Zenos seems to get all the breaks doesn't he? All the privileges of royalty, all the skills of a master, all the powers of a God and on top of that he can't be killed.Quote:
Originally Posted by ksuyen
-
08-06-2019, 12:20 PMEdax
-
08-06-2019, 01:24 PMEdwinLiThat is just because he is so crazy that death does not even want to touch him. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Edax
-
08-06-2019, 02:00 PMRopeDrinkIndeed, in which case it doesn't matter as he himself renounced it and seemingly has no desire for it at all, so the end result is the same - the Empire in chaos whilst it tries to realign itself. The point is, with the Empire no doubt going to enter turmoil, it may not even be Zenos who resorts to Black Rose. If not him, then possibly the Empire (new ruler or no), or possibly even the Warriors of Light who will no doubt come after us.Quote:
I want to say we've already been told that Varis named Zenos as his heir long ago, exactly to avoid a repeat of the conflict Solus caused by refusing to do so. I don't know where that information is from though.
The deed itself, yes, but as we all know, everything in between is irrelevant to him, thus he'll have no interest in BR in terms of handling the WoL/D, but he certainly might change his tune if an opportunity presents itself to force us out in the open by using it some other way, and that is a scary notion considering how apathetic he is to, well, everything.Quote:
On the other hand, I also think that Zenos is the sort of person who would prefer to do it directly.
Ah, I forgot - crippling the empire (which has been prominent throughout the game) and literally looking at the camera while mentioning a desire to abuse the Zodiark/Hydalaen fiasco (which is fresh in our minds) has nothing to do with the main story... Silly me.Quote:
it's danger caused by goals unrelated to the main story
Which does not mean he will not use it at all. "I will not have my prey stolen" is in reference to us. As I've said many times, this doesn't mean he won't consider using it for other means, particularly if its usage can force us to him. Failing that, there is every possibility of the empire using it, the "Warriors of Elidibus", or even Elidibus himself. In short, I wouldn't rule Zenos out of the Black Rose game, but I do believe it WILL be used one way or another.Quote:
won't use Black Rose because it could kill us.
Nobody anticipated Zenos. Not even Elidibus, who was literally wearing his body and with the Emporer himself. Zenos was under guise, making it easy for him to stroll in - and we all had a good look at his handy work (guards and troopers slain with a single swipe all the way to the throne room). It is not hard to imagine this happening. Zenos could have possibly fought his way to that room from the front door under full alarm due to how powerful he is, so having the luxury of sneaking in as an Officer/General is taking candy from a moogle baby.Quote:
Which is so contrived. The Emperor get stabbed with a katana in his own throne room and no one is there to protect him or even witness anything. Where's the Imperial Guard? Where's the Cameras? Where are the security systems? Throne Rooms are the last places on Eorzea where anyone should get away with an assassination.
Er, no? We had no means of slaying an Ascian at the time - the Scions were sucked away and all existing allies were otherwise engaged with the battle. There was no desperation there, it was planned - and he technically won thanks to the calling. Even without that, he would have risen over and over to wear us down. When we were called, he even knew what it was and took advantage. That isn't a desperate foe, that is us getting away by the skin of our teeth. Again.Quote:
He seemed desperate when he marched out into Ghimlyt to kill the WoL
At what point did he even remotely hint he had given up anything? Nowhere. He did no such thing and didn't come across as giving up anything. He confirmed that he was the last whole Ascian and explained in detail what he would be doing in the future, which involves the same desire to have us (WoL) removed from the game. The only defeat he admitted to was against Zenos, which, if anything, just gave him more ideas.Quote:
and he seemed like he'd just given up on the moon.
-
08-06-2019, 02:31 PMEdaxHe's announcing that he's derailed the story for his own selfish desires. Sure, it's related to the story because he's derailing it, but like I said his goals are unrelated to the main story. By assuming the role of main antagonist, he's made it all about himself. But FFXIV wasn't setup to be the Zenos Show all along.Quote:
Originally Posted by RopeDrink
https://i.imgur.com/iiXU2FP.png
https://i.imgur.com/UIl8KqQ.png -
08-06-2019, 02:39 PMIscahYou can't really say that though. He's derailing where we thought the plot was going, but that's doesn't make it unrelated to the story. He's part of the story, and his actions are influencing the direction of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Edax
-
08-06-2019, 02:54 PMEdaxWhen was the MSQ ever about The Hunt outside of Zenos being on screen? This was never setup. Zenos is related to the story in so much that he exists and his story intrudes on the main story, but his influences are derailing what FFXIV has been about.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iscah
To use an example, Zenos could get addicted to Triple Triad and derail the story even further by making the post-ShB story about Triple Triad duels. Triple Triad card games may become the story, but they were never a part of the story to begin with. Sure we might never have expected Shadowbringers to become Yu Gi Oh, but there's a good reason for that.
