Did you know not performing as you think another player should in a group

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

I heard the OT scylla thing before so I'm really just asking: how do you know AFK was the reason they kicked you?

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Because they told me...on the chat...when I joined back. And even there, the GM only told me "Different playstyles, dude" (Well, not that words precisely :p)

Ah so this was before they set it so you can't join back. So your two anecdotes are particularly dated in addition to being anecdotes.

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Originally Posted by LittleSparrow

I think votekicking for having a different playstyle really shouldn't be allowed, but oh well.

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Having the "Different Playstyles" reasoning is there because SE cannot enforce a particular playstyle on the community. In order to not allow for such kicks, they would have to enforce a specific playstyle, which is not something that can be done because the playerbase is so vast, and comprised of so many people that are all different in some way or another. Hence why the "Differing Playstyles" is a reason for a valid kick. SE knows they can't expect everyone in this game to play exactly the same, so if a party agrees to kick a player for not meeting the expectation of the group, they can do so.

Personally I don't see people kicked very often. I use duty finder for almost all the dungeons I need. The few times, I saw someone kicked is because they disconnected and didn't return. There was a time when a ninja was kicked for pulling mobs after the tank asked him to stop but that's pretty much all I've seen as vote kicks go. Again though, maybe I'm just lucky.

In 4mans I really don't think people should get kicked for performing suboptimally as long as the run is smooth enough. In savage raid content sometimes you have to kick the straggler, nothing you can do about it.

Hey just because it considered a valid reason by SE that does not make it a nice or polite thing to do. Many consider it rude to kick people out of groups because they are not performing efficiently. Its a game. Especially on a DPS. You make that person wait in a 20 minute queue to redo the dungeon. You make them feel bad. I have seen some not even want to do dungeons at all because of things like this happening to them. Not everybody is a perfect player. Even after playing the game for a long time. They are not. Old people don't think as fast. They don't react as fast. I know many people don't seem to care about the people on the other side of the screen.. but to some believe me it is rude. And I have seen those people reply in this thread and it gives me hope for the game.

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Originally Posted by ArcanoJones

Hey just because it considered a valid reason by SE that does not make it a nice or polite thing to do.

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It could also be argued that playing suboptimally or abhorrently is rude as well. You can flip that coin any way you want.

And it's not just recently this has been a thing. In FFXI when we ran dyna or any alliance based content we kept black mages in all parties so we could D2 anyone not performing or listening to directions, ninja looting, randomly pulling or afking and that was back in 2005. So expecting someone to perform is not a new thing in mmos. As we were far from the only ls who did so.

It's true its a game, but your enjoyment does not trump anyone else's. If you want to purposely play your class poorly you cannot blame others for kicking you. If you purposely do not tell a group that you have some sort of disability and that is why you are slower than you should be, you cannot blame them for kicking you. In any aspect of life you will be expected to perform at least well and depending on what you do (in game terms a static), exceptionally. If you want to be a blizzard mage, that's great for you, but you cannot blame others for booting you just because "its your sub so you play your way". That's just childish.

Micah...Why exactly would that be rude..That is not valid at all. If you are trying there is absolutely nothing rude about it. If your not intentionally trying to harrass or troll somebody there is nothing rude about it. Nobody is purposely trying to play there class badly. Not everybody is a perfect player. Would you like to explain why that is rude if your not intentionaly trying to effect another person. I am interested on why some people say that.

And like I say..People who think your way are not very nice people. Sorry but thats how I feel. its a selfish attitude. Its a if you don't play the game my way your out of here attitude. Some will bash me for saying it. But I know others feel the same.

The only reason I am going to kick somebody is if they are harrasing another player..bullying them or being mean to them ..or if they have left the game obviously and are AFK for a long time. That is the only time you will get a kick vote from me. Advancing in the game and doing things effficiently is not more important than being courteous and polite and treating others as you would like them to treat you.

