RDM the unwelcome DPS :(

When a caster can only have a damage output same as range, is when the problem arise

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Originally Posted by Wayfinder3

Overall I think personal dps should be
BLM=SAM > MCH > MNK = SMN > DRG > RDM = BRD > NIN = DNC

Rdps should look more like this
DNC > NIN = RDM > BRD > DRG > MNK = SMN > BLM = SAM = MCH*

*Add refresh as MP management back to Ranged and this will contribute to MCH rdps making it slightly more viable as a progression pure dps but it’s ranged benefits should restrict it in comparisons to BLM and SAM

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I wouldnt say RDM is that high RDPS Wise, while Majority of its Utility kit is realistically around Supporting Progression. while it is true, u cant measure its Utility by DPS As alot of The reasons to bring a RDM is Basically its Instant rezz.but for as long as they keep RDM balanced with Verraise it'll remain Ditched Every time content moves past its Progression era which realistically isnt right. as it is a Job which has no sustained requirement for. imho its about time we removed Rezz off Dual Cast ability.

verraise is just so contreversal to actually how meaningful it is.

its a great tool in progression, Allowing players to see more mechanics, although its proven to be less useful this expansion due to such tight DPS Checks that your Realistically not going to manage the fight reguardless so u tend to Swap across to another caster even earlier then SB.

but its a Tool which u are Taxed upon meaning Ur Less Fulfilling in a actual DPS Role, thus meaning after ur disgarded theres no real need for your Job anymore. Sticking it in this Limbo of Being something almost built to not be mained and just merely a Answer to the "BLM CANT PROG meme" .

imho

Put Verraise on a 30 sec CD with 2 Charges.

it still cant be used in emergency, it'll function the same through DF reguardless and Allows u to insta Rezz Two players During a Raid, but with this we can Lift the Taxation as it'll no longer be as vital as currently which reduces the fear it becomes Mandatory during progression raiding.

From here Just Align RDM to fit a DPS ROle With Embolden. a Nice Mid pack DPS with Some Good RDPS Function through Embolden to raise it the Rest of the way.

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Originally Posted by Drayos

I wouldnt say RDM is that high RDPS Wise, while Majority of its Utility kit is realistically around Supporting Progression

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We only got 2 utility spells for crying out loud and casting them affects our damage since they consume our dualcast. If you had a BLM and RDM side by side and they did the same damage but the RDM had to keep ressing people or self-healing you would still have the BLM doing more damage than the RDM. That's not to say I want RDM to be doing the same as a BLM but gee, this expansion is gonna make me quit if RDM isn't gonna get any love soon and I'm quite frankly tired of the arguments where people are quite happy to worship BLM and snort at every other DPS jobs.

Ranking class by where their aDPS and rDPS is rather difficult and IMO the best way to make class distinctions it through personal dps classes "buff receivers" and utility classes "buff givers". i think Buff givers would have to come out ahead in rDPS by a small but noticeable margin and buff receivers would have more aDPS by a rather noticeable amount. This of cause only applies if played well and is optimised (e.g. only with "buff recievers" recieveing the buff would the "Buff givers" come ahead in rDPS and would otherwise level out or be at a minor dps loss). there can also be the "intermediary classes" who's output is more middle of the road in both rDPS and aDPS as an alternative whlist providing more unique ways of buffing the party e.g. extra SS, Crit or DH (though balancing a SS buff sounds to me like a logistical nightmare).
(Im no theory crafter and if this is a bad idea please tell me why as i would like to know!)

EXAMPLES:
Buff recievers as they currently stand would include: BLM, SAM, MCH
Intermediary classes as they currently stand would include: DRG, MNK, BRD, and RDM* or SMN* (*either could also be buff givers they're so neck and neck right now i'd say they both currenty fall into this catagory)
Buff givers as they currently stand would include: DNC, NIN (*and possibly one of the magic classes rebalanced for this role)

But thats just what i'd like to see :)

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Originally Posted by Drayos

imho

Put Verraise on a 30 sec CD with 2 Charges.

it still cant be used in emergency, it'll function the same through DF reguardless and Allows u to insta Rezz Two players During a Raid, but with this we can Lift the Taxation as it'll no longer be as vital as currently which reduces the fear it becomes Mandatory during progression raiding.

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I've seen this suggested a few times, and I gotta say, I don't see how this changes things at all.... if you're in a raid and you both had the need and mana to raise three or more people at once, then the fight was a loss anyway because of enrage. And if you were just called upon to raise one person because a healer has swiftcast on cool down, then a 30 second recast timer changes nothing.