There's a good video that Overly Sarcastic Productions made about how random plot twists can break character and story arcs and ruin viewer engagement. It may provoke discussion, I dunno, I'll post the link.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afuwh0GXwbQ -
08-06-2019, 03:04 PMRopeDrink
Above is merely determination to not give a single inch. Square can change the course of the story however they please. They call those shots, not us. You've gone from "Unrelated" to "Derailment" purely because it involves a self-centered character in your eyes, yet everything he has done has drastic implications for the story and its most relevant plot-points no matter what way you try to spin it. This doesn't become false just because the person in question is in it for themselves.
Everything before ShB hinted at an Empire related followup, as did ShB itself, with Zenos' act now pushing it into an obvious 'chaotic' direction that may yet still force CE's vision to come to pass, just by different hands.
So, let's have a snoop at possibilities.
WoE's (Warriors of Elidibus). New sport? New allies? Enemies of all? Possibly even a partnership, one way or another. Could go numerous ways - WoE's and Zenos, Zenos and WoL, WoL & WoE's, who knows. Might be a free-for-all. Might all be handled separately.
The use of Black Rose by people other than Zenos (Empire, Elidibus). Or possibly himself if pushed.
The inability for the Scion's to defend themselves whilst on the First from, well, anyone. I fully expect at least one Scion to be killed on the Source while we witness their form on the First fade to really push out the feelsbringers.
Elidibus in general doing the whole 7th Doctor 'chess-master' shenanigans from complete safety to orchestrate a Source-nightmare.
Any/All of the above can and will involve the state of the Empire.
Any/All of the above can and will involve Zodiark and Hydalaen, which we're still fresh from.
But sure, X is selfish thus it must be derailment and not advancement. -
08-06-2019, 04:51 PMLauront
On another note, if he really wants to go ahead with his plan of hijacking the gods for a clash, he’d be better off usurping Hydaelyn, particularly if he knows the protagonist is unlikely to play ball. That will force a bad situation where you have few choices but to hijack Zodiark. I don’t think he’ll try this since he probably believes you will just merge with Hydaelyn to stop him, not realising it’s unlikely, not to mention unnecessary unless they throw in some curve ball, but it’d potentially be a better way of forcing your hand. It’d also in all likelihood be catastrophic for the world, depending on how it worked in terms of the Primal avatar.
Of course she’d resist but so would Zodiark. Either way, he’d require both to be present. I’m genuinely curious as to whether he’ll realise his ambitions or just end up having to compromise with some lesser ascendant form. -
08-06-2019, 05:09 PMLaurontAgreed on all those points. Zenos still needs the Rejoining to bring back Zodiark and if Elidibus succeeds at miring you on the First, the threat to you from the Black Rose vanishes. He has no compunction against its use, barring interference with his hunt - if it furthered it, things would change.Quote:
Originally Posted by RopeDrink
Of course it could be any number of agents in the story, but given Elidibus’s intentions my thinking is that these Warriors of which he spoke will be busying away on the First. Doesn’t preclude one (or himself) from acting out his will on the Source at the same time. -
08-06-2019, 05:19 PMAlleoMaybe I remember it wrong but wasnt this the plan that Thancred had before he collapsed? Making sure that the people ask themselves if this is truly Zenos? And wasnt it even talked about that the death of Zenos would have left Varis with another war at hand because he would have no heir left, thus Elidibus snatching the corpse was also going to put down any voice that wanted to claim the right to the throne. That does sound like he was a successor and thus his death at Ala Mhigo would have thrown the country into chaos.Quote:
Originally Posted by Erendis
Edit:
I still hope that he wont "eat" either of the crystals. Hydaelyn should be out of his reach until he can somehow find a way into that realm and Zodiark itself was split up? For him to consume that one shouldnt the rejoining be complete? And would Elidibus really stand by and let that happen? Also it would be really boring to have such a villian at the end, at least for me. I want Elidibus as the big bad at the end. Not such a character like Zenos who is just bland. Have something like that as an expansion enemy but more than that? -
08-06-2019, 07:26 PMYianKutkuMeanwhile, we can also criticize the course of the story that Square Enix decided to change, if we feel that it unceremoniously drops plot points that we feel they have been building up.Quote:
Originally Posted by RopeDrink
I mean, I criticized the Ivalice raid storyline when Ramza Lexentale's toxic attitude was suddenly changed to a gallant and kind one, and this was pointed out as hugely unusual by the NPCs, and it turned out the only explanation was "I was under a lot of stress at the time".