If you are just a thunder or blizzard mage, you are not trying to play well, you are intentionally playing poorly.
If you are not playing optimally when you can, if you know you are not doing your job but don't care enough to try, you are intentionally playing poorly.
If you do not take the time to learn your job or even reading the tool tips on your icons you are intentionally playing poorly.
If you are intentionally playing your job a certain way because that is your preference when you know there are better ways to go about things, you are intentionally playing poorly.
Especially at level 70. If you still do not know your basic rotations you have put 0 effort into learning anything and therefore you are intentionally playing poorly. Ignorance by choice.

If everyone in a group took a few moments to read what to do and try to do it, that is fine. If you refuse to use the actions given, aoe in a group pull for instance, which was brought up earlier. You are intentionally playing poorly and that is rude, that is trolling. You can play your way if you want, but I have the option to say, not with me, and boot you. And that is not rude that is my choice as yours is your own.

Funny you think I am not nice due to the way I think, because I think people who play your way, and not take people who actually put effort into learning how to play into consideration and expect to be carried, are not very nice people.

None of that is intentional. Its called the way they play. You have not got the slightest idea what other people know about the game. You can only speak for yourself. Thats just an excuse your making But you sure take a lot for granted on what everybody knows.

Personally I don't expect anything from anybody. I hope they enjoy the game. I am not going to discuss it with you any longer though. Its not a social thing for you obviously. SO nevermind.

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Originally Posted by ArcanoJones

None of that is intentional. Its called the way they play.

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Originally Posted by MicahZerrshia

If you are just a thunder or blizzard mage, you are not trying to play well, you are intentionally playing poorly.
If you are not playing optimally when you can, if you know you are not doing your job but don't care enough to try, you are intentionally playing poorly.
If you do not take the time to learn your job or even reading the tool tips on your icons you are intentionally playing poorly.
If you are intentionally playing your job a certain way because that is your preference when you know there are better ways to go about things, you are intentionally playing poorly.
Especially at level 70. If you still do not know your basic rotations you have put 0 effort into learning anything and therefore you are intentionally playing poorly. Ignorance by choice.

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Funny, this all sound pretty intentional to me.

But if you want to make excuses to be carried I guess they are hard to argue against and best to just ignore instead of making a valid argument outside of "meany"

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Originally Posted by ArcanoJones

Micah...Why exactly would that be rude..That is not valid at all. If you are trying there is absolutely nothing rude about it. If your not intentionally trying to harrass or troll somebody there is nothing rude about it. Nobody is purposely trying to play there class badly. Not everybody is a perfect player. Would you like to explain why that is rude if your not intentionaly trying to effect another person. I am interested on why some people say that.

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The more you play this game, the more you will realize that there are players just like that in this game: that intentionally play their job suboptimally, and don't care if it causes the run to last longer, or places undue burden or strain on the party. Because "you don't pay my sub, and it's my sub so I'll play the way I want to play."

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And like I say..People who think your way are not very nice people. Sorry but thats how I feel. its a selfish attitude. Its a if you don't play the game my way your out of here attitude. Some will bash me for saying it. But I know others feel the same.

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Yet, in this thread, you are basically advocating for people to play this game the way you think it should be played: slow, easy dungeon runs with lots of talking and chatting. And while that may be ideal for some, it is not what everyone in this community wants. Some people are fine with just "Hello" and "Thank you" after a fast, efficient run. Brief interactions; short, to-the-point explanations of boss mechanics for anyone who asks for them; those are all things that are done in runs and acceptable in this community. Playing a job inefficiently and being a burden to your party is not. That is what I would consider selfish behavior.

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The only reason I am going to kick somebody is if they are harrasing another player..bullying them or being mean to them ..or if they have left the game obviously and are AFK for a long time. That is the only time you will get a kick vote from me. Advancing in the game and doing things effficiently is not more important than being courteous and polite and treating others as you would like them to treat you.