If we want to look at it as a charged action with a cool down, then we'd have to look more to something like Hallowed Ground or Hyperbolide to determine the right length. 7 minutes cool down so that you go into the fight able to raise twice, maybe three times if someone dies early on.

Machinist can never pull Black Mage or current Monk numbers otherwise Melee DPS serve zero purpose. They're inherently at a disadvantage due to being the only DPS forced to entirely stop attacking based on range. While the solution is often janky uptime strats... why bother with those when you can simply run all range jobs and achieve the same overall damage without any drawbacks?

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Originally Posted by Zhamkyong

I know a raider who got into this wall, got her pretty hard in her selfsteem due to lack of communication of the party. She had a static, but due to circumstances now she has to resort to pugs to complete Ex and Savage. So far she has completed previous Savage succesfully, but due to this problem she could not even try a fight.

It goes along the lines of: "Kick this RDM", sometimes even witouth a word.

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Feeling the same pain. I was a bench member of a static (cannot commit to the full schedule). Without warning, last night the static's PF changed to exclude RDM only. I immediately left the static's discord channel.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Machinist can never pull Black Mage or current Monk numbers otherwise Melee DPS serve zero purpose. They're inherently at a disadvantage due to being the only DPS forced to entirely stop attacking based on range. While the solution is often janky uptime strats... why bother with those when you can simply run all range jobs and achieve the same overall damage without any drawbacks?

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To play devil's advocate...

Stacking MCH (or anything more than two ranged) comes with a whole percent off of the total rDPS, which at 75k is substantial. There's a post right now theorizing you could double stack BLM over taking BLM+BRD and the loss means nothing; this is because of how much more damage BLM does than bard, but hypothetically if MCH and, say, SAM, did the same damage it wouldn't serve total rDPS well to just stack MCH over taking MCH+SAM. At most maybe you'd have people going 2r1m1c.

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Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

To play devil's advocate...

Stacking MCH (or anything more than two ranged) comes with a whole percent off of the total rDPS, which at 75k is substantial. There's a post right now theorizing you could double stack BLM over taking BLM+BRD and the loss means nothing; this is because of how much more damage BLM does than bard, but hypothetically if MCH and, say, SAM, did the same damage it wouldn't serve total rDPS well to just stack MCH over taking MCH+SAM. At most maybe you'd have people going 2r1m1c.

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Ehh, on the flip side, thats only knocking your dps down to 74.25k. Realistically, unless your dying at 1% enrage, that 1% damage wont matter. Which I get is actually happening to some groups. But Im sure its MUCH more common that your dying at a much higher % or killing it with a much more comfy window.

Either way, wont hurt that much.

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Originally Posted by geekgirl101

We only got 2 utility spells for crying out loud and casting them affects our damage since they consume our dualcast. If you had a BLM and RDM side by side and they did the same damage but the RDM had to keep ressing people or self-healing you would still have the BLM doing more damage than the RDM. That's not to say I want RDM to be doing the same as a BLM but gee, this expansion is gonna make me quit if RDM isn't gonna get any love soon and I'm quite frankly tired of the arguments where people are quite happy to worship BLM and snort at every other DPS jobs.

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My post wasn’t saying I was against buffing RDM i was saying I don’t think our Raid value is high enough to justify our numbers.

Sadly there’s no indication of their opinon on red mage, which means we don’t actually know what they intend with the job.

I am cautious however, as I am concerned we will fly under the radar due to them focusing on ninja summoner and samarui and we will end up delayed til a patch after 5.1 though

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Originally Posted by AbyssDarks

Ehh, on the flip side, thats only knocking your dps down to 74.25k. Realistically, unless your dying at 1% enrage, that 1% damage wont matter. Which I get is actually happening to some groups. But Im sure its MUCH more common that your dying at a much higher % or killing it with a much more comfy window.

Either way, wont hurt that much.

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It's cutting edge-level minor differences, to be sure. But in the hypothetical, stacking too many MCH (defined as: enough to lose 1% stats or more in party bonuses for not having one member of each role type in the party) just because MCH does MNK-level damage is still a dps negative; at most you'd see 2mch / 1melee / 1caster, perhaps, and the implications of that are up for interpretation. Last I checked as well, double stacking jobs still comes with a penalty to LB generation which itself hurts dps, but it's not as immediately noticeable.

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Originally Posted by Drayos

My post wasn’t saying I was against buffing RDM i was saying I don’t think our Raid value is high enough to justify our numbers.

Sadly there’s no indication of their opinon on red mage, which means we don’t actually know what they intend with the job.