Similarly, we will likely never know why Varis had the creepy grin at the end of 4.56, because now he's dead, and so his motives can only be explained by other characters post-mortem, with all the biases that implies. So why have that scene at all? Why build it up only to abandon it?
Also recall that there was a very prominent slide at Fanfest that said it was "now time to take down the Garlean Empire". Except at the moment, the Garlean Empire has already been taken down effectively, through no action on our part. At the time I was assuming that it would be part of the 5.x patch stories, but now I'm not so sure. Why hype it up if it's not going to go anywhere?
It was, but the plot point was also apparently completely abandoned, since all we had was Elidizenos go "I handled it, don't worry about it". Maybe it served its purpose in getting Varis and Elidizenos to go back to Garlemald from the front lines, and so the writers decided it could be summarily dismissed?Quote:
Originally Posted by Alleo
-
08-06-2019, 10:09 PMErendisIt was and Riol proceeded with that plan after Thancred collapsed. And if I remember correctly Maxima confirmed that it was a success when he arrived in Rhalgr's Reach.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alleo
-
08-06-2019, 10:46 PMEdwinLiYep this did succeed but Elidibus directly succeeded in quieting that story after.Quote:
Originally Posted by Erendis
Still, the story has set it self up properly for 6.0 to focus on a new Civil War since even with the story quieted, there is still enough for internal conflict to rise from many political factions and both uncorrupt and corrupted nobles in the Garlean Empire with the parallel plot of concluding the long Zodiark vs Hydaelyn Arc (aka Season 1 storyline) through the finale of 6.0 to 6.3. -
08-07-2019, 12:07 AMEdaxI think you've completely missed my point. I never said Square did not have authority over their own story. I'm saying it's bad writing. Square can pull the plug on their own servers and end FFXIV whenever they wish.Quote:
Originally Posted by RopeDrink
Edit: And of course, SE's actions over their own game are up for discussion by the FFXIV community, these very forums are a testament to that. -
08-07-2019, 01:44 AMIscahAdditionally, if you talk to Yugiri at the Doman Enclave, she mentions that their spies are working in Garlemald spreading the rumours.Quote:
Originally Posted by Erendis
I don't really want a "civil war" plot. Maybe as a secondary event but not the main feature - we already had a war story in Stormblood and it was my least favourite part of the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by EdwinLi
-
08-07-2019, 02:12 AMRopeDrinkWhat was dropped? Zodiark/Hydalaen is one of the current threads. We've just had Emet giving his explanation of his version of their origins and prevented his plans. Now we're likely going to find out if they can be tapped for power - which is different to what Zenos achieved with Shinryu. This will likely result in more work to free Zodiark, unless Zenos goes for Hydalaen. The events on the first prevented a lightbound calamity of sorts, but the Zodi/Hyd angle has been waiting to be pushed, and here it is getting teased. We are going to learn even more about them - and it won't be pleasant information.Quote:
Meanwhile, we can also criticize the course of the story that Square Enix decided to change, if we feel that it unceremoniously drops plot points that we feel they have been building up.
The Empire v Alliance war was left fresh in mind when we left for the First and will be resolved when we return, for good or bad. Not only that but it will likely result in something very final for the Empire as a whole, beit its destruction or reformation. This has been ongoing for ages and, once again, things are being teased.
With the death of Emet, the Ascian plot now turns to Elidibus as the sole survivor who will be taking matters into his own hands.
I see nothing being dropped. The situation on the first was tied up quite nicely, with just enough semi-loose threads to pull while we wait for Elidibus to start causing First-Trouble. The game has been heavy on Empire & Ascian matters since ARR and one of its constants. It's still going. Meanwhile, Source events will eventually reach a boil that will no doubt demand our attention and lead to some serious shenanigans.
I seem to be one of few people who are genuinely excited to see how scary and nasty this gets, which it can (and likely will) after the success of SHB and its darker (re. lighter) themes.