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I would consider people unwilling to play their jobs to the most basic expectations and thereby hindering progression or making a run last far longer than it should rude, and not treating their fellow party members with any ounce of respect or consideration. Your time and your enjoyment are not more important than the time and enjoyment of your party.

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Originally Posted by ArcanoJones

None of that is intentional. Its called the way they play. You have not got the slightest idea what other people know about the game. You can only speak for yourself. Thats just an excuse your making But you sure take a lot for granted on what everybody knows.

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Everything Micah pointed out is intentional play. It is highly unlikely that you would ever meet, for example, a BLM that actually though spamming Blizzard was an optimal rotation. The thaumaturge questline explains to you the balance of Astral and Umbral with regards to your rotation, and how important it is to rotate between the two.

Likewise, very obviously not bothering to read your own tooltips is just poor practice and poor play.

Barring all of this, why one would willingly choose to play poorly boggles my mind, and they are not someone I would ever want to be grouped with. I don't expect 95th percentile FFLogs parses out of my party members for any sort of content (this is including Savage, since a lot of 90th percentile and above parses are catered and padded), but I do expect all of them to have the most basic understanding of their job, and to give content at least some shred of effort.

We're going around in circles with him.
I say let him make a PF and let him allow people to
play Thunder/Ice Mage. Stone/Wind Mage or whatever. Do it, and see how much
of a boring crawl it is not utilizing your job to the fullest potential because one person wants
to be one of the above. Don't hinder the rest of us for it.
Please don't come into DF pretending to be silly made up jobs.

I said it earlier in this topic - This is NOT the game that has a choose your path traits.
Nothing to do with "Players aren't perfect"
You're free to do as you wish in this game, but doing that crap in DF will net you a kick.
A lot of people are on a time budget and I don't have time for people being silly like that.
I'm sorry I don't though.

And no those things are not intentional in most cases. You yourself said some players do it intentionaly . Then you contradict yourself by saying its always intentional. And the fact of the matter is many people disagree with everything you said...myself included. You place the game in front of the people on the other side of the screen. I will continue to be polite and courteous to those people and if a dungeon run doesn't go so great. Oh well I don't really care. Its a game . Not the end of the world. I'll go back and try it again.

Fact is Jybril I am not talking about that specific example..And I play my job just fine. Just because I don't believe in kicking people out of groups for anything but harrasment or AFK does not mean I don't know how to play the game.

If a player doesnt want to improve and spam freeze after flare all the time, then yes they play it the way they want. Their intention is to play bad. There is a difference people wanting to improve over not wanting. If you dont wanna improve you play with like minded people.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Because they told me...on the chat...when I joined back. And even there, the GM only told me "Different playstyles, dude" (Well, not that words precisely :p)

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Makes me glad they got rid of the ability for people to rejoin like that.

Jybil don't you know that the duty finder is there so that NEW players can get groups to go through the MSQ dungeons. But you specifically said not to come into the DF doing that or you will get kicked.

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Originally Posted by ArcanoJones

And no those things are not intentional in most cases. You yourself said some players do it intentionaly . Then you contradict yourself by saying its always intentional. And the fact of the matter is many people disagree with everything you said...myself included. You place the game in front of the people on the other side of the screen. I will continue to be polite and courteous to those people and if a dungeon run doesn't go so great. Oh well I don't really care. Its a game . Not the end of the world. I'll go back and try it again.

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So you're telling me that a BLM spamming a singular spell is not doing so intentionally? Is not intentionally playing their job in an a. suboptimal manner, and b. a way that is just completely wrong? What about a tank not using cooldowns? Or a healer not using HoTs, shields, or other party buffs? Yeah, I don't buy it. Very few people who play suboptimally don't realize that they are playing suboptimally, and normally you encounter them in the very first couple of dungeons, not in a level 70 expert roulette dungeon.

Being courteous is a lot more than just saying hello or making polite conversation. It is also working with your team to try and make a run go as smooth as possible. Intentional bad play is not being a team player, and is not polite or courteous to the other members in your group in any way. It doesn't matter how you try to spin it.

