let it be, and find other things to do, well, some of us play this game for the gathering, crafting, and selling, which we are silly enough to find much more interesting than to do the same raids/dungeons over and over again.

I don't even know why some of the low hanging fruit bots need manual intervention. I swear you could probably script things out on the back end to easily detect and suspend/ban. On the less low hanging fruit side you could then redirect efforts to actually hunting the bots. A few database commands too and you could even easily identify those since humans don't do things the same way constantly for hours on end at exact intervals. Easily identify, easily crush.

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Originally Posted by NamidaTekika

I don't even know why some of the low hanging fruit bots need manual intervention. I swear you could probably script things out on the back end to easily detect and suspend/ban. On the less low hanging fruit side you could then redirect efforts to actually hunting the bots. A few database commands too and you could even easily identify those since humans don't do things the same way constantly for hours on end at exact intervals. Easily identify, easily crush.

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NOOOO, we wouldnt want to do that. what if someones completely honest and unsuspecting friend does things exactly the same at exactly the same intervals for hours?!?!? we wouldnt want their friend to go through the pain and trauma of trying to get their account back would we? I mean I am certain they didnt mean to download that bot program, go through the effort to set it up only to be perma banned

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Originally Posted by Kes13a

NOOOO, we wouldnt want to do that. what if someones completely honest and unsuspecting friend does things exactly the same at exactly the same intervals for hours?!?!? we wouldnt want their friend to go through the pain and trauma of trying to get their account back would we? I mean I am certain they didnt mean to download that bot program, go through the effort to set it up only to be perma banned

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I want to meet that friend if they can do like 72+ hours straight doing the exact same process non-stop never taking a bathroom, food, or anything else break, never logging off or even the briefest afk. Either they've got a full catheter and IV setup to prevent needing to ever stop or something else is up. Either I would want to make sure they are enjoying their life or find out what form of OCD drives them on.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NamidaTekika

I don't even know why some of the low hanging fruit bots need manual intervention. I swear you could probably script things out on the back end to easily detect and suspend/ban. On the less low hanging fruit side you could then redirect efforts to actually hunting the bots. A few database commands too and you could even easily identify those since humans don't do things the same way constantly for hours on end at exact intervals. Easily identify, easily crush.

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I can tell you right now that "time/position/action" information is not maintained in a database for query. The raw amount of data that would need to be collected makes it fiscally irresponsible to consider it.