About the Emperor [Major Spoilers for 4.4]

Regula didn't fear Varis - the pair had a strong friendship that spanned decades - and he was more than willing to turn his back on the flawed technology present in Azys Lla so it wasn't as if he was desperately seeking something to take back with him at any cost.

The initial bad blood between Regula and the Warrior of Light was based entirely on misunderstandings. Which is...exactly how things played out with Ysayle and pretty much every other antagonist that we've come to ally with after learning more about them.

At the end of the day, it is firmly established that Regula was a man of honour. Not simply within the lore book but through what we saw in-game.

He probably would've asked us to go to Garlemand to show that the echo is the correct way to remove the primal threat, that is a given by what he told to Unukalhai.

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Originally Posted by Remedi

He probably would've asked us to go to Garlemand to show that the echo is the correct way to remove the primal threat, that is a given by what he told to Unukalhai.

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Yeah. I didn't sense anything sinister about his intentions. By the point of his death, he'd come to respect the Warrior of Light and spoke with him intimately. He seemed smart enough to realise that brute force wasn't the way to go in every situation - as evidenced by him walking away from the flawed tech and defending someone who had been an enemy combatant until the alliance was forged.

It also makes a lot more sense as of 4.4 - we know that Varis is a cautious man who is in an unpleasant predicament. A man who is doing his very best to avoid letting war break out. I suspect that Alphinaud will meet with him at some point and further soften his view of the Warrior of Light. It'd make sense since Alphinaud spoke with Varis directly back in Heavensward and since that point both have had their world views shaken immensely.

As for the Echo, it's likely that the only reason that the Garleans feared it in the first place was due to Ascian meddling. Varis, at least, is likely smart and strategic enough to realise that the Echo and/or the Resonance is the best way forward.

Regula, while holding onto certain Garlean ideals that weren't particularly agreeable, was still at his core a man who strongly believed in the future of his nation and its people, and a man of honor. He was a dedicated person, with a strong sense of duty that allowed him to set aside his differences with the Scions and the WoL in order to save his men and deal with the threat of Zurvan. He was immensely loyal to Varis, both as a subject and a friend. It's a shame he was simply killed off without exploring him more as a character, as I felt he had a lot of potential.

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Originally Posted by ObsidianFire

The XIVth Legion is probably the ultimate example of a corrupt Imperial Legion and what Varis was trying to avoid. The XIVth Legion was so loyal to their Legatus that they followed him into exile. In terms of weakening Garlemald's military, convincing the remaining Legati that there's something screwy going on in the Garlean Government wouldn't be a bad way to go about it. It would just depend on who the other nine Legati are and how good their reasoning skills are. Although, given that we've seen Legati like Zenos and Nael, that's not exactly a high bar to hurdle.

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I have to disagree with this, ObsidianFire. In my opinion, to state that the XIVth are corrupt is false and if anything, their actions underline the exact opposite. Before I venture further, I’m sincerely attempting to understand your comment as fairly as I can and clarify what type of corruption you are referring to… is it financial, cronyism or discipline?

Indeed, I might sound biased because I’m a massive fan of Gaius’ potential in the upcoming MSQ for 5.0; however, let us examine the three main elements related to this argument (Gaius, his officers, his troops) and list the clear facts:

• A Garlean legion is made up of approximately 6,000 troops and it is safe to assume that a sizable number of them are from several regions of the empire (they are not all pure blood Garleans). That he was able to make this entire legion of six thousand souls (which comprised of various cultures and “nationalities”) fiercely loyal to him shows incredible leadership skills. Ergo, we can conclude that it is not their discipline that was corrupted… if they were, they would have repeatedly committed acts of desertion, in-house fighting and atrocities during his conquest of five different cities.
• The three main officers of the XIVth earned their positions, which speaks volumes of the fact that Gaius clearly favours a meritocracy style of leadership within his legion. This sort of precedence rules out corruption based on cronyism, class or racism.
• Gaius had repeatedly shown himself to exhibit a fair but firm style of orderly governance during his time at Ala Mhigo. In addition, this cutscene HERE from 2.0 gives us a very short yet very clear insight into his solid abilities as a leader… Innovation and Creativity (to Nero); Delegation and Empowerment (to Rhitahtyn). I would even venture forth and claim that the Devs included this particular scene just so that we could get a glimpse into the type of capable leader that he was. This rules out corruption by ineptitude leadership.

Are the XIVth then exhibiting corruption only because they did not return to the capital as ordered? Let’s take a step back and examine the leadership system of the legions of real life Rome... these troops were fiercely loyal to their Legatus in the field which is why at various times during the history of Rome, they have even marched on the capital at the behest of their leader. A prime example of this was the all famous Gaius Julius Caesar who had several legions of elite veterans.

https://i.imgur.com/LLjHVpL.png

Gaius Julius Caesar and his legions during the ancient Roman Empire:

Allow me to drum up some of my recollection of Caesar’s history with his legions (yes, I love history). In 61 BC after the Senate, Pompey and his enemies relegated him away from Rome to become the Governor of the province of Hispania Ulterior, he inherited two legions-- about twenty cohorts (see image above)--which were already based in the province. These were the Eighth and Ninth Legions.