And if this is "just a game" and "not the end of the world," why did you create what is basically a vent thread to lament getting Vote Dismissed for not meeting the expectation of your other party members?

Duty Finder is NOT just there for new individuals to find groups for content. It is also there for veterans to use and run content. The time and playstyle of one group does not trump the time and playstyle of another. All members of a party need to cooperate with one another. A player intentionally underperforming and refusing to listen to advice and improve is not good team play.

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Originally Posted by ArcanoJones

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So when does a player stop being "new" to you; 50? 60? 70? Full Verity? EX Primal gear?

It's extremely obvious that Micah, Jybril, and others are talking about EXPERT roulette, which has level 70 dungeons that are the most recent content, content that you currently don't have access to. Do you honestly think a new person can just walk in there, going through the 69 previous levels, 40 MSQ required 4-man and 8-man duties, ~600 Main Story Quests (maybe some duplicates due to the starting levels), and STILL think that said player in end-game content isn't at fault for not knowing how to play their job at a passable level?

This is hopeless.

http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/...83/043/800.png

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Originally Posted by ArcanoJones

You certainly seem the opposite of this thing you said in your profile.
"I love this game, and I love the people I have met through it. I would not trade them for the world. "
Its all about the game to you it seems..Not the people who play the game.

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Personal attacks certainly don't help to get your point of polite and courteous treatment of others across.

My profile quote is in reference to my friends that I have made in this game that I speak to on a daily basis that have helped me through difficult times in my life during the almost two years I have played. Not randoms in Duty Finder, although some are very memorable and wonderful people I hope to get matched up with again someday. But, thank you for taking my profile quote completely and totally out of context.


But you are right: we aren't accomplishing anything. If you are fine with subpar play and people intentionally playing their roles inadequately, then you do you. A lot of us prefer playing with individuals open to advice on how to improve, and not just playing badly because "my sub and I can play how I want."

Have a wonderful evening.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Personal attacks certainly don't help to get your point of polite and courteous treatment of others across. But you are right: we aren't accomplishing anything. If you are fine with subpar play and people intentionally playing their roles inadequately, then you do you. A lot of us prefer playing with individuals open to advice on how to improve, and not just playing badly because "my sub and I can play how I want."

Have a wonderful evening.

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Sorry if its seems like a personal attack I apoligiize. Maybe it was to harsh. But you guys are all attacking me for saying I am not going to kick somebody just because they are not performing with perfect efficiency. If the group is not wiping and completing the dungeon then its not even an issue regardless of what they are doing. You guys seem to be saying that if they are making the dungeon run any longer than it needs to be there going to get kicked. That shows the game is more important that the person to me. I just pointed it out to you is all. Nothing personal.

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Originally Posted by ArcanoJones

just because they are not performing with perfect efficiency.

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Who's asking for perfection? Expecting perfection for Expert Roulette, or anything outside of Savage for that matter, is completely unrealistic.

We're asking for PASSABLE knowledge of your class and the proper rotations, not spamming your weakest move or using a GCD once every 5 seconds. I don't expect savage raiders in my Expert Roulette, I expect people to not use their single target rotation on large dungeon pulls. I expect people to know that standing in AoEs is bad 99% of the time. I expect people to press a DPS cooldown at least once a dungeon. I expect people to know the most essential mechanics of a boss fight that can cause wipes or deaths. I expect people to use current level gear (AF3 + level 67-70 Accessories) and not level 50 or 60 equipment.

I'll do an example for RDM, a Job many consider the easiest DPS to play:

Passable RDM:

• Tries to avoid wasting GCDs by casting spells as often as possible, mechanics permitting.

• Tries to avoid hardcasting VerThunder or VerAero.

• Tries to avoid using Dualcast on Jolt I/II, Impact, and VerFire/VerStone.

• Uses Scatter for big pulls.