No, you did. The post had less to do with affirming Square's ownership and more to do with pointing out that none of us are an authority on what is or should be 'the story' as a whole when criticizing it (mostly reference to the whole 'derailment' trite when, in reality, it's all relevant - just done at the hands of a character some people don't like). They're pushing it in a direction and it's going there. You don't have to like how it goes and you don't have to like certain characters (and there's nothing wrong with discussing or criticizing it if that is the case - that is what we are here for), but everything Zenos did relates to matters that have been prevalent both in the past and present of the story and they're pushing it into an obvious direction, not derailing it. Comments like "Yeah, well, X villain could have done the same" is not helpful, nor is bashing characters based on what we believe was/is/should be the story (rather than what it officially is).Quote:
I think you've completely missed my point.
They've constantly teased the current weakness of the Scions, constantly teased chemical weapons which we've discovered was a cause of a future calamity and the death of the WoL, but in the words of Estinien (from memory, so not 100%) - "What now? The game is the same but the pieces have changed" - and they're changing to someone who you really, really don't want to have a hand in Source matters. Someone who absolutely WOULD hunt down those Scions and slay them in their 'sleep', someone who WOULD use Black Rose if it suited him (or instigated situations where others use it instead), someone who WOULD pursue Zodi/Hyde and cause absolute annihilation by releasing them, slaying them or using them - all without any kind of care for what is wrought. And with potential Warriors of Light getting involved to stop us as well, just like the Ascian's used before?
Bad news bears for the source and I'm looking forward to seeing how it pans out. -
08-07-2019, 02:32 AMDaraliiAlso presumably on their summoning and how they function, and with information on the summoning comes information on the WoL's former self.Quote:
Originally Posted by RopeDrink
I'm expecting the severely weakened Crystal Mom to willingly impart the entirety of her remaining power unto her summoner along with an Echo vision of the final hours of the old world, while Zenos attempts to take power from Zodiark by force and has his will subsumed. -
08-07-2019, 02:50 AMElladieIn YOUR opinion, Zenos doesn't do these things as a character. I can offer multiple examples that suggest otherwise. As adversaries representing opposing beliefs, I can argue that Zenos and the Warrior are a microcosm of Zodiark and Hydaelyn. I can look at the visual imagery that describes both and use that to make value judgements about the use of Dark and Light as a storytelling motif. I can draw parallels between the two that takes their similarities - enormously powerful, talented and blessed individuals - to consider the why's and wherefore's of the gulf between them. In multiple ways their relationship echoes the basic premise of the story, which is about duality (possible about duality versus balance, we have yet to see, which is something Zenos could tie into very well).Quote:
Originally Posted by Edax
In many ways Zenos and the warrior are indisputably similar - their fighting abilities, their possession of some kind of 'supernatural' power that augments these abilities, the way they both stand out from the crowd, their isolation because of this. The ways in which they are different only heighten the similarities and vice versa. That you dismiss this - I have no idea why since it's made quite obvious - is one of the reasons you don't see Zenos as relevant.
He isn't a complex character for the most part, but he has space for complexities to develop. He doesn't need to be complex to provide a powerful foil for the Warrior and - if the player is inclined to do so - cause him/ her to question his/her motivations as the Warrior. Especially as part of the losses he/she has suffered during the HW/SB arcs and as deliciously developed in the DRK story.
You are entitled to dislike Zenos as a character. You're not entitled to dress that up as fact when it's merely opinion. In my opinion Zenos is interesting, but I can understand why some dislike him. I'm happy to engage in discussion but not with someone who attempts to shut everything down with 'no, I'm right and you're wrong'. This is what you are doing when you describe literary criticism as objective. No critic in the world worth their salt would agree with you. We can all have opinions and back up our arguments with examples from the text, but in the end it's all subject to interpretation.
You seem not to get this at all -
08-07-2019, 03:26 AMQT_Melon
I'm just thinking hero's monomyth. The biggest loss would be the one who started the game with us. Hydaelyn. :P
At the same time we keep regaining more pieces of our soul (the transformation).
So would the end result in the world transforming but moving on?
Would it be that we regain much of ourselves only to sunder ourselves once again, to repeat the process...in a way like Journey (the video game). -
08-07-2019, 03:31 AMEdaxThen do so. Just saying:Quote:
Originally Posted by Elladie
is just a way of dismissing the discussion. Make your case instead of dismissing mine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elladie
Show the visual imagery. "Enormously powerful, talented and blessed individuals" describes a LOT of characters in FFXIV. Why are Zenos and the WoL specific parallels to each other? If your not bothering to draw on objective facts to form the basis of your argument, then I can just dismiss it as your opinion, which would make the entire thing a waste of time. I'm not here to learn about whether you liked Zenos or not.