I am cautious however, as I am concerned we will fly under the radar due to them focusing on ninja summoner and samarui and we will end up delayed til a patch after 5.1 though

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Seems to be going same route as Stormblood, every job seen multiple changes until they even decided to look at Red Mage. They do not seem to care or think the job is fine as is i suppose

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Originally Posted by Dommy-Notatop

(I would like to preface this by saying I feel like NIN and DNC might have similar feelings on the subject but as I don't play either of the classes I cannot comment on them)
(Also I'm new to forums so if I mess up some wording, phrasing and terms I apologize for any confusion.)

So as a casual raider (I attempt savage with pugs every other patch cycle) I've hit a wall this patch with what I assume is people "meta-slaving" in the party finder. Ive seen quite a number of parties who will refuse RDM's due to their lack of DPS compared to other classes. The logic I see people applying to support their decision to not include RDM's goes something like this:
"RDM is only good if they can utilize their raise. But in any case raising should be left to the healers as its a DPS loss. IF deaths become frequent enough for verraise to gain value then the total party DPS is too low and we will wipe from enrage or another DPS check."

I understand that RDM's safety net from verraise definitely warrants having a lower maximum dps potential. (especially compared to BLM) But it's at the point where some of the community will shun RDM players because of the lack of damage they bring.
I just want the class I play and love to be accepted by the community, I dont expect us to be anywhere near the top of the dps classes but could we at least be given a chance?

Im not a theory-crafter so I don't know how to fix it but even something small, for example; making embolden affect all damage types could help us out greatly. (I know that Trick Attack is a point of contention for NIN and this is essentially give us RDM Trick. But Its an example of how a small change can make our kit go from unwanted by all to loved by the community)

Please let me know what other suggetions you have, or ways that RDM could be adjusted so we're not thought of as dead weight! (because we're not!)

(final disclaimer: I believe that if allowed to RDM can definitely complete all the raids. I don't think we're useless and I LOVE everything about rdm from its gameplay flow to aesthetic. PLAY WHAT YOU WANT CAUSE YOU ENJOY IT BUT DON'T TELL OTHERS THEY CAN'T PLAY BECAUSE OF THEIR CLASS!!!)

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Solution:

1.)become more skilled at your job
2.) If you do not enjoy the group then form your own.
3.) If you do not enjoy the job then get a different one.

Notes:
Every job configuration is capable of clearing content so you post is irrelevant and working as intended. If there were issues then they would have addressed it in the most recent live letter.

Have a nice day

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Originally Posted by AbelArchaniEA

Solution:

1.)become more skilled at your job
2.) If you do not enjoy the group then form your own.
3.) If you do not enjoy the job then get a different one.

Notes:
Every job configuration is capable of clearing content so you post is irrelevant and working as intended. If there were issues then they would have addressed it in the most recent live letter.

Have a nice day

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Lol. Because the bottom floor can clear content imbalance is fine.

Why does ninja need buffs then? Why’s Sam getting buffs, why was monk buffed?

Every job configuration?

I’d love to see double ninja red mage dancer make dps checks in E4.

Any job could clear all the content yes but does not mean changes are not needed @Abel. And clearly they have not addressed core problems with some jobs
@Drayos I would agree that doubles like 2 RM, 2 Nin or 2 DNC for example it would be damn hard if at even possible to meet the dps checks
Currently RM is rather weak AF, DNC could use slight dmg buff and Ninja well...

Red mage is just barely behind Summoner in terms of raid DPS. It's Black Mage that is the big outlier in the magic DPS role, not Red Mage.

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Originally Posted by MaelleRiou

Red mage is just barely behind Summoner in terms of raid DPS. It's Black Mage that is the big outlier in the magic DPS role, not Red Mage.

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This is techniqually true. As well as all jobs, the top 4 shadow all of them currently.

Problem is, you either nerf the top 4 or buff the people underperforming compared to them and when u mention nerfing a job most instantly reply with “just buff the other job instead”

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Originally Posted by Drayos

This is techniqually true. As well as all jobs, the top 4 shadow all of them currently.

Problem is, you either nerf the top 4 or buff the people underperforming compared to them and when u mention nerfing a job most instantly reply with “just buff the other job instead”

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Since it's 4 jobs at the top they can buff the others to compensate. If it was less than for then nerfs would be needed to avoid trivializing content.

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Originally Posted by MaelleRiou

Since it's 4 jobs at the top they can buff the others to compensate. If it was less than for then nerfs would be needed to avoid trivializing content.

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Yeah basically, this is the major problem overall, but a lot of people delve into job specifics needing buffing or how to change things up.

