WHM getting progressively more unnecessary in content?

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Originally Posted by Accelerating

So why are most speed runners using SCH/AST instead of WHM/AST when that comp is really that much better?

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The only situation where WHM/AST would be useful is in first couple of weeks progression. After that you're going to toss the WHM because there's no reason for the extra safe healing.
And even that's debatable because AST can heal just as well as WHM in diurnal.

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

The only situation where WHM/AST would be useful is in first couple of weeks progression. After that you're going to toss the WHM because there's no reason for the extra safe healing.
And even that's debatable because AST can heal just as well as WHM in diurnal.

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Same can be said to PLD. They are good for progresstion and then replaced with DRK mostly.

Some of you are grasping at straws.

Like seriously, both have their identity and both are still used today. WHM or AST will not fade out. Both are very strong in their own right.

Using a Healing Per Second parser to "parse healing"... I'm sorry. We aren't dps. If we are keeping the party alive, that's what matters. Not a parser.

I play both WHM and AST. Sometimes, I feel WHM is better. Sometimes I feel like I can do better as AST.

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Originally Posted by DeadRiser

Some of you are grasping at straws.

Like seriously, both have their identity and both are still used today. WHM or AST will not fade out. Both are very strong in their own right.

Using a Healing Per Second parser to "parse healing"... I'm sorry. We aren't dps. If we are keeping the party alive, that's what matters. Not a parser.

I play both WHM and AST. Sometimes, I feel WHM is better. Sometimes I feel like I can do better as AST.

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I suppose the main thing is, what do you mean by 'better'? I believe that for people who aim for excellence that the only thing that matters is "clear time" - or how long it takes to beat the instance. They DPS because it lowers clear time. People dying is bad not because it is innately bad... it's bad because it raises the clear time due to time and resources taken to raise the dead person and the weakness lowering the stats of the raised individual - lowering damage, and therefore raising the clear time. This explains other roles' actions as well. Tanks like being outside of tank stance because it increases damage and lowers clear time. Some groups let certain DPS take some avoidable damage to let said DPS deal more damage in an attempt to lower clear time. WHM is considered worse than SCH and AST because the tools it has allegedly does not lower clear time as well as the other healers.

I love playing WHM, and I have made peace with the fact that it isn't as good as speed clearing as the other two healers. After all, there will always be a 'worst healer' - the best I can hope for is that the difference between the best WHM, SCH, and AST are as small as possible. Where the best player using the worst healer still performs better than 99% of all other players, and that switching to the better ones is not that much of a gain.

Yeah, AST/SCH is the speed run combo. The current dream comp is DRK/WAR/AST/SCH/NIN/DRG/BRD/MCH. Although you can swap MCH for a caster just fine, just the double ranged utility is a bit overpowered this tier. PLD, MNK, and WHM are the least desired.

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

The only situation where WHM/AST would be useful is in first couple of weeks progression. After that you're going to toss the WHM because there's no reason for the extra safe healing.
And even that's debatable because AST can heal just as well as WHM in diurnal.

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It's a fallacy to think WHM is "safer" for progression, it's not. AST mitigation and buff toolkit is too good to ignore this tier. It's also no coincidence world first Creator Savage was AST/SCH and their DPS was much higher than the subsequent followers that brought White Mage.

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Originally Posted by Yeol

Same can be said to PLD. They are good for progresstion and then replaced with DRK mostly.

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Nope. PLD hasn't been optimal for progression since DRK was introduced in 3.0.

Absolutely DRK>>>>PLD in A12S cause it's all magic, again. Their Dark Mind cooldown cuts down on tank swaps and also brings more DPS. Despite PLD buffs, and QoL changes last cycle they are still quite a bit behind.

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Originally Posted by DeadRiser

Some of you are grasping at straws.

Like seriously, both have their identity and both are still used today. WHM or AST will not fade out. Both are very strong in their own right.

Using a Healing Per Second parser to "parse healing"... I'm sorry. We aren't dps. If we are keeping the party alive, that's what matters. Not a parser.

I play both WHM and AST. Sometimes, I feel WHM is better. Sometimes I feel like I can do better as AST.

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No one cares about healing per second when the party doesn't die, what matters is the dps a healer can contribute.

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Originally Posted by DeadRiser

Some of you are grasping at straws.

Like seriously, both have their identity and both are still used today. WHM or AST will not fade out. Both are very strong in their own right.

Using a Healing Per Second parser to "parse healing"... I'm sorry. We aren't dps. If we are keeping the party alive, that's what matters. Not a parser.

I play both WHM and AST. Sometimes, I feel WHM is better. Sometimes I feel like I can do better as AST.