Note that at this time, he was still a member of the powerful First Triumvirate --which is why he was able to get massive five-year terms as Governor rather than one or two years – however, he had some financial issues with several of the Senate and Pompey was beginning to side more and more with the Optimates. Mind you, Caesar was born an Optimate (from a very ancient aristocratic line) but he eventually sided with the Populares because he was shrewd enough to understand that they would form his foundations of his power. It was a clever way for him to oppose his enemies in the Senate... win over the hearts of the populace. And he did... tremendously.

Anyway, due to the fact that the two legions he inherited in Hispania were initially loyal to Pompey, Caesar couldn’t fully trust them just yet, and he also needed more troops to carry out his plan of conquest in Gaul. Thus, he swiftly got the Senate to grant him the authority to levy more legions.

The Senate happily agreed to his request for legal authority to levy legions as needed especially since he agreed to bear most of the financial burden for these new troops. In reality, it was well known that he had a massive growing debt at the capital and his enemies in the Senate were hoping that these new legions would finally bankrupt him. So they hastily gave him legal authority to levy as many legions as he needed. This was their first of many fatal mistakes.

As such, he levied the first of his own brand spanking new legions… his famous Tenth legion. Exactly like Gaius Van Baelsar (who had the XIVth created for him--please refer to page 185 of the Encyclopedia), this was the first legion who were truly created by Caesar for Caesar… and their fanatical loyalty to him was legendary. I repeat, legendary… and they were his favourites. In fact, they were so loyal that even after his death, they fought for his successors, Mark Anthony and then Octavian (Augustus) --his great nephew, heir and first Emperor of Rome. And historians propose that when Octavian would later form the Praetorian Guard (who answered only to himself, the Emperor), many of them were selected from Caesar's veteran legions. They were the first troops to wear purple with their armour--Note, image below is not how they looked and is just posted here to buttress my point because they looked spiffy.

https://i.imgur.com/7snoe55.jpg

Back to Caesar.

In time, fueled by the incredible massive funds and resources won from his Gallic wars, he levied more legions, of which the famous Thirteenth legion would also become one of his favourites. This is the famous Thirteenth legion that he crossed the Rubicon with when he marched on Rome and the main legion depicted in the very successful “Rome” series that ran on HBO about ten or eleven years ago. I very highly recommend that everyone find time to watch that show (two seasons, 22 episodes)… one of the very best shows on HBO at the time and one that very closely exhibited that era of Roman culture, war and politics.

The key point here is that Caesar was known for his excellent oratory skills and eloquence... and his inspiring speeches to his troops made them believe they were literally his adopted sons. Not only that, many times, he was right there at the head of his armies, fighting tooth and nail in the bloody trenches. Which is one of the reasons why they were so loyal to him and would've followed him to hell and back if need be.

When we now apply all this to Gaius and his XIVth legion, we have a clear inkling why they were still loyal to him even if it meant exhibiting mutiny to the empire. It is not that they were corrupt… they were just loyal. And like the real Caesar, I highly suspect that Gaius gave his troops some kind of rousing speech (before and after the events at the Praetorium) that made them turn their backs on the machinations of the Empire.

I think he told them the truth about Solus.

This is another prime reason I’m certain that Gaius knew about Solus’ real nature and his plans; thus, decided to disregard the order to return to the capital during the war of Succession. And his troops gladly followed him because their eyes were now open to an empire built on lies... not that they were corrupt.

Real-world history, while potentially giving context, may not apply to the Garlean Empire.

Minus the history lesson, the fact Gaius and the rest of the XIVth were charged with desertion and marked for death by the Empire says a lot about how it treats legions more loyal to their legatus than the Imperial government. Regardless of whether or not one considers it corruption, it's clearly not tolerated by the Empire.

... and there's nothing suggesting Gaius knew how far the Ascian corruption in the Empire reached during 2.0, or even knows now. Until we're told otherwise my best guesses for as to why Gaius decided to desert was because he decided subjugating Eorzea took priority over his loyalty to the throne (and chose to go rogue in full knowledge it would likely get him executed by the Empire), or wanted to get a victory for the Empire in an otherwise uncertain time. As far as we know, Solus revealed his true nature to Varis alone some time before the 4.4 stinger and nobody else knows about it at all. Much else is... just speculation.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Real-world history, while potentially giving context, may not apply to the Garlean Empire.

Minus the history lesson, the fact Gaius and the rest of the XIVth were charged with desertion and marked for death by the Empire says a lot about how it treats legions more loyal to their legatus than the Imperial government. Regardless of whether or not one considers it corruption, it's clearly not tolerated by the Empire.