• Only uses Melee combo when it is Enchanted.

Underperforming RDM:

• Has frequent downtime between GCDs.

• Hardcasts VerThunder or VerAero often.

• Uses Dualcast on Jolt I/II, Impact, and VerFire/VerStone often.

• Uses Scatter for single target or not used for big pulls.

• Often uses Melee Combo without the White and Black Mana needed for the Enchanted version.

• Uses Tether /s

Arcano I have a question for you.

I don't know if you've gotten to the end of the MSQ content but right now one of the last duties called The Royal Menagerie. If you haven't done it yourself you can see videos on youtube so you have an idea of what to expect.

It is (for main story content) a rather difficult fight but the tomestone of verity/creation gear, omega normal and savage raids and the continuation of the main story of the game is all locked behind this one fight.

Again this argument is sort of contingent on you understanding this fight, I will pull up videos for you if you ask.

The question I have is are you okay with never moving forward with the main story? You could not clear this fight with the caliber of player you are defending. You couldn't even outgear it because any gear upgrades other than crafted gear (which at level 70 is millions of gil per set) are locked behind it.

The only way you get to clear this is by queueing and getting some competent players. Again you don't need to be a savage raider or anything but you need a basic understanding of your job as magnanimousCynic points out above.

Would you burden every other player in the game with carrying these people through that content? Because frankly I've had to carry plenty of people on this fight and it can get rough.

What is your solution to this? Do those players need to improve then? Do they have to never progress their main story because they can't clear this? Are you telling the rest of us to just suck it up and carry them? Because for all your talk of "let people play however they want" it would be sort of hypocritical of you to tell me I have to carry these people for my Trial Roulette every day.

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Originally Posted by ArcanoJones

Sorry if its seems like a personal attack I apoligiize. Maybe it was to harsh. But you guys are all attacking me for saying I am not going to kick somebody just because they are not performing with perfect efficiency. If the group is not wiping and completing the dungeon then its not even an issue regardless of what they are doing. You guys seem to be saying that if they are making the dungeon run any longer than it needs to be there going to get kicked. That shows the game is more important that the person to me. I just pointed it out to you is all. Nothing personal.

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No one is attacking you, we simply disagree with your stance. For example sake, if I queue into a dungeon and notice the DPS aren't aoeing, I'll tell them they should as it deals high overall damage during larger pulls. If they refuse, I will kick them. Why? They are now intentionally doing something they were just told isn't as efficient. Why should their preferred playstyle supersede mine? If the Vote Kick goes through, majority ruled. You don't have to like it, but I don't like players who slow dungeons to a crawl.

And what happens if that player is just learning the class and isn't very familiar with their single target rotations, let alone their aoe?

I'm so glad I moved to a Japanese world I don't have to deal with this crap. People just act like the adults they are and do their job, and deal with it if someone is underperforming instead of acting selfish and entitled.

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Originally Posted by Gallus

And what happens if that player is just learning the class and isn't very familiar with their single target rotations, let alone their aoe?

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The deciding factor is the level of the player. Are we in Tam-Tara NM or Kugane Castle? Because the previous people and I were talking about bad players in Expert Roulette. If they aren't familiar with their class by 70 then they should look stuff up.

If you're talking about a player in a low level duty then of course it's ok as they are still new and (hopefully) open to learning. And when I'm in that type of low level duty I'll try my best to give advice if I see that they could use it.

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Originally Posted by magnanimousCynic

~Common sense~

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He just said what most of the playes have been trying to explain to ArcanoJones in all the thread but seems unable to understand.

A player who is in a lower level dungeon -EVEN if that player it's a mentor- learning the basis of a class, or just trying it out to figure it future mechanics of it at later levels when he has those basis is not a problem to anyone. If that player is willing to listen to a few tips -in a friendly way- all the better. Even at level 50 i expect to encounter this kind of thing with MCH, AST, DRK, RDM and SAM being the first in the list -MCH, AST and DRK because the starter level is 30, RDM and SAM because it is 50. In level terms, by the 60 every player willing to learn to use the class in a normal fashion should understand the basic mechanics of it by now. I am not talking about an EX or Savage example, just a normal and basic understanding that is enough for normal group content.