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The fact is, there are two other healers that can do much more than "keep the party alive".

AST offers buffs, mitigation and has a near unlimited resource of MP.
SCH offers a fairy with a full toolkit of useful abilities and high mitigation.
WHM offers Cure III, the strongest Aoe heal in the game, but also the shortest ranged heal in the game.

Compare the usefulness of all that. WHM is the only healer that simply stops at healing while other go on to offer a ton more. It's a problem.

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Originally Posted by technole

Nope. PLD hasn't been optimal for progression since DRK was introduced in 3.0.

Absolutely DRK>>>>PLD in A12S cause it's all magic, again. Their Dark Mind cooldown cuts down on tank swaps and also brings more DPS. Despite PLD buffs, and QoL changes last cycle they are still quite a bit behind.

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I know that DRK is better for A12S than PLD. But A9S-A10S-A11S PLD can do them just fine.
In our group we used PLD/WHM for progression and DRK/AST when farming.
A12S is a different story.

So PLD replaced by DRK and WHM replaced by AST.
It would have been better if we went DRK/AST from the beginning. But WHM/PLD make things easier when learning (A12S is an exception).

PLD made things easier on learning healers throughout most of Midas and the first 3 raids from Creator. So yes, in most of that, PLD makes progression easier. Also A2.

I wouldn't really say WHM makes progression easier anymore, though. AST and SCH together have enough burst healing to make Cure III and Assize unnecessary in literally every dual-healer scenario, and as said before, Disable + CU are much better than WHM's powerheals.

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Originally Posted by Accelerating

No one cares about healing per second when the party doesn't die, what matters is the dps a healer can contribute.

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Yep, I like to look at "casts per minute" as a healer measurement. What are they doing when a heal isn't necessary? Are they taking advantage of every GCD that they have or are they standing around for seconds that could have had cleric and DoTs thrown at the boss rather safely. The better healers in this game are making full use of the time they have when a heal isn't necessary, even in-progression. Better phase pushes means less to heal.

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Originally Posted by Yeol

It would have been better if we went DRK/AST from the beginning. But WHM/PLD make things easier when learning (A12S is an exception).

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Yeah, PLD is perfectly fine in A9-11S. I will say DRK is unfairly favored in A9S for DPS because they can easily toss AoE damage to the adds and Faust.

Our DRK only goes PLD in A10S since it's easy mode for the job in a sense, boss is physical, hardly much AoE. Still, the higher DPS contribution from DRK can't be understated. Then you got Delirium if you aren't bringing MNK for the INT down, and the "optimal" melee comp doesn't include them. But PLD Devine Veil is helpful for the heavy stuff like Eternal Darkness and Whirlwind spam.

We actually were WHM/SCH in the first weeks of the patch through A9-11S. But that was my co-healer's choice after having cleared Midas Savage as WHM. She would go AST in some lockouts during progression and weeklies, then switched permanently after our first A11S clear since the buff meta was too good, and hadn't looked back.

I still preferred AST in A11S-A12S over WHM anyday even during progression. Synastry shines in A12S, and Disable/CU also helps SCH. More mitigation, means less healing, and room for both healers to DPS more.

Cure III was kind of WHM niche in A6S and A8S but you could handle it just fine with AST. This tier it's good for A11S Photon everyone spam, but light speed covers that too, honestly just a bit better since you are moving for lasers.

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Originally Posted by Fernosaur

I wouldn't really say WHM makes progression easier anymore, though. AST and SCH together have enough burst healing to make Cure III and Assize unnecessary in literally every dual-healer scenario, and as said before, Disable + CU are much better than WHM's powerheals.

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I actually agree with this. I say WHM is better in progression, but when I think about it I'm not really basing that on anything. Cure III is hardly ever needed and when it is AST has it's own tools to mimic it's power. Really I'm finding it increasingly hard to ever consider WHM in a comp.
I mean, PLD and Monk have obvious benefits to both jobs, but WHM just offers nothing special in it's role.
This worked in 2.0, but with a third healer WHM can't continue to get by with healing alone.

It mostly worked in 2.0 because sch didnt have any way to heal decently in AoE at all, and whm was there for that. Sch only had succor and faire regen back then.

It worked in 2.0 because there was only WHM/SCH. There was no alternative. WHM didn't have the oGCD heals, and SCH was limited to Shield Succor. Today Indom is OP, and AST also has mitigation that WHM never had, and stacks with SCH.

I remember helping a Duty Finder Turn 13 clear in the day as SCH/SCH and our Succor-spam was the scariest part of the fight for the Stack/divebomb/run since no Cure III. (Please crit, so people that don't get topped off live). Not to mention weak-protect, which I think the 10% echo took care of in a sense.

