Caster Changes in 4.2 (RIP Casters)

1 minute longer*

Not gonna lie, I'm happy about the SMN nerfs. Ruin III didn't need it, sure, but it doesn't hurt. However, they definitely needed the nerf on Tri-Bind & Painflare. I've pulled 10k sustained dps on massive pulls because of that and back to back cooldown usage. Wyrm Wave's burst warrants the nerf, but I'd honestly rather see them fix how it functions instead. Don't allow it to proc on oGCDs, and adjust the damage accordingly. That's it.

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Originally Posted by RainDurell

My point was that BLM brings incredible personal dps, which makes up for it's lack of utility. If you'd like to argue how it's untrue and that overall raid dps for picking anything else is higher, the difference is so small it's irrelevant. People are treating meta picks as if they make you do 50% more damage. The difference isn't drastic and what's more important is being GOOD at your job.

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You are wrong and the statistics from the Raid DPS app prove that the personal DPS for BLM does not make up for its lack of utility. Go check out Blackcat's raiddps app.

I'd say that the lack of sinergy with other jobs is hurting more, SAM can at least say that is sinergized with the ever present physical dmg buffs, which honestly were something I worried for when I saw SB job skills, since they neutered magical burst while still bringing in new physical buffs

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Originally Posted by HaroldSaxon

You are wrong and the statistics from the Raid DPS app prove that the personal DPS for BLM does not make up for its lack of utility. Go check out Blackcat's raiddps app.

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Never did and it looks like it never will, just give BLM offensive utilitty already, selfish is never gonna work.

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Originally Posted by Lina_Slayer

Never did and it looks like it never will, just give BLM offensive utilitty already, selfish is never gonna work.

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Of course it can work. It just needs SE to actually playtest the game, not fumble through stuff in godmode.

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Originally Posted by HaroldSaxon

Of course it can work. It just needs SE to actually playtest the game, not fumble through stuff in godmode.

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If we ever do enough damage to be meta the community will come saying how it takes no coordination and how healthy the old meta was, just give us a random button that increases everyone's damage because it seems like it's the pinnacle of skill in this game.

I did small comparison from raid dps calculator o6s because o5s you can cheese from adds too much. It does not looks like casters are that bad spot, but it is hard compare if gear is not equal level. This is rank 1 from every job o6s.
https://i.imgur.com/VS36H7T.jpg

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Originally Posted by Sunako

I did small comparison from raid dps calculator o6s because o5s you can cheese from adds too much. It does not looks like casters are that bad spot, but it is hard compare if gear is not equal level. This is rank 1 from every job o6s.
https://i.imgur.com/VS36H7T.jpg

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Its way too early to be saying that because:

a) You don't know what gear each of the classes have (nowhere near close to BiS and there's a chance one of those weapons is BiS).
b) Strategies haven't been optimized yet
c) People haven't been experimenting with comps yet.

Furthermore, taking the top job from each role is completely inaccurate - you absolutely need to take into account killtime. Speedruns are a better way of measuring performance. Furthermore, Blackcat's tool does also still bias the person that applies the damage (rather than the buff user) in situations where buffs are stacked.

My Lord, guys just look at FFLogs and tell me BLM doesn't have one of the highest personal DPS. That's the entire reason why they lack utility.

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Originally Posted by RainDurell

My Lord, guys just look at FFLogs and tell me BLM doesn't have one of the highest personal DPS. That's the entire reason why they lack utility.

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If BLM does 2000 more personal DPS than NIN, but NIN brings 3000 group DPS through utility, NIN is the stronger choice because it has better over all DPS.

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Originally Posted by RainDurell

My Lord, guys just look at FFLogs and tell me BLM doesn't have one of the highest personal DPS. That's the entire reason why they lack utility.

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1) Week 2 logs are not an indicator on overall performance. Its too small a sample size with too varied an amount of gear
2) The High personal DPS does not make up for the lack of Utility - Check the Raid DPS app.

People referring to FFlogs all the time...
and you are so completely wrong in that the amount of damage blm brings actually does NOT make up for it's lack of utility

Vanille, if you want to argue, don't invent Random numbers.

Harold, not only will BLM remain top dps in all those fights, the difference isn't drastic, and you're basing it all on mathematical situations that never exist. People don't always align cds, some players are better than others, some fights favor casters like blm more. I really don't get the argument of this "in a vacuum where there are no factors except maths".

Maero, like I said before, there are so many factors to the performance of the group, when you use something like a raid calculator, it's irrelevant. Point is, the difference isn't drastic, and all jobs are viable to play at a savage level with little differences in performance

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Originally Posted by RainDurell

Point is, the difference isn't drastic, and all jobs are viable to play at a savage level with little differences in performance

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When the difference in damage isn't drastic, the tools other jobs bring are all the more glaring and important.