At level 70 a player should be more than capable to understand what it's optimal to his Job and what not. A Tank should not be learning how to maintain agro, a DPS should not be learning how to do his rotation -in a basic way-, and a healer should have enough experience to know what to expect of the other 2 to balance his healing and dps -being the first one the most important, naturally-. In the same fashion, a player who is doing a leveling roulette but has a high level class should not be hindering the rest of the party by, for example, refusing to use his Ver-spells or a BLM forcing his way with ice/lighting spells only.

This is a MMO with a COOP sense play style, every member of a group should be able to expect to give his part to acomplish the duty. And SHOULD do it. If a member in hindering the progress, there are a lot of reasons for it and i expect communication to know how to proceed. Is it new? Ok, i will give him a hand. Is it a returner? No worries. Is it trying a new rotation looking for his play style but respecting his job basics? Cool, try it. He needs to kill a certain mob for any reason? (Hunting log of a GC, for example). No for me, we can take a little detour to finish them in a flash.

Is it a player who is denying the basics of his job, being rude, and shutting anyones mouth with "you dont pay my sub" or "you cannot tell me hoy to play, you dont even have that class leveled" or anything of the sort? Or refusing to communicate? A kick in the ass out of the party.

One thing is being helpfull to people, the other is letting anyone do as he/she pleases despite everyone warnings.

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Originally Posted by Endeleon

I'm so glad I moved to a Japanese world I don't have to deal with this crap. People just act like the adults they are and do their job, and deal with it if someone is underperforming instead of acting selfish and entitled.

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It's also selfish to willingly underperform one's job just because "it's my sub and I play the way I want to play." There's nothing wrong with individuals not wanting to carry players through content when the content is far enough into the game/leveling process that the underperformer should have the most basic understanding of their job and role in a group. My actual understanding from Japanese parties is that they still expect everyone to work together and pull their own weight when it comes to clearing content. Not that they just willingly carry bad players.

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Originally Posted by Gallus

And what happens if that player is just learning the class and isn't very familiar with their single target rotations, let alone their aoe?

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We are mostly discussing players in content closer to endgame (specifically, a lot of us have been talking about Level 70 dungeons and how players should have the most basic understanding of their job at such a level), not discussing players that have just unlocked a job and are still trying to understand how it works.

The point a lot of us have made still stands though: if we give a player advice on how to perform better and improve (e.g., when and how they should be using their AOE skills), it's common courtesy for the player to accept such advice with grace, especially since a lot of advice is devised out in a very polite way by the helpful people in this community. If the person continues to just blatantly underperform after being politely educated on more efficient ways to play their job, that is rude and a slap in the face to the party trying to help them, and if the party decides to dismiss the player from the duty, they are allowed to do so if the majority rules it's warranted.

We are not talking about brand new players or players that have just unlocked a job and that are still learning.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

The point a lot of us have made still stands though: if we give a player advice on how to perform better and improve (e.g., when and how they should be using their AOE skills), it's common courtesy for the player to accept such advice with grace, especially since a lot of advice is devised out in a very polite way by the helpful people in this community.

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Yeah, if someone says "Oh, I was advised to do this" or "Oh, I find doing this is better" when I give them advice. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and will work with them to hash out the best possible thing. I'm not infalliable, sometimes my well-intentioned advice isn't correct. I'm willing to listen and figure out the best thing. If you've been receiving conflicting information that means you're now confused, ok, no problem. Let's work it out together. Just communicate with me and be civil and we'll have no issues.

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Originally Posted by ArcanoJones

Jybil don't you know that the duty finder is there so that NEW players can get groups to go through the MSQ dungeons. But you specifically said not to come into the DF doing that or you will get kicked.