But you can say the say thing about Emet, Lahabrea, Lady Iceheart, Estinien, the Heavensward, ect ect. The similarities are superficial. Provide objective facts to the argument and maybe it'll be a little stronger. Where do Zenos and the WoL parallel each other where most other antagonists do not? We can agree Zenos and the WoL wield weapons, that doesn't make them parallel each other substantively.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elladie
You're attempting to shut down this discussion by calling everything I say opinions. Saying I like Zenos or you dislike Zenos is a substanceless discussion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elladie
Is this the point where I dismiss this statement and say "in YOUR opinion"?Quote:
Originally Posted by Elladie
You say you can make your case, then make it. Why only imply you can make your case and instead offer your opinion instead? Back it up with objectivity. Use the facts of the story. -
08-07-2019, 03:33 AMJaywalkerHonestly the whole thread has gotten too dramatic. 100% why I stopped posting in it overall. Think your point on criticism and objectivity versus subjectivity is very interesting and important though, so making one exception.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elladie
Far as I've seen, at best storytelling is semi-objective/semi-subjective. Certain pieces are measurable and can be discussed as facts (ex. grammar or certain cause/effect chains backed up with concrete evidence) but these are both extremely simple premises and need to be qualified by the nature of the work with what it aims to accomplish.
For instance, if someone is writing a story in 100% perfect grammar down to dialogue, it might actually come across as less realistic and immersive than a story where characters occasionally use slang and improper grammar. This is because real people tend not to use perfect grammar all the time.
When people argue storytelling is 100% subjective, it can be used as an attempt to shield from criticism and excuse stagnation as a creator. It also sets up a framework where people get bitter that a masterpiece succeeded while something amateur failed, arguing there is no difference because it's all just based on subjective feelings.
However. The idea that fiction is completely objective is ridiculous and requires the denial that every single person on this planet has biases and prejudices keeping them from true objectivity. Especially when it comes to crafts that are shaped by subjective human beings in the first place, and that people like to push the boundaries of what can be done successfully. Gotta simplify way too much to apply the same rules to every single story.
There's a middle ground for this stuff. The more extreme and absolute arguments get, the more they tend to lose sight of relevant information and oversimplify imo. No doubt there will be people who disagree.
Unrelated, I think LineageRazor made a point on the Bechdel Test being used as a way to simply see how often two women talking about something other than a man happens, without judgment attached. Hamlet versus Hamlette frequency iirc. Since I was so vocal before about being against the Bechdel Test with how it's usually employed, I just want to say that was a super solid argument and did change my mind on there being no good use. -
08-07-2019, 03:47 AMLineageRazor
There's nothing objectively bad about the writing here. It is entirely subjective. We've known for a long time that Zenos was going to have a confrontation of some kind in Garlemald. His periodic cameos throughout SB showed him making his way there. Some theorized that he'd seek out the WoL, some theorized that he'd seek out his old body. The latter turned out to be correct. The foreshadowing was there, and the story followed through. That's clean writing.
What would happen at that confrontation was up in the air. Zenos literally cutting short his father's plans was not on many folks' radar, but the fact that it was unexpected does not make it bad. Literature has many examples of characters with complicated plans and motivations that end abruptly and without resolution - in fact, this very game has already had another great example with Nanamo's assassination. Most players thought it was an amazing and interesting story development, and had SE followed through, the story Ul'dah's escalating unrest in the face of their lost champion could have been very intense. Many were disappointed when SE basically said "Just kidding, LOL" later on - now THAT, I might call bad writing - but the "shocking swerve" of Nanamo's ambitions suddenly being derailed was not, itself, bad.
The story of "How Garlemald Falls Apart With or Without Zenos At the Helm" could turn out to be just as engaging as the story of "How Varis Leads the World to Ruin With a Half-Baked Plan to Beat the Ascians At Their Own Game". We won't know until it is written - but the fact that Varis's plans came to a sudden, violent end is not an example of objectively bad storytelling. (Indeed, if it can even be argued that "objectively bad storytelling" is not an inherently contradictory phrase.) -
08-07-2019, 04:17 AMEdaxI suppose the difference here is that Nanamo's ambitions were not related to the main story. Abdicating the throne and giving Ul'dah to people really had nothing to do with the Light/Dark conflict, so it was merely a plot tangent that was getting derailed. Varis' plan was the Rejoining, so it was central to the main story, derailing that storyline has different consequences to the story structure. I might have even have been able to say the end of 5.0 was the end of the main storyline if not for the Elidibus on the moon plotting to keep that storyline going. So the main storyline running from way back to 2.0 has not yet reached it's destination when it was derailed by Zenos.Quote:
Originally Posted by LineageRazor
The story of "How Garlemald Falls Apart With or Without Zenos At the Helm" could be good, but getting to this story was not clean writing.