No one says Black Mage can't clear content, but there's literally zero reason to bring one. just a quick glance at the data suggests Summoner is still the better choice in every scenario.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

When the difference in damage isn't drastic, the tools other jobs bring are all the more glaring and important.

No one says Black Mage can't clear content, but there's literally zero reason to bring one. just a quick glance at the data suggests Summoner is still the better choice in every scenario.

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Your first sentence made no sense. Also, high personal dps is a reason.

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Originally Posted by RainDurell

Vanille, if you want to argue, don't invent Random numbers.

Harold, not only will BLM remain top dps in all those fights, the difference isn't drastic, and you're basing it all on mathematical situations that never exist. People don't always align cds, some players are better than others, some fights favor casters like blm more. I really don't get the argument of this "in a vacuum where there are no factors except maths".

Maero, like I said before, there are so many factors to the performance of the group, when you use something like a raid calculator, it's irrelevant. Point is, the difference isn't drastic, and all jobs are viable to play at a savage level with little differences in performance

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1) Personal DPS does not equal raid contributed DPS.

2) Physical Damage dealers will be getting +1 Weapon Damage when they get to BiS next week

3) Week 1 and 2 statistics are absolutely not a good set of data for class performance because of the gear variation between players as well as non optimized strategies.

4) A Raid DPS analyzer and a DPS calculator is more reliable than anything you have ever posted. Stop spouting nonsense.

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Originally Posted by RainDurell

Your first sentence made no sense. Also, high personal dps is a reason.

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Makes plenty.

Why bring the 6300 when the 5700 brings any variation of: Raise, party damage buffs that easily close the gap, mitigation assists, health restores, raid wide MP regeneration, more mobility?

I don't think it's working here

You realize you\\'re applying dps calculations and maths in a vacuum situation to actual raiding gameplay?
I\\'ve said this so many times but maths and calculators ignore so many factors involved in the performance, because it\\'s a CALCULATOR. Personal dps is a part of group dps if you haven\\'t realized btw. And I\\'m willing to bet BLM will still be at the top of DPS even by next month.

Kabooa, don\\'t ignore how BLM technically does have utility. Also "more mobility" is a part of personal dps, in which blm STILL wins.

Again, don\\'t apply math to raiding, because it\\'s not how it works in reality, and with math there will ALWAYS be a top 4 dps, if one gets buffed, he will become the new top dps. Do you see the flaw of basing everything on math? There will never be a situation where all jobs are balanced if you try and calculate things, because that\\'s the nature of math.

Listen to what YoshiP said this liveletter, stop acting like raid utility is all that matters, the personal performance of someone can also get you to victory.

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Originally Posted by RainDurell

You realize you\\'re applying dps calculations and maths in a vacuum situation to actual raiding gameplay?

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Blackcat's tool uses logs from actual raiding gameplay. Try again.

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Originally Posted by RainDurell

Listen to what YoshiP said this liveletter, stop acting like raid utility is all that matters, the personal performance of someone can also get you to victory.

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Yoshi-P is wrong. Stop taking everything he says at face value and actually look at the facts.

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Originally Posted by RainDurell

Kabooa, don\\'t ignore how BLM technically does have utility. Also "more mobility" is a part of personal dps, in which blm STILL wins.

Again, don\\'t apply math to raiding, because it\\'s not how it works in reality, and with math there will ALWAYS be a top 4 dps, if one gets buffed, he will become the new top dps. Do you see the flaw of basing everything on math? There will never be a situation where all jobs are balanced if you try and calculate things, because that\\'s the nature of math.

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Red Mage and Summoner have access to the same utility and bring more. Summoner quite literally loses almost nothing for it, and Red Mage is the superior choice for progression. You'd know that, I'm sure.

And this doesn't help that the "Caster" utility is in almost all ways inferior to Ranged Utility.

@Rain Yoshida is right when he says that you can clear the content with wathever job you like, he's wrong when there are no clear advantages or disadvantages, the simple raise from SMN and RDM is a clear advantage over taking BLM in prog ( too much imho as I stated in the raise thread).

@Remedi and @Kabooa I'm not saying RDM/SMN dont have extra utility over BLM, I'm saying that you should stop overvaluing things.
A battle res is an amazing tool to have, but it doesnt render BLM useless.
BLM bring considerably higher DPS than both RDM/SMN, and that's the entire identity of the job.
Bringing a BLM over RDM/SMN wont break the party, it just means you wont have battle res, and instead you get higher dps.