... and there's nothing suggesting Gaius knew how far the Ascian corruption in the Empire reached during 2.0, or even knows now. Until we're told otherwise my best guesses for as to why Gaius decided to desert was because he decided subjugating Eorzea took priority over his loyalty to the throne (and chose to go rogue in full knowledge it would likely get him executed by the Empire), or wanted to get a victory for the Empire in an otherwise uncertain time. As far as we know, Solus revealed his true nature to Varis during the 4.4 stinger and nobody else knows about it at all. Much else is... just speculation.

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First, where exactly does it say in-game or lore wise that the XIVth have been marked for death? I'm actually curious about that particular statement... cite sources. If we really want to notch up the speculation gear all the way, for all we know, Gaius might secretly be working on behalf of Varis. I always did find it very coincidental he showed up right when Alphy and Maxima crash landed.

Secondly, the history "lesson" was within context... the similarities between both Gaius(es) was stated intentionally so as to underline the fact that desertion of the XIVth did not mean they were corrupt. More importantly, the Roman (and Archadian) influences within the Empire's theme has been very apparent since when Gaius was introduced to us in 2010... absolutely nothing new there.

Thirdly, yes... its all speculation... I clearly stated that above at the beginning of my comment "in my opinion"... its all speculative opinions and investigative debates...is that not the whole point of these discussions?

@Ramesses: Lol. I actually agree with your views on the XIVth Legion. Out of all the Garlean Legions they're probably the best off in terms of being able to figure out what they want to do without worrying about what the rest of Garlemald thinks of them. And yes, I do think they know something of the Ascians. If simply because I can't see the Garleans not having a mountain of surveillance in and around their own bases. The odds of them recording Lahabrea's monologue up until Ultima is cast is pretty good. That goes double if the XIVth Legion knew Gaius had survived... anyway, enough headcanon...

I was more thinking about the XIVth Legion from Varis' point of view. Here's a High Legatus who supposed to have authority over the other Legeti and their legions and clearly, he doesn't. He has to send his best friend in to clean up one of the legions that's in Ilsabard, Garleamald's native continent. And apparently, the reason that legion was corrupt in the first place was because the nations they were occupying weren't rebelling against them. Then a legion who's only ever had one legatus deserts and takes all their expertise with them (including some good tacticians and what is probably one of the best engineering divisions in the Empire ever since Cid left). And then they go somewhere that it's not very convent for the Garlean military to go to what with Garlemald being in the middle of a Civil War at the time. And all that happens after Varis specifically told them not to invade...

Like... Varis has some very good reasons to keep a stranglehold on the military. If he doesn't, I can see them turning on him. Probably because a good portion of the military was against him in the War of Succession anyway, but also because they're probably used to having a lot more leeway with the Garlean government to do whatever they want to. It seems that Solus had a habit of leaving the legions up to their own devices for obvious reasons (more chaos). Varis probably wants to reign that in so he can have more influence over the contry (instead of Solus), but like all things that have to do with Garlemald nowadays, how good an idea that is is rather murky. On the one hand, reversing an Ascian's policies is probably a good idea. On the other hand, that freedom is probably why the better Legions can get away with certain things that contribute more to stability then they do to chaos.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Nicely put!

He is described directly in the lore book as a man of honour and his deeds in-game reflect that.

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Exactly this and I absolutely agree.

During the Crystal Tower introductory quests, Nero explains that he hasn't returned to the Empire because, in following Gaius against Imperial orders, he and the other survivors of the XIVth are now considered deserters punishable by death.

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Originally Posted by Nero, "Syrcus Tower"

...But rest assured I am no longer a threat to you. My legion is for all intents and purposes defunct, and my association with it means a tight noose awaits me back in Garlemald. And so I've been roaming this land Eorzea, a regular itinerant. ...

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Regardless of whether or not one personally considers the XIVth deserting a sign of corruption, it's clearly not tolerated by the Imperial government.

Speculation is fine, but this is getting rather wild. (Didn't see that stated verbatim, and you said you were certain... how? What supports certainty?)

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Originally Posted by ObsidianFire

@Ramesses: Lol. I actually agree with your views on the XIVth Legion. Out of all the Garlean Legions they're probably the best off in terms of being able to figure out what they want to do without worrying about what the rest of Garlemald thinks of them. And yes, I do think they know something of the Ascians. If simply because I can't see the Garleans not having a mountain of surveillance in and around their own bases. The odds of them recording Lahabrea's monologue up until Ultima is cast is pretty good. That goes double if the XIVth Legion knew Gaius had survived... anyway, enough headcanon...

I was more thinking about the XIVth Legion from Varis' point of view. Here's a High Legatus who supposed to have authority over the other Legeti and their legions and clearly, he doesn't. He has to send his best friend in to clean up one of the legions that's in Ilsabard, Garleamald's native continent. And apparently, the reason that legion was corrupt in the first place was because the nations they were occupying weren't rebelling against them. Then a legion who's only ever had one legatus deserts and takes all their expertise with them (including some good tacticians and what is probably one of the best engineering divisions in the Empire ever since Cid left). And then they go somewhere that it's not very convent for the Garlean military to go to what with Garlemald being in the middle of a Civil War at the time. And all that happens after Varis specifically told them not to invade...