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For the last time NO IT IS NOT. Duty Finder is there so all players can get stuff done in a timely manner. Want to do a dungeon for exp? Use DF. Want to do pvp? Use DF. Gotta do your expert roulette? Use DF. Do you see where I'm going? Duty finder is for EVERYONE.

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Originally Posted by Gallus

And what happens if that player is just learning the class and isn't very familiar with their single target rotations, let alone their aoe?

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Although I was speaking more towards current dungeons, I do have an example. A while back two friends and I queued into Leveling Roulette and got a brand new tank. She pulled without either stance, which my friend reminded her to put on. No reason as she pulls away. We actually wipe this time around since her gear is equally abysmal. Still no reason when I bring up Shield Oath. It took my friend losing her patience and all caps screaming Shield Oath for this person to finally listen. At that point, we kicked her. New player status shouldn't exempt you from standard courtesy. Back when I was new, I found out how much better Doom Spike was than Ring of Thorns and thanked the people who brought it up for me. Nothing is more irksome than trying to help someone and them refusing to listen. It's entirely different if they were told something and ask about it. At least we can talk, but to just ignore people? That is what's rude.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

At least we can talk, but to just ignore people? That is what's rude.

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Did you use auto translate for it? I've found that sometimes it's not that they are ignoring, it's that they don't understand because of language barriers. Even people who have English selected doesn't mean they are able to speak/read English the same as anyone else. Not saying it's the case, but sometimes it does help.

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Originally Posted by ArcanoJones

Sorry if its seems like a personal attack I apoligiize. Maybe it was to harsh. But you guys are all attacking me for saying I am not going to kick somebody just because they are not performing with perfect efficiency. If the group is not wiping and completing the dungeon then its not even an issue regardless of what they are doing. You guys seem to be saying that if they are making the dungeon run any longer than it needs to be there going to get kicked. That shows the game is more important that the person to me. I just pointed it out to you is all. Nothing personal.

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I am not attacking you for having a different playstyle with regards to myself, nor did I inherently assume that you considered the players in this game as nothing more than mere NPCs and not actual people. Merely I am disagreeing with you on the basis that I do not want to carry underperforming players in higher level content (note: I am not speaking about new players in low-level dungeons still learning, but players in later content that should be very well aware of the bare basics of their job and rotation), and what I consider respectful and courteous play. I disagreed with you on your opinion regarding the Thunder Mage frequently brought up in the course of this discussion, and I also disagreed with you that the time of one player is more important than the time of the entire party. Duties are a team effort in this game, and the entire team needs to be taken into consideration, not just the time and playstyle of one individual, underperforming or overperforming.

My discussion about the current state of the Vote Dismiss feature was more of a tangent discussion, and in no way was meant as a personal attack against you nor any of the posters I was debating with. Rather, it was a discussion, which is the purpose of a forum. I do not devolve into personal attacks against posters to try and get my points across, which is what I felt like you did to me in your point to try and say that people should respect others. I have a general amount of respect for any and all people I group with. However, the minute I try to genuinely help a player and they brush off my advice with a "I don't care" or "it's my sub, I play how I want", and clearly do not care that they are a hindrance to the group, that is when they lose my respect. If someone is not going to show the rest of a party a basic amount of respect, they do not deserve the same courtesy in return. Respect is something that is earned.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CDhnoy0UIAEGWIK.jpg:large

I've said it several times and so have a fair few others in this thread - we aren't referring to new players or people who are still learning.

I think a big problem is that everyone is too focused on their delicate covfeefees. If a suggestion is made as to how to optimize your play, it isn't necessarily an attack. From what I have seen both in-game and on the forums, however, a lot of people seem to take critiques of their play really personally.

I will not kick someone who is trying. I will, however, kick someone who is spamming a single attack and being petulant when asked to optimize. This isn't a difficult concept to grasp. I don't appreciate having my time wasted.