As much as I love the Heavensward story, even that was derailment of the main story. Light/Dark stopped being a thing and the Ascians turned into extras hanging out in the background. The Zenos story might be good when judged as a self-contained story, but it is nonetheless going to be part of the MSQ that's been running since 2.0. What will make it difficult to judge Zeno's story like a separate episode is that he was already the antagonist from Stormblood. -
08-07-2019, 08:56 AMQT_Melon
To be fair, I don't think that's valid about Nanamo since we didn't really even know about the LIGHT and DARK being the main conflict till much later - I mean as the REAL story. It could have been about Uldah and it succumbing to Garlean influence for all we knew back then. Our main focus was the dragonsong war. All the hydaelyn stuff was dripped in the background, and the Ascians were still Kingdom Hearts rejects that spoke mysteriously.
-
08-07-2019, 09:20 AMCilia
There is no one thing the game's narrative is supposed to be about, and although the Ascians are the villains of the main myth arc so far, they often act through proxies. Naturally, not every antagonist is going to be aligned with their goals; in fact the only non-Ascian antagonist interested in aiding them was Varis (albeit for his own agenda).
Each expansion has its own story arc, with the Zodiark / Hydaelyn myth arc connecting them all together. Just because the antagonist of one story arc isn't connected to or concerned with the myth arc doesn't mean they're poorly written; Nidhogg was completely apart from the Zodiark / Hydaelyn myth arc, but that doesn't mean he was poorly written.
Zenos serves primarily as the PC's foil: a character that is the complete opposite yet equal to them. The PC possesses a natural Echo and uses it to slay primals, while Zenos' is artificial and is used to merge with primals. The PC uses their immense power to end conflicts, while Zenos uses his political clout to start them. The PC masters multiple disciplines, while Zenos sits at the pinnacle of just one. Some measure of the PC's strength comes from their eightfold (ninefold after Shadowbringers) rejoined soul, while Zenos is (to the best of our knowledge) just freakishly powerful. The PC is a normal person who blew into a city-state with nothing but the clothes on their back and a ruddy weapon in their hand, while Zenos was born into utmost privilege and collects only the finest armaments.
Yet, both stand at the center of world-shaking events and cross swords to shape the future.
If the PC chooses to accept Zenos after his rant in the Royal Menagerie, however, he essentially becomes their shadow: all of the dark, negative things about themselves they won't (or can't) admit. In simplest terms, it becomes an admission that you're just using the noble causes of the Eorzeans (etc.) as an excuse to chase a combat high, just like Zenos does with the Empire. (One can argue that this isn't true of their PC's characterization, but remember that PCs are just projections of the player's will on the game world...)
Something to remember: XIV has a continuous, ongoing narrative. Plot hooks for future events may be set up years in advance, as was the case with the Warriors of Darkness and the Flood of Light - they were first hinted at back in the ending of 3.0 and had a little action in 3.1 and 3.4, but didn't really take center stage until 5.0. While Zenos was the main antagonist of the Stormblood arc (which itself had nothing to do with the myth arc beyond proxies), surviving despite his best efforts means he can just return to antagonize us again, and may or may not play into story themes moving forward. There's nothing poorly written about that, either - it was established back in 2.2 that the Echo can be used to cheat death.
It's perfectly understandable to not like Zenos and/or be uninterested in the themes behind his character, but that doesn't mean he's poorly written (I found Heavensward's themes pretty trite, even if the writing was still good). Just because he has no stake in the myth arc doesn't mean Zenos is poorly written either (Yotsuyu has no stake in the myth arc, but I hold her to be one of the best written antagonists in the game thus far for her thought-provoking actions in 4.3). Not everyone is going to like him, and that's fine, but trying to tout personal taste in antagonists as an objective measure of writing quality is (again) just self-aggrandizement. (Or: Who gave anyone authority to determine what objectively constitutes quality writing?) -
08-07-2019, 12:37 PMAyuhra
My only hope is Zenos is fleshed out a bit. I don't dislike him as a plot device but I, like a few others it seems, am not super into him as a character.
It will be somewhat jarring, for example, swapping to Zenos from Emet-Selch who is actually very well rounded and interesting as a character.