It is realistically jobs need to be pushed forward to close the huge gap currently, which has widened a lot comparatively to SB

We will see what they will do, as we don’t rly know their opinions on where RDM balance wise is

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Originally Posted by Drayos

Yeah basically, this is the major problem overall, but a lot of people delve into job specifics needing buffing or how to change things up.

It is realistically jobs need to be pushed forward to close the huge gap currently, which has widened a lot comparatively to SB

We will see what they will do, as we don’t rly know their opinions on where RDM balance wise is

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Give Jolt 2 the same potency as Verstone/Verfire?

If you did then it removes some of the RNG aspects of red mage damage since you do more damage currently with more procs. Also it still would be better to cast verstone/verfire with this buff as those spells give you more total mana than jolt, just it’s only in one color.

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Originally Posted by wereotter

Give Jolt 2 the same potency as Verstone/Verfire?

If you did then it removes some of the RNG aspects of red mage damage since you do more damage currently with more procs. Also it still would be better to cast verstone/verfire with this buff as those spells give you more total mana than jolt, just it’s only in one color.

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I wouldn’t say buff jolt, as I think it’d remove some excitement from the procs if ur doing the same numbers reguardless.

Imho I’d really like to see

Acceleration get a 2nd charge. I feel this would help uptime of procs more.

And the passive impact returned, each ability has a chance to proc impact which makes the next ability generate % more mana.

And a small buff to the mana generation from verstone and verfire.

And manafication to become a flat + 50 white and black magic.

And a small potency buff to all 3 of our AOE abilities as our AoE feels lackluster in damage

*Remembers when Stormblood dropped and BLM was suddenly raid tier garbage because no utility*

As a BLM main, I can sympathize. It seems like we're Meta every other Expansion. We got lucky this Expac because the entire job system was reworked to our advantage. Now dps utility is a one-off when it comes to anything other than buffing each other. However its always like this at the begining of a new expac. Once gear catches up and evens out, people will be slightly less critical of party comp so long as the person knows what they are doing.

Still, my black little soul is slightly amused by this. Oh community, thou art fickle. AF. ;)

Well 2 days til 5.08 it’s time to find out if we will drop further down due to the buffs to jobs around us or if we will get some buffs loool

Gonna be real, don't expect anything out the DEVs for RDM until 6.0, it's not coming and they're not removing verraise anytime soon. better to be productive and ask them to remove it later than to hope for anything with this mediocre iteration of what will always be the most overlooked and undervalued job in this game. Verraise is the reason we'll never rise above this and we need to convince them to kick it to the curb now so that they know what we want later.

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Originally Posted by Drayos

I wouldnt say RDM is that high RDPS Wise, while Majority of its Utility kit is realistically around Supporting Progression. while it is true, u cant measure its Utility by DPS As alot of The reasons to bring a RDM is Basically its Instant rezz.but for as long as they keep RDM balanced with Verraise it'll remain Ditched Every time content moves past its Progression era

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Why? After content becomes farm or older everyone else puts out even more dps and nobody is concerned about the checks.

I've never seen rdm excluded without some ulterior motive (caster lead trying to monopolize loot!)

I feel with everyone here. Rdm is my most loved/most hated dps class in Shadowbringers

I didn't think it was that bad during Stormblood. I could out-dps most average players on most classes with my Rdm. But now I only ever out-dps Dnc and the dead.

And on the Verraise discussion, there's no real point in giving us lower dps for non-dps utility. Embolden? Sure, I get that. But the very act of using Verraise is a dps loss. Giving us lower dps because of Verraise makes us take the hit twice. It also means we're ONLY good for progression. What about parties where no one dies? I'm punished for Verraise sitting uselessly on my hot bar?

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Originally Posted by plasmacutter

Why? After content becomes farm or older everyone else puts out even more dps and nobody is concerned about the checks.

I've never seen rdm excluded without some ulterior motive (caster lead trying to monopolize loot!)

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Kill time is always relevant, people want the fastest kills. It’s simple we are outclassed

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Originally Posted by Drayos

Well 2 days til 5.08 it’s time to find out if we will drop further down due to the buffs to jobs around us or if we will get some buffs loool

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Down we go.
https://eu.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...1db7c6162503b9

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Originally Posted by ChameleonMS

Down we go.
https://eu.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...1db7c6162503b9

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Yeah lmao xD

Maybe I will just play a different job if I can be assed to level another job lmao.

Otherwise maybe it’s time to just take a break from the game for a while

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Originally Posted by PatronasCharm

Something they could initially do too is have: Scorch automatically trigger: "Dualcast"

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Now this is something I could get behind.