I don't understand why dps matters so much once you meet certain thresholds for phase skipping and enrages.

The real question is can WHM's increased healing potential help recover from mistakes in valuable ways? If not, what can be done about it?

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Originally Posted by basketofseals

I don't understand why dps matters so much once you meet certain thresholds for phase skipping and enrages.

The real question is can WHM's increased healing potential help recover from mistakes in valuable ways? If not, what can be done about it?

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More DPS is never a bad thing. If you can finish a 5 min fight in 3 mins thanks to AST people will take it.
It's possible to do some very interesting phase skips with the power of AST. Such as A11 skipping the Lapis lazuli orbs entirely.

As far as what WHMs extra healing potency actually does for a raid.... nothing actually. The slightly higher regen potency is insignificant except on paper, which doesn't mean much in actual battle.
Cure, Cure II and Medica are actually overall weaker than it's benefic and Helios counterparts because of the sect effect on AST. Cure III hasn't been really needed since 2.0.

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

More DPS is never a bad thing. If you can finish a 5 min fight in 3 mins thanks to AST people will take it.

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I have to really agree with you here at the very least about the A11 phase skips. If I can kick off some really well timed (and blessed RNG) balances and arrows, it's easy to completely skip this phase and go straight into the next.

As for Cure III I also agree. As sad as it is there are so few instances when it's truly beneficial that I moved it to my third hotbar which is for occasional use skills. It's also only worth it when the proc happens to halve its cost.

What basically ended up happening with AST was they took the best from both SCH and WHM and pieced them together, adding in a whole other level of benefit. Like you said, in the 3 healer meta WHM needs a new gimmick basically. Healing alone isn't going to cut it anymore. :(

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Originally Posted by basketofseals

I don't understand why dps matters so much once you meet certain thresholds for phase skipping and enrages.

The real question is can WHM's increased healing potential help recover from mistakes in valuable ways? If not, what can be done about it?

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You're not really into raiding I reckon? Healer balance is 100% fine for anything but savage.

I started leveling AST so I could bring that for my raid team if I needed to and I'm only level 35 and already starting to feel like this is a straight up UPGRADE from WHM

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Originally Posted by ToasterMan

I started leveling AST so I could bring that for my raid team if I needed to and I'm only level 35 and already starting to feel like this is a straight up UPGRADE from WHM

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How in the world is that even possible?

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Originally Posted by Assirra

How in the world is that even possible?

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At level 35, you actually have a lot of tools readily available on AST compared to WHM at the same level. This includes:

• Luminiferous Aether (which already has the boosted duration)
• Essential Dignity
• Draw and Royal Road for buffs (minor but it's there)
• A more potent HoT via Aspected Benefic

While already having Cure, Cure II, and Esuna equivalents at their disposal at a lower MP cost to boot.

It's actually pretty busted how many tools AST have at their disposal at low level compared to WHM.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

At level 35, you actually have a lot of tools readily available on AST compared to WHM at the same level. This includes:

• Luminiferous Aether (which already has the boosted duration)
• Essential Dignity
• Draw and Royal Road for buffs (minor but it's there)
• A more potent HoT via Aspected Benefic

While already having Cure, Cure II, and Esuna equivalents at their disposal at a lower MP cost to boot.

It's actually pretty busted how many tools AST have at their disposal at low level compared to WHM.

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To be fair, I'll still take White Mage over Ast at 35-50 any day for higher damage with Holy and Stone II.

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Originally Posted by Rennies

To be fair, I'll still take White Mage over Ast at 35-50 any day for higher damage with Holy and Stone II.

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I'm the opposite probably up to level 45, where Holy is there for everyone's shining explosive ball of death, lol.

I know it's a matter of play style and opinion but I personally like AST's kit offers me more options and longevity thus giving me more DPS uptime versus WHMs kit in all the dungeons between 15 to 45. Essential Dignity gives some gigantic windows of opportunity at those levels.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

At level 35, you actually have a lot of tools readily available on AST compared to WHM at the same level. This includes:

• Luminiferous Aether (which already has the boosted duration)
• Essential Dignity
• Draw and Royal Road for buffs (minor but it's there)
• A more potent HoT via Aspected Benefic

While already having Cure, Cure II, and Esuna equivalents at their disposal at a lower MP cost to boot.

It's actually pretty busted how many tools AST have at their disposal at low level compared to WHM.

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Having a OGCD healing bomb at level 30 is indeed surprising. That's usually saved for the last piece of your kit, as shown by WHMs Benediction/Tetragrammaton and SCHs Lustrate.
Though it does become lacking at level 50 where you have no access to aoes, Synastry or Card extensions.