@Harold
Harold you literally can't base raid performance using math, I already explained that. Player skill level is a much bigger factor that which job you choose to bring to the group.
Besides, I thought you said fflogs is hardly a way to measure performance?
I'm not blindly listening to YoshiP and being like "yo he is right", I just actually agree with him.
... Also quit with the passive-aggressive crap lmao "try again", it's not really a thing you'd say in an argument about a videogame.

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Originally Posted by RainDurell

Bringing a BLM over RDM/SMN wont break the party, it just means you wont have battle res, and instead you get higher dps.

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Black mage brings considerably higher dps than Red Mage. on Summoner, they about par once your factor in Summoner's Devotion.

Red Mages in heavy PDPS set ups are generally only about 5-7% behind Black Mages when taking into account total damage contribution.

Generally speaking, in terms of total Raid DPS, this means that if the raid with black Mage is at 100%, then the raid with Red Mage is around 98% and the raid with Summoner at 99-100%

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Originally Posted by RainDurell

@Harold
Harold you literally can't base raid performance using math, I already explained that. Player skill level is a much bigger factor that which job you choose to bring to the group.
Besides, I thought you said fflogs is hardly a way to measure performance?
I'm not blindly listening to YoshiP and being like "yo he is right", I just actually agree with him.
... Also quit with the passive-aggressive crap lmao "try again", it's not really a thing you'd say in an argument about a videogame.

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Until you are actually going to read my posts and discuss things with an open mind, there's absolutely no reason to respond to you further. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about, are unable to accept evidence that counters your points and contradict yourself constantly.

"rip casters" is a pretty stupid thread title, just because phydps comps clear a raid 8-9 seconds faster doesn't mean casters are weak.

Blm and smn dps is very similar while rdm has less dps but better sustain/grp survivability.

Again, get this utility or no invite mentality out of your heads, those are for cutting edge raiders doing savage/ultimate where an extra 30 dps can mean a wipe or a kill, a mere 3% of the playerbase participate in...

I think you need to lay off from your twitch gods telling you how and what to play.

Or to stop taking mmos like an irl job, where you have to optimize everything, crushing everything in your path to that end, without caring of whose tossed aside feels like in your search of always more less time wasted, more profits and more first performance place. I see enough of this s**t at work to want to see it as well in my games.

You know something is not right when you stop bringing your rdm's "utility" in raids because you feel that regular healers have a bad habit to let you do all the rez's work when you are here, so that they can concentrate on their awesome dps while you are thrown in a state of fear to be labbelled as "grey" after getting out of mana because of all the ressurections. Or when you are asking yourself "should i really use this buff that make my team mates dps goes up but not mine ? My dps will look better compared to theirs in the raid's fflogs front page if i don't use it that often".

Harold if I wasn't listening to you then I'd have nothing to reply to. Speaking of which you haven't even replied to mine, all you did was try to discredit me for not listening.

Kabooa I think you're putting way to much value in thinking that devotion is a strong enough buff to close the dps gap.

I agree with Kleeya and Adventica, all this meta crap doesn't apply to any of us, a 2% dps increase isn't a reason to recruit a SMN over a BLM, leaving aside the fact that PLAYER SKILL LEVEL IS WAY MORE IMPORTANT. The differences in dps are miniscule so stop with this meta nonsense.

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Originally Posted by RainDurell

I agree with Kleeya and Adventica, all this meta crap doesn't apply to any of us, a 2% dps increase isn't a reason to recruit a SMN over a BLM, leaving aside the fact that PLAYER SKILL LEVEL IS WAY MORE IMPORTANT. The differences in dps are miniscule so stop with this meta nonsense.

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Glad to know that the difference in damage for the wide variety of tools brought otherwise is minuscule.

That you don't see a problem with that is telling.

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Originally Posted by RainDurell

Vanille, if you want to argue, don't invent Random numbers.

Harold, not only will BLM remain top dps in all those fights, the difference isn't drastic, and you're basing it all on mathematical situations that never exist. People don't always align cds, some players are better than others, some fights favor casters like blm more. I really don't get the argument of this "in a vacuum where there are no factors except maths".

Maero, like I said before, there are so many factors to the performance of the group, when you use something like a raid calculator, it's irrelevant. Point is, the difference isn't drastic, and all jobs are viable to play at a savage level with little differences in performance

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It was a hypothetical? You know, a "for example"? You do know those exist right? And I wasn't arguing, I was pointing out why utility is favoured over non-utility.

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Originally Posted by VanilleFang

If BLM does 2000 more personal DPS than NIN, but NIN brings 3000 group DPS through utility, NIN is the stronger choice because it has better over all DPS.

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Trick Attack, in a midcore static on O6S contributes to like 450 DPS. Shadewalker's value is decreased so much with the introduction of Diversion then it's only semi useful on pull and that's it. Stop talking out of your butt. BLM and Nin damage close overall.