Like... Varis has some very good reasons to keep a stranglehold on the military. If he doesn't, I can see them turning on him. Probably because a good portion of the military was against him in the War of Succession anyway, but also because they're probably used to having a lot more leeway with the Garlean government to do whatever they want to. It seems that Solus had a habit of leaving the legions up to their own devices for obvious reasons (more chaos). Varis probably wants to reign that in so he can have more influence over the contry (instead of Solus), but like all things that have to do with Garlemald nowadays, how good an idea that is is rather murky. On the one hand, reversing an Ascian's policies is probably a good idea. On the other hand, that freedom is probably why the better Legions can get away with certain things that contribute more to stability then they do to chaos.

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Ahhhh... thank you for this Obsidian, this was a great post and I can actually see your point in a much clearer light. From Varis' point of view, this makes so much sense and I almost pity the chap. A while back (almost a year ago?), I think Theo rightly mentioned in a speculation thread or something that Varis had a lot on his plate.

He was right...and I chimed in that Varis and the Empire had indeed lost three Legates to the WoL, due to their "independent" thinking (Gaius, Nael and Zenos--yes, back then, most of us thought Zenos was lost for good). And this made me wonder how it would begin to affect his nation, the morale of his troops, the socio-economic fabric of his empire.

It makes sense that he would want to reign things in and get a firmer grip on his empire... and who knows, he might start to distrust his remaining Legates at this point.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

During the Crystal Tower introductory quests, Nero explains that he hasn't returned to the Empire because, in following Gaius against Imperial orders, he and the other survivors of the XIVth are now considered deserters punishable by death.



Regardless of whether or not one personally considers the XIVth deserting a sign of corruption, it's clearly not tolerated by the Imperial government.

Speculation is fine, but this is getting rather wild. (Didn't see that stated verbatim, and you said you were certain... how? What supports certainty?)

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What makes it wild? I said I liked history and was drawing parallels to the similarities I had seen between both entities... what's wrong with that?

Ahhh...right; I also said "certain" in the last line of my post and that didn't go down well with you... I'll admit that was forward of me, not very speculative like, innit?

A major factor to consider is when, exactly, Varis learned of Solus' true nature. Canonically, Lahabrea's demise happened recently in the timeline - and that is apparently what caused Solus to return from his 'rest' and feigned death. Before Varis learned of Solus' true nature then he could very well have had a poor opinion of Gaius' antics. Varis himself doesn't appear to have much interest in invading Eorzea. He could invade Eorzea but he has instead shown immense restraint. I suspect that if he were to speak at length with Gaius then the pair would be on the same page. They've both been unwilling tools of the Ascians and they both care for their homeland and people.

Pureblood Garleans are described as being pragmatic and efficient. Regula was a prime example of that - he buried whatever beef he had with the Warrior of Light for the sake of his men's well being. I suspect there will be a strong overlap in regards to Varis' own line of thinking. His conversation with Alphinaud is intriguing on that note, since he outright compliments the lad by stating that 'You do not hesitate to speak your mind, even though every one may be your last.' Some took it as a threat and little else, though it is the only time we have seen Varis smile. I suspect there was a measure of admiration in his words - despite their different approaches at the time.

Yet by this point, Varis has likely learned that simply resorting to wiping out the Beast Tribes and putting down rebellions only serves to spread the chaos that Solus and Elidibus desperately desire. Hence his restraint - it's fascinating and has a lot of potential should Alphinaud and Varis meet once more.

@Ramesses

How I lament that we're not on the same server. I imagine we could discuss FFXII, Rome and Garlemald at length if we were. I'm...half tempted to poke you in-game sometime and throw my Discord your way, if you're willing. ;)

It is a point we never consider the fact that Varis was promised to us as someone entirely fixed on annexing Eorzea to the point of being opnely and covertly against the meteor project, something that Lolorito reinforced when telling us of the new dreadnought.
Yet his actions speak otherwise.
His first actions with the new weapon was to go elsewhere and he didn't respond that much when for all intents and purpose the alliance declared war on Garlemand per Ilberd's deception.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

A major factor to consider is when, exactly, Varis learned of Solus' true nature. Canonically, Lahabrea's demise happened recently in the timeline - and that is apparently what caused Solus to return from his 'rest' and feigned death. Before Varis learned of Solus' true nature then he could very well have had a poor opinion of Gaius' antics. Varis himself doesn't appear to have much interest in invading Eorzea. He could invade Eorzea but he has instead shown immense restraint. I suspect that if he were to speak at length with Gaius then the pair would be on the same page. They've both been unwilling tools of the Ascians and they both care for their homeland and people.