If damage dealing is the main concern, a simple buff may work. Add a trait that gives WHM a %dmg buff to WHM for each HoT she casts on her party, 10% for medica II, 15% for regen. The buff would only apply on the first respective HoT for each party member, so it doesn't result in ridiculous party compositions. Granted, I'm throwing out sample numbers and I'm in favor of much tweaking.

I expect it would do the following:
-re-establish WHM as the plain but powerful healer
-not increase the complexity of the job, unless players are trying to maximize dps (balancing mp, emnity, and timing)
-medica II dmg buff would scale heavily with full parties, which I believe was the main grievance of this thread

#
#makeWHMsgreatagain

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Originally Posted by Warr_of_Lint

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I'm happy with simple solutions, but the reason I wouldn't go this route is that the average WHM already overheals like a crazy bish, and I don't want to see WHMs maintaining 100% uptime on Medica II and Regens to get a damage buff. I think healing skills should stay in the category of rewarding efficient, timely use rather than spam.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

I wouldn't go this route is that the average WHM already overheals like a crazy bish, and I don't want to see WHMs maintaining 100% uptime on Medica II and Regens to get a damage buff.

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But it would be impossible to maintain 100% on medica and regen and still dps spam. Any fool who tried that would find herself at the top of the enmity list and without mp. All I'm suggesting is a pathway for the WHM at the top of their games to become the among the most desirable healers for raids, but they would still need to make judicious use of medica, regen, dps skills, and shroud to maximize their dps without screwing everything up.

Your run of the mill WHM would get a moderate dps boost, which they probably need at this point, without changing what they do now. Sure, some mediocre players will start spamming medica thinking that's what they're supposed to do, but we can't go about banning scissors just because some people run with them.

#makeWHMsgreatagain

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Originally Posted by Warr_of_Lint

But it would be impossible to maintain 100% on medica and regen and still dps spam. Any fool who tried that would find herself at the top of the enmity list and without mp.

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This is where your faith in the average fool is misplaced. You can bet your ass that WHMs everywhere would be fighting tanks for enmity even more than the really bad ones are now. Besides, a strong WHM already produces a great deal of enmity between Shroud uses if they are keeping up DPS while healing responsibly. A 10 or 15% buff to their damage output connected to a high-enmity skill like Medica II would almost be a tease of sorts ("Enjoy this great DPS buff, but have fun managing your enmity against a crappy tank with your regens and your even higher DPS.")

I don't disagree with the idea that WHM needs a little something, but I'd prefer not to risk training up-and-coming WHMs to develop more bad healing habits. For example, I'd rather that a DPS buff be attached to the use of an offensive skill or at least to a comparatively minor healing effect without a regen attached.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

This is where your faith in the average fool is misplaced..

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I suppose you're right. I've been walking around this game for over a year, thinking its strange there are so many nice things that we ought to have (butt size slider). And I don't single out healers as the reason we don't have them.

Still #makeWHMsgreatagain

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Originally Posted by Warr_of_Lint

But it would be impossible to maintain 100% on medica and regen and still dps spam. Any fool who tried that would find herself at the top of the enmity list and without mp.

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Ohhhhh buddy, do I have news for you.

In a raid scenario, a WHM that can gain a buff from keeping regens up will no doubt 100% absolutely keep them up for that buff. Even if it means stealing aggro. All they'll do is blame tank aggro, and tanks will ask for aggro buffs they don't actually need, and Ninjas will become even more prominent for their aggro utility.

Not to mention WHM will go from a healer to a regen spammer that slaps on regens and watches everyone die to deal dmg.
Of we're going to add dmg utility to WHM, it's can't be tied to it's heals. It either had to play off of Cleric Stance or the DPS skills themselves (ex Aero ticks have a chance of making Fluid Aura reset).

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

(ex Aero ticks have a chance of making Fluid Aura reset).

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I see where you're going with this. An interesting example, I'm more interested in a dps bonus though. I would prefer a lowering of wind & earth resistance just because random OCD recharges are going to be impossible to maximize with cleric stance cycles.

#makeWHMsgreatagain

The usage of massive healing become invalid when almost anything in savage content one hit kill anything non tank.
Pretty sad but its the truth. Can't Cure, Cure II or Cure III dead peoples. Sad life. My internal White Mage cried. WHM is my first class healer now i barely use WHM but in solo content (Beast Tribe/FATE).

don't do that. allow people to have their discussion without you're unnecessary criticism of the topic

If I would buff WHM I would give a trait to Cleric
Traited Cleric: Every time you switch into Cleric your next damage spell costs half mana and deals 30% more damage. Every time