Zenos has time for more character building. -
08-07-2019, 01:17 PMEdaxAnyone willing to discuss the quality of a work has the authority using facts. There's no one here that can take that authority away.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cilia
No one granted you authority to say that Yotsuyu was "best written" because nobody needed to grant you authority. We're all allowed to discuss quality, it's not all about your personal tastes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cilia
Amusingly, I did refer to the Ascians as Kingdom Hearts rejects too back in AAR, but Lahabrea does give away his evil plans long before Nanamo drinks away at the end of the AAR filler.Quote:
Originally Posted by QT_Melon
https://i.imgur.com/9KehgOq.png -
08-07-2019, 09:54 PMQT_Melon
Oh I know we were aware of Ascians before the end of ARR because we're beaten over the head with the MSQ (we can't skip cutscenes). I'm saying that however, the amount we're given didn't seem to really come to pay off UNTIL Shadowbringers or at least till the end of Stormblood. And given Elidibus and changing dialog. Elidibus actually was discussing BALANCE of Dark and Light. Hydaelyn's account of the world is a bit different than revealed storyline in Shadowbringers. So because of that slow drip of story the idea that Nanamo's storyline wasn't in direct relation to the main one was something we figure out only AFTER the fact. It could have been but we just didn't know at the time since there is a lot of stories to our world to begin with.
The current storyline is something of the "origin story" arc. Kind of like JoJo's Bizarre Adventures just not told in chronological order - we started off in FFXIV's Stardust Crusaders and just started learning about the Battle Tendency arc and possibly Phantom Blood ;) -
08-08-2019, 01:04 AMEdaxI guess I can see your point given just how much pointless filler was stuffed into the AAR MSQ. I kind of struggle to remember what happened in between Pretorium and the start of Heavensward. We meet a bunch of characters that don't do anything, Alphinaud funds a paramilitary force, Minfilia get's kidnapped by Ascians, a Scion is introduced and then killed off, Lady Iceheart is a problem, something about a Garlean spy, Tataru makes us go make tea and Nanamo wants to abdicate. It is a hot mess.Quote:
Originally Posted by QT_Melon
I do agree that the Ascians were underdeveloped until Shadowbringers. I do however find it disappointing that once the Ascians were developed, the story focus immediately moved away from them. Zenos already had an entire expansion to be developed but instead the Ascians ended up more development in a single expansion with Emet getting an entire city made just for his character development. Now that I finally understood the Ascians, I was left wanting to know more. This is subjective but the only thing I want to know about Zenos is how to permanently remove him from the story. -
08-08-2019, 02:31 AMQT_Melon
Did it move away from them? I mean it just seems another part of the patch cycle. Set up a future event after the current one may be done. We still don't know EXACTLY what direction this will go? Keep in mind in an interview with Yoshi P - it was mentioned that we're gonna be hitting certain turmoil (as it was described in interview) for patches following.
What exactly is the turmoil? Is it really Zenos, Elidibus? Our eldest Primals? I mean we know it may involve all of them or some of them. While I get that Zenos will be it going forward, we don't know exactly how so I'm going to be "waiting and seeing" before passing judgement.
Hell I thought the Ascians weren't that great till recently. -
08-08-2019, 03:05 AMEdaxWell, Elidibus sounded like he was thwarted. His plan to summon Warriors of Light from yet another reflection and tie down the Warrior of Darkness in the First is just a repeat of the plan from Heavensward. It looks like he's just spinning his wheels in the mud from his setback with Zenos. On top of that, we don't know Elidibus that well so I'm predicting that the focus will be on Zenos.Quote:
Originally Posted by QT_Melon
https://i.imgur.com/lUsJJNG.png -
08-08-2019, 11:51 AMRopeDrinkSay's who? Zenos had 1.5 scenes this expansion, not including Elidizenos. Elidibus' only self-admitted defeat was an inability to physically fight Zenos head-on despite wearing his body (something we as the WoL struggled with numerous times ourself in the past). Heck, even fighting Elidizenos before ShB was a struggle in itself that he could have won. Despite not being able to match Zenos at the time, it gave Elidibus more ideas for the future, as hinted by his dialogue.Quote:
I do however find it disappointing that once the Ascians were developed, the story focus immediately moved away from them.
Wake up already - he's a bloody Ascian! 90% of their dialogue involves shoving variations of "WE LOVE CHAOS AND PLOTTING" down our necks repeatedly. This situation will, in the end, become preferable for Elidibus, more so as we cannot exactly fly to the moon and give him a stern talking to. Warriors of Light on their own are bad enough. Zenos on his own is bad enough. All of them in combination, whilst also being familiar with the 'will of the planet' debacle from the First and how it relates to the Source? That is not good in any way, shape or form, less so if any of them make an effort to free Zodiark, intentionally or even unintentionally.