Pureblood Garleans are described as being pragmatic and efficient. Regula was a prime example of that - he buried whatever beef he had with the Warrior of Light for the sake of his men's well being. I suspect there will be a strong overlap in regards to Varis' own line of thinking. His conversation with Alphinaud is intriguing on that note, since he outright compliments the lad by stating that 'You do not hesitate to speak your mind, even though every one may be your last.' Some took it as a threat and little else, though it is the only time we have seen Varis smile. I suspect there was a measure of admiration in his words - despite their different approaches at the time.

Yet by this point, Varis has likely learned that simply resorting to wiping out the Beast Tribes and putting down rebellions only serves to spread the chaos that Solus and Elidibus desperately desire. Hence his restraint - it's fascinating and has a lot of potential should Alphinaud and Varis meet once more.

@Ramesses

How I lament that we're not on the same server. I imagine we could discuss FFXII, Rome and Garlemald at length if we were. I'm...half tempted to poke you in-game sometime and throw my Discord your way, if you're willing. ;)

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Yep, definitely give me a yell anytime I'm online, Theo. I could carry on ranting for days when it comes to history and Ivalice... as you can see, its always a struggle to self-edit once I get started.

I'm also on Excalibur server with Moose and its great fun to chat with him once in a rare while on FFXI and FFXIV stuff.

By the way, yes... per the earlier part of your post, I can see Alphy's intellect impressing both Varis and Gaius which may be one of the catalysts that will further pave the way for the WoL to understand the mysteries of Garlemald.

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Originally Posted by Ramesses

Well... somehow, he's managed to pull of that youthful look. The chap looks like an 88 year old alright... (the sarcasm, right?)... open below if you've finished the 4.4 patch.

https://i.imgur.com/n5Msryd.jpg

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I seriously don't mean to derail the ongoing conversation with this non-contribution, but by the gods, he's gorgeous. WOW.

Different tastes for different people. I don't find him at all attractive - I feel like he has an unpleasant face, for lack of a better word.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

Different tastes for different people. I don't find him at all attractive - I feel like he has an unpleasant face, for lack of a better word.

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Haha, he's certainly got that eerie, up-to-no-good, devious look about him. I just also find it enchanting, like I'd spontaneously combust if he ever looked me in the eye. It's bad enough the cs closes with his boots stepping on the camera's face. XD

The acting was great now let's hope it's not just a mustache twirling villain

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Originally Posted by Remedi

The acting was great now let's hope it's not just a mustache twirling villain

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*(Stares at the character's previous pictures from once upon a time)*

About that mustache...

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Originally Posted by Jyera

I seriously don't mean to derail the ongoing conversation with this non-contribution, but by the gods, he's gorgeous. WOW.

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No worries Jyera, conversation is still on track, chugging along nicely.

I have to side with Iscah here, I didn't like his face... those eyebrows gave him a sinister disposition. Strangely enough, I find the other Garleans attractive... Eula, Gaius, Lucia, even Zenos... but this chap, no. However, I thoroughly agree, his voice acting was spot on.

As I stated much earlier in this thread, I enjoyed Solus' return to the stage. Flippant villains are my favorite - from BlazBlue's Yuuki Terumi to Fire Emblem Heroes' Loki.

And I am fine with them being outright villains. Not everything needs to be ~morally grey~ or ~nuanced~. He's not a Saturday Morning Cartoon villain, either. Those tend to take themselves seriously; Solus is clearly just playing around through most of his monologue at Varis, even if he speaks truth.

Physically, he's... not what I expected... but the only image we had of Solus beforehand was an old man wearing Golbez-esque pauldrons, so a youthful man with purple and white hair was a surprise.

It was but when you an an immortal body that you can recreate, why keeping the old senile one? Especially since he shouldn't be seen by living being.

As for him not being mustache twirling villains, they tend to be a bore, since he's going to be the main obstacle in the near future him being boring would make the narrative very very veeeeery dreadful to go trough, not to mention very predictable

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Originally Posted by Remedi

It was but when you an an immortal body that you can recreate, why keeping the old senile one? Especially since he shouldn't be seen by living being.

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This very notion is what has thrown several speculations and theories into complete and utter disarray... and is what many of us are seeking clear answers for in 5.0. Speaking of which, this reminds me of a related question I need to ask Moose later on.

In fact we know very little of what Solus is, We don't even know if he is a greater ascian or just a normal ascian.
Would be an interesting twist if he isn't a top dog though

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Originally Posted by Remedi

In fact we know very little of what Solus is, We don't even know if he is a greater ascian or just a normal ascian.
Would be an interesting twist if he isn't a top dog though

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It would, haha, especially since he spends a delightful amount of time in his CS talking smack about the other high-ranking Ascians. XD

I'd say that if Solus isn't a high-ranked Ascian (and I'm pretty sure he is) he's on the fast-track to becoming one. According to him, the reason he hasn't been around until now was because he did exactly what he was supposed to do and has been essentially on vacation ever since then. He and Elidibus are effectively tag-teaming Varis at this point, and he mentions he does respect Eldibus. At the very least, he has the set-up as being more effective at what he does then Lahabrea was. Also, someone has to replace Lahabrea as the high-teir Ascian from the Source and that can't be Elidibus since he's already the Emissary.