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Originally Posted by VanilleFang

It was a hypothetical? You know, a "for example"? You do know those exist right? And I wasn't arguing, I was pointing out why utility is favoured over non-utility.

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Your example is based on the numbers being close to true, because if it weren't then your example makes no sense.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Glad to know that the difference in damage for the wide variety of tools brought otherwise is minuscule.

That you don't see a problem with that is telling.

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In reality, the difference is miniscule and depends far more on independent skill.
Trying to apply math on raids where mechanics, uptime, deaths, adds and phases are involved is plain stupid.

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Originally Posted by RainDurell

In reality, the difference is miniscule and depends far more on independent skill.
Trying to apply math on raids where mechanics, uptime, deaths, adds and phases are involved is plain stupid.

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I don't understand the viewpoint that we're just randomly picking up rando's who can't do the job. It cuts both ways.

Every discussion we have on this forum we assume (Or rather, -I- assume -we- assume) the player is competent and in the same tier of skill on their job when compared to another job. A great player makes any job played by a lesser player seem inferior. Using this as the crux of an argument is flawed for that reason. We have to assume, in this argument, that both players are not only equivalently geared, but equivalently capable. This is why we compare the same percentile of players.

You don't compare an i310 Samurai to an i340 Monk and you don't compare Joe Schoemancer to Chantotto.

And as it stands, the data is finicky right now because gear isn't evened out and there are too few plot points across all jobs, but especially Black Mage. This is why we consider the data, but are sort of in a wait and see moment. We can make inferences, but we need more data. We can make predictions, but we need more data. Given the data we are pulling from, we can pretty much assume "Player skill" isn't a factor, because all these early clear guys are probably upper echelon. But again: We need more data.

But so far the inferences match the predictions the moment we saw patch notes. Same story. 4% higher. No real reason to bring them over a Summoner or a Machinist, but 32k Fire4 DCrits are pretty sweet.

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Originally Posted by Starflake

Trick Attack, in a midcore static on O6S contributes to like 450 DPS. Shadewalker's value is decreased so much with the introduction of Diversion then it's only semi useful on pull and that's it. Stop talking out of your butt. BLM and Nin damage close overall.

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Uh...????

I wasn't using actual numbers. I was saying if 1 job does high personal damage but the raid DPS of another job is higher than the job with more raid DPS would being more valued. Don't see how I was talking out my butt?

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Originally Posted by RainDurell

Your example is based on the numbers being close to true, because if it weren't then your example makes no sense.

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What the hell are you talking about? All I was saying is that personal DPS has to be much higher to make it more valued than something with high raid DPS. You claimed that BLM has a lack of utility because of their high personal DPS... all I was saying is that if that personal DPS doesn't match another job's raid DPS than it's not balanced.

It's like you guys have never heard of using examples to explain something. Should I have seriously started my statement explaining that my post was simply a "for instance"?

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Originally Posted by VanilleFang

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Your example is bad, that isn\\'t hard to understand.
In any case, let\\'s assume for a second that their personal dps is higher than the raid dps gained by utility. Would you go and say that utility needs a buff? You do understand that as long as you use math, there will never be a balance, because true job balance had nothing to do with math, but rather how viable a job is in clearing the content. Saying there\\'s no reason to take BLM because taking a SMN will give 2% more dps is stupid on so many levels, it\\'s a calculation that isn\\'t close to reality due to the nature of fights and their mechanics, and even if it were true the % difference is abysmally small to the point that taking a BLM is just as fine as taking a SMN.

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Originally Posted by RainDurell

Your example is bad, that isn\\'t hard to understand.
In any case, let\\'s assume for a second that their personal dps is higher than the raid dps gained by utility. Would you go and say that utility needs a buff? You do understand that as long as you use math, there will never be a balance, because true job balance had nothing to do with math, but rather how viable a job is in clearing the content. Saying there\\'s no reason to take BLM because taking a SMN will give 2% more dps is stupid on so many levels, it\\'s a calculation that isn\\'t close to reality due to the nature of fights and their mechanics, and even if it were true the % difference is abysmally small to the point that taking a BLM is just as fine as taking a SMN.

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2% wouldn't be a problem. The problem is, on top of those 2% there is a rez and mobility that makes mechanics less punishing.
Also, the hell is wrong with that example? If they posted same thing, just without using any numbers, it'd be fine. Jumping on random numbers that were clearly meant to make it easier to imagine (coz they are way too far from realistic) is pointless.

The example was bad because the numbers made no sense.

I argued that the mathematical 2% isn't how it ends up in reality, if that's what you missed.

Also the only thing lack of mobility affects is personal dps, which BLM still wins because good BLM players know how to deal with moving around for mechanics instead of complaining about their lack of mobility