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Originally Posted by missybee

I will not kick someone who is trying. I will, however, kick someone who is spamming a single attack and being petulant when asked to optimize. This isn't a difficult concept to grasp. I don't appreciate having my time wasted.

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This. I don't know why people take things as ''you need to improve'' as personal attacks. I know there are some people who will flat out say they are shit, but that's a whole different story. Many times I've tried to make people improve being nice about it, all I get is that they wanna play they way they play and I can't do anything about it. Or the old excuse most people use ''elitist prick'' etc. Many and I say many players like yourself and myself included wants people to improve and we want to be a good source for a group, while on the other hand many don't want to be, they rather just sit back and let people do their shit for them. Selfish, ignorant, greedy etc etc. That's what I usually call these players tbh.

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Originally Posted by ArcanoJones

Sorry if its seems like a personal attack I apoligiize. Maybe it was to harsh. But you guys are all attacking me for saying I am not going to kick somebody just because they are not performing with perfect efficiency. If the group is not wiping and completing the dungeon then its not even an issue regardless of what they are doing. You guys seem to be saying that if they are making the dungeon run any longer than it needsto be there going to get kicked. That shows the game is more important that the person to me. I just pointed it out to you is all. Nothing personal.

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You are over exaggerating on your interpretation on what people are saying. No one is asking for perfect performance, what people do not want is a 1 button hitting bot. I was in a place called Aetherochemical Research Facility. 3 people where new, one was lv 69 who commented they never did it before. So I asked how they got 69 with out clearing the place (I wanted some information to see how well they will take advice) once they told me they bought a leveling potion and new to the game I simply said use spreadshot with 3+ enemies. I guided the run, told them the moves, they tried and we did fine. It was subpar performance from an elitist view and slow but they where trying, no argumentative comebacks when giving advice. I also told the tank not to use NQ weapons because they are sub par ( I really wish SE do something about NQ vs HQ weapons, it is a noob trap people use to bypass ilevel requirements)

Unlike my situation, if I was in the very same situation as that thundermage story you are trying to defend, I would kick them too. Not because of the playstyle, but because of the reply they got. You are a very new player, talking to people that ran thousands of DFs, so much so some of us can spot weak DPS just off the speed things die and seeing attack animations/ buffs and debuffs. Vote kick also has a 4 hour CD, so it prevents people being ultra picky, it is usually reserved for outright trolling, and other things that violate the ToS directly. In your case of SMN, if all you do is cast ruin I over and over, you ignore the rotation advice I give, and you promptly reply with something on the lines of "You do not pay for my sub" then expect a kick.

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Originally Posted by Avatre

Did you use auto translate for it? I've found that sometimes it's not that they are ignoring, it's that they don't understand because of language barriers. Even people who have English selected doesn't mean they are able to speak/read English the same as anyone else. Not saying it's the case, but sometimes it does help.

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Not an excuse, the person could of flashed an auto translate message that they do not understand, it is what I do.

Sorry ..But I don't tell people how to play there character. If they ask for advice thats another story. But unsolicited comments on what they should be doing are usually going to be taken with a mind your own business attitude. That is human nature . And most people will react in that way. Thats just the way people are. If you think about it you would act the same. Especially now when you think you know what you are doing.

I don't know why people are suprised that people react this way.

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Originally Posted by ArcanoJones

Sorry ..But I don't tell people how to play there character. If they ask for advice thats another story. But unsolicited comments on what they should be doing are usually going to be taken with a mind your own business attitude. That is human nature . And most people will react in that way. Thats just the way people are. If you think about it you would act the same. Especially now when you think you know what you are doing.

I don't know why people are suprised that people react this way.

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Maybe because I've done it so many times and 9 times out of 10 I've received a positive response? Perhaps it has something to do with how I'm phrasing it. I do it as a "Have you considered this?" type approach. Pointing them out to something new that may be worth them trying. I phrase it in a way that is taken as a suggestion, and most people will at least try it I find.