The only thing we can be relatively certain of in regards to Solus is that he was an Ascian when founding and setting up the Empire.

Personally, even if he's outright deliberately evil, I don't think he's going to be boring either. In all honesty very little in the story surprises me anymore (the biggest surprise I got in 5.0 was Zenos firing on Specula Imperatoris, and that was pretty well foreshadowed; other than that Grynewaht showing up as a cybernetic monstrosity was the biggest surprise, and that was because I'd skipped the cutscene foreshadowing it for a queue) and I don't expect it to with Yoshi-P's comment that he doesn't want to betray peoples' expectations.

I like flippant villains like Solus precisely because their next move isn't always predictable. That's also why I don't want things to go the Ivalice route - that would be much more boring (predictable) than Solus being a capital E evil villain. (That's not to say I want a war or for people to die.)

Tbh the final boss of SB was a surprise since I expected Shinryu to come out in the Omega story, I knew I would be fighting Zenos, but I had several theories of what could happen at the end.
Unlike HW where you know who is the final boss from halfway trough the end.

However the problem with flippant villains is that they tend to be very hard to write and give a good reasons for their villany, a villain with a weak backstory will feel bland and boring with the resultant reasoning "I do these stuff because I'M EVIL".

Solus came off as, while being prone to theatrics, fully believing in the mission statement of the Ascians as presented by Elidibus. So I suppose that leaves it to be what would cause a young soldier/officer of the at the time republic to come to the thinking of Rejoining as salvation for the natural order of all life.

This game has nobody declare their sole reasons for doing what they do "because I'm evil." That's simply unrealistic and doesn't work outside of Saturday Morning Cartoons.

Solus, despite his flippant personality, appears to be very much committed to the Ascians' cause. The big mystery that remains is "exactly what is their endgame and what do they mean by "return mankind to its rightful state"?" If one considers this, the only real difference between Solus and Elidibus is that the former is flippant and the latter has a tendency toward austerity - and nobody has accused Elidibus of being a "mustache twirling Saturday Morning Cartoon villain."

The Ascians may be evil from our perspective, but we still don't have the whole picture of what drives them, so it's presumptuous to simply dismiss them as evil. The closest thing in-game to evil is Zenos, and even he has motivations more complex than doing evil for evil's sake. (Not much, but even so.)

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Originally Posted by Cybylt

Solus came off as, while being prone to theatrics, fully believing in the mission statement of the Ascians as presented by Elidibus. So I suppose that leaves it to be what would cause a young soldier/officer of the at the time republic to come to the thinking of Rejoining as salvation for the natural order of all life.

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This ties in to one of the main mysteries behind Solus - we know he was an Ascian when founding the Empire, but was he one before that, and if so for how long?

I'd like it to be simple enough as just saying he was always one (and just possessed some Garlean noble to do what he did), but the revelation that people can transcend mortal limitations with or without the Ascians' gift makes it plausible that he transcended somehow and was simply convinced to support the Ascians' goals. Ultimately we don't know when he became an Ascian or if he always was one, so I feel it's too early to say a Garlean officer was swayed to their cause (because he could have always been on the Ascians' side).

I agree with you there, but there's always the risk, especially with the ascians since for now they are not really endearing as villains, since they've not been really a serious threat in their actions, we are told that they spread chaos, but so far we've systematically thwarted their effort.
Only Elidubus is being written as a serious problem and Lahabrea has been written as one in the 2.0 portion of ARR, but otherwise both Nabriales and Igheyorm were rather poor? Not to mention that Igheyorm failed in her world and that is not an in-game lore but a book lore.
So when you consider that most of them have being written rather poorly, with poor backstory and motives, the risk of Solus falling into this category is very high and that's why i'm very cautious

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Originally Posted by Cilia

And I am fine with them being outright villains. Not everything needs to be ~morally grey~ or ~nuanced~.

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In fairness to our Garlean sympathizers, I don't think anyone has ever tried to paint the Ascians (ANY of them) in shades of grey, and Solus is no exception now that we know he is one, and that his previously assumed motivations were all a lie. Every Ascian but Elidibus has made ZERO effort to present as anything other than a cackling supervillain - and even in the case of Elidibus, the closest thing to "sympathy" the players might feel is that he clearly knows things worth knowing, and it might be worthwhile to listen to what he has to say (if he'd actually ever bother to say it).

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Originally Posted by Cilia

The Ascians may be evil from our perspective, but we still don't have the whole picture of what drives them, so it's presumptuous to simply dismiss them as evil. The closest thing in-game to evil is Zenos, and even he has motivations more complex than doing evil for evil's sake. (Not much, but even so.)