Sheesh, Zenos putting the nightcap on the "Road Trip of Estinien and Gaius" doesn't necessarily mean "Hi guys, say hello to your new-old poster child". It's funny how someone (me) who actually likes Zenos is the only one who genuinely suspects he will be a background influencer rather than the main star. -
08-08-2019, 12:18 PMNucah
Truthfully I've always thought that Zenos was a terrible villain and he was and remains very uninteresting to me personally.
I loved Nidhogg as a villain and Emet Selch was absolutely fantastic as a villain too. I was hoping that we'd finally finish off Zenos at the end of Stormblood and really didn't like how that played out.
Honestly, I hope that we kill him off soon (even though I don't think we will) so that we can get back to more interesting villains. A good villain can help make or break a story. -
08-08-2019, 12:25 PMEdaxI said it.Quote:
Originally Posted by RopeDrink
Quote:
Originally Posted by Edax
You felt the need to remind me that he's an Ascian? Go back to sleep.Quote:
Originally Posted by RopeDrink
Zenos is a blunt instrument. He's not a background influencer.Quote:
Originally Posted by RopeDrink
-
08-08-2019, 12:48 PMIscahThat logic doesn't make sense. We don't know any character well until they become a focus character. We didn't know Emet-Selch before this expansion, or anyone we met on the First. We barely knew G'raha Tia.Quote:
Originally Posted by Edax
You can't be sure who is important in the future based on where they are now, and Elidibus is in place to play some kind of important role. -
08-08-2019, 12:51 PMCiliaThose facts can (and will) be interpreted different ways. There's no right or wrong way to do so, so therefore there is no objective measure of writing quality.Quote:
Originally Posted by Edax
I didn't say Yotsuyu was "best written." What I said was...Quote:
Originally Posted by Edax
Not that she is the objectively best written antagonist, just that I personally feel she is one of the best. Others may agree or disagree, as is their right. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cilia
... but I'm not going to tell anyone who is and is not well-written, or try to make a literary test determining that for them based on arbitrary criteria I came up with. -
08-08-2019, 12:56 PMEdaxWell we did get a lot of setup with Emet-Selch before he took center stage as main antagonist. Not only did you have his conversations with Varis before ShB, but you also have most of Shadowbringers building him up before he comes the main antagonist. Zenos is known to use, he's been setup long ago. I grant you that an antagonist like Vaultry were introduced and dispatched in the same storycycle, but since the MSQ segments of the decimal patches are quite short that I don't think there's enough time to establish Elidibus that well so that's why I don't think he'll get much focus.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iscah
And from a meta perspective, he's the last major chess piece on the board, I don't think SE can put him out front and center yet. If he's taken out, the Ascians lose. -
08-08-2019, 07:31 PMRopeDrinkYou need a nap more than I do if you're incapable of reading the full sentence for context, or genuinely believe Elidibus speech was an "I'm so thwarted" monologue.Quote:
You felt the need to remind me that he's an Ascian? Go back to sleep.
"Whelp, Emet is dead. I'm now the last Plotty McChaos. Nobody could have anticipated that katana-wielding guy Edax hates so much. Oh, woe is me for not being able to take him on. Ah, but this presents some opportunities. Oh yes, we're not finished yet Mrs.HydeCrystal. Imma enjoy seeing how this newfound chaos unfolds while I recruit more WoL-bros. They'll keep the WoD busy while I grab my popcorn and be Plotty McChaos. I'll delete the WoD from existence if it's the last fictional thing I do. By jove, see you in the next expansion, boi." -
08-09-2019, 12:24 AMEdaxElidibus admitting he could no longer control the currents of time was an admission of himself being thwarted. His plan requires nothing less then to shape history.Quote:
Originally Posted by RopeDrink
-
08-09-2019, 01:27 AMKobalos
I like Zenos as a villain yes he is one dimensional and simple but not every villain has to be complex like Emet. I really liked Emet's story line and was nice top have a well rounded villain and one you could show sympathy for even if you did not agree with his methods.
I called out Zenos doing a Kylo Ren on his old man a while ago and was slightly smug that that came to pas however I do feel he is a little over done at this point. We have fought him 4 times and I kinnda felt his story was done in SB. I do hope they have a more original approach to him in the upcoming patches. As fighting him and beating his arse is getting a lil boring.