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Actually, with the exception of Elidibus, it IS fair to call the Ascians evil. Their underlying motivations, mysterious or not, aren't important. What makes them evil is the fact that they REVEL in the carnage they cause. Each of them we've witnessed clearly LOVES causing death and misery among mortals, and are not the least shy about sharing that fact. If their motivation has a noble underlying goal, it is still possible to sow chaos and reap lives while being contrite or sorrowful about it - but no, not the black-cloak Ascians. They're chewing the scenery and milking the giant cow with every proclamation of doom.

Elidibus - there's no sign that he enjoys what he's taking part in bringing about. It is necessary, and must be done, and the casualties involved are inevitable. Neither does he show much in the way of sympathy for those casualties, but if there was a way to bring about his goals without causing misery, he'd probably consider it, if only because then the opposition against him might wind up being a bit less fierce. He, I'd be willing to concede may not be evil; more along the lines of a well-intentioned extremist.

I concur that there's probably more to Elidibus than what we know. They're certainly risking a bit by playing the long game in terms of fleshing out his character, if this is indeed the case. I also believe that Solus is undeniably evil, but he seems different from the other similarly-ranked Ascians we've already dealt with. I get the feeling he's more dangerous and clever than they were by a good measure. Solus seems to hold Elidibus in high regard for his judgement too, despite being frustrated by his worrisome nature. Despite being evil and a trusted follower of Elidibus, I suspect Solus might also have some agency of his own, and could shake things up.

The main difference between Solus and the previous Ascians we've encountered is that he does have personal connections to other characters, namely Varis and quite possibly the real Zenos as well. It could prove interesting how these relationships will play out as the story progresses. I'm not expecting Solus to actually really care about what happens to his grandson, and I don't expect he's had much remorse over Zenos' apparent death either. Still, I suppose given his theatrical nature he could be hiding a vague semblance of familial affection underneath the mummer's mask of cold flippancy, however unlikely. What implications such emotions would have is also highly speculative, though I can almost say with absolute certainty that it won't lead to any kind of redemption. At best, he'd be a "pitied but not forgiven" antagonist, perhaps not too much unlike Varis as well. Of course, he could just end up being a "generic, cackling villain" like the others as well. I, for one, would enjoy being pleasantly surprised if they actually try to work more to flesh Solus out and make his development at least a bit less cliched.

Well... Solus presumably spent at least 60 year as the Emperor of the Garlemald. And that's even taking into account that he possessed someone that long. I can not see any of the other Ascians we've met (barring Elidibus) sticking that long with a plan that complicated and having no one suspect a thing. That's really impressive. Solus isn't stupid and he isn't out for short-term goals. And that makes him really dangerous.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

In fairness to our Garlean sympathizers, I don't think anyone has ever tried to paint the Ascians (ANY of them) in shades of grey, and Solus is no exception now that we know he is one, and that his previously assumed motivations were all a lie. Every Ascian but Elidibus has made ZERO effort to present as anything other than a cackling supervillain - and even in the case of Elidibus, the closest thing to "sympathy" the players might feel is that he clearly knows things worth knowing, and it might be worthwhile to listen to what he has to say (if he'd actually ever bother to say it).

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The point I was getting at was that Solus doesn't need to be "morally grey" or "nuanced" to be a good antagonist. A straight, capital E evil villain can still be effective, dangerous, and entertaining - just because they don't have some deeply complex reason for doing what they do, something that justifies their actions from a certain point of view, or some sympathetic element to them doesn't mean they can't be enjoyable and effective villains. (Solus, despite his flippant persona, is responsible for a Calamity and the Garlean Empire's incessant antagonism. Do not forget that.)

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

Actually, with the exception of Elidibus, it IS fair to call the Ascians evil. Their underlying motivations, mysterious or not, aren't important. What makes them evil is the fact that they REVEL in the carnage they cause. Each of them we've witnessed clearly LOVES causing death and misery among mortals, and are not the least shy about sharing that fact. If their motivation has a noble underlying goal, it is still possible to sow chaos and reap lives while being contrite or sorrowful about it - but no, not the black-cloak Ascians. They're chewing the scenery and milking the giant cow with every proclamation of doom.

Elidibus - there's no sign that he enjoys what he's taking part in bringing about. It is necessary, and must be done, and the casualties involved are inevitable. Neither does he show much in the way of sympathy for those casualties, but if there was a way to bring about his goals without causing misery, he'd probably consider it, if only because then the opposition against him might wind up being a bit less fierce. He, I'd be willing to concede may not be evil; more along the lines of a well-intentioned extremist.

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Most of the Imperials we've met may not revel in what they do (though some do), but they clearly don't have objections to what's asked of them - or if they do, their superiors are apathetic (at best) to their concerns and they carry out their orders anyway. Considering the full scope of what their country does, does that make them evil?

The black-cloak Ascians, I agree, are evil from our perspective - but without knowing their full motives, declaring them evil for evil's sake is somewhat presumptuous. (Except Lahabrea, whose slip of the tongue in 2.55's stinger made it pretty clear he was doing what he was simply because he wanted to.) It depends on how you define evil, really.

Elidibus is the closest the Ascians have to a well-intentioned extremist, but one needs to remember that he has the same goal as the black-cloaked Ascians - even if he goes about it a different way and has a different demeanor, his ends are the exact same. What makes the black-cloaked Ascians evil, then - the means, or the end?

Depends, if you were to ask a Gaul he would say that Romans were the devil since Caesar pretty much wiped them out, however ironically thanks to that Gauls were allowed to live in Rome thanks to the Romans citizenship and that act actually allowed eventually the formation of France.

With the understanding that the Question of Good and Evil is not a simple one, and that this is my own personal opinion...

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Originally Posted by Cilia

What makes the black-cloaked Ascians evil, then - the means, or the end?

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Neither. Both are irrelevant when talking about whether an individual is good or evil. Murder is an evil action, but that doesn't mean that a soldier who kills in battle is an evil person. Good people do bad things at times for reasons they think are justified. A sign of a good person is that they regret doing so - especially if they learn later that the action was NOT justified.

What makes a person good or evil is not as simple as ends and means. It has to do with their attitude. Unnecessary cruelty while performing a task is a pretty good indicator of evil. Self-indulgence knowingly at the expense of others is another. Delight in the suffering of others is a sign, as well. Speaking broadly, it comes down to selfishness versus selflessness. If you're performing an evil act for your own betterment or indulgence, you are probably evil. If you're performing an evil act for the benefit of others, you may not be. There may be times when someone's performing an action for multiple reasons, some selfish, some selfless.

As for your example with the Imperials, most of the rank-and-file don't wear their hearts on their sleeves the way the black-cloak Ascians do, so it's tough to tell on a case-by-case basis whether they're good or evil people. The ones who smile while bayoneting babies? Probably evil. The ones fighting for the betterment of their nation? Probably not evil, but possibly misguided. Propaganda can play a big part in whether a soldier's justification in following orders is sound; if a soldier is convinced that the only way to stop the barbarian hordes from invading is to subjugate and civilize them, their aggression becomes a defensive, protective action. Why should they object to that? (Of course the ones who go the extra mile and indulge in criminal actions such as robbery or rape clearly are more interested in self-indulgence than civilizing the savages.)

For the ones who do object, but obey anyway, there's also the penalty for disobedience to consider; in the case of the Garleans, it's implied that the military isn't kind to those who disobey orders. When someone is coerced into performing an evil act out of fear for their own well being or the well being of loved ones, it is not that individual who is evil, but the one coercing them. Even were this coercion not the case, though, there's faith that the ones have a big-picture view that the rank-and-file don't have. "This action might SEEM questionable, but I guess it must be necessary for reasons I don't fully understand, but the higher-ups do." (Which is, of course, true in the case of the Garleans, but unfortunately some of the higher-ups are literal monsters.)

In fact, this is is a big part of the reason why the Eorzean Alliance is confident that revealing Zenos as an Ascian will destabilize Garlemand. They're confident that plenty in the Empire had been taking it on faith that their superiors knew what's best for them and that Garlemand's actions were for the betterment of the nation. Knowing that Zenos is an inhuman entity with questionable ties to Garlemand will make call into question that faith, and enhance the regret the good people feel at the "necessary" wrongs their nation has committed.

You made me realize something. Perhaps Elidubus actually foresaw this too and choose Zenos as a host as a failsafe too. If we expose Zenos as an ascian, we also weaken Varis' hold on the empire, and the ascians can then allow someone more in line with them on the throne.

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Originally Posted by Remedi

Tbh the final boss of SB was a surprise since I expected Shinryu to come out in the Omega story, I knew I would be fighting Zenos, but I had several theories of what could happen at the end.
Unlike HW where you know who is the final boss from halfway trough the end.

However the problem with flippant villains is that they tend to be very hard to write and give a good reasons for their villany, a villain with a weak backstory will feel bland and boring with the resultant reasoning "I do these stuff because I'M EVIL".

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Like Nidhogg. Oh boy. I absolutely hated that guy. Frankly I hated the whole dragonsong war. The leveling story was better in Heavenward, but I much prefer the SB patch stories.
Also I'm glad we moved back to Solus. I got tired just by reading the debate on Garlean morality and Regula. It's like arguing with Potterheads about Draco Malfoy. If the best thing that can be said of you is that sometimes you help the good guys in your quest to conquer continents and cause mass genocide....you are not a good person. End of story.

As for Solus' reason to be an Ascian? Well....I doubt this will be the last Ascian expansion. And I'd think any huge revelations that would make us rethink what we know about Hydaelin and Zodiark would have to wait untill we are ready to deal with all the overlords. I think we will have to settle for a villain who is evil just because. At least he is entertaining to watch. And has a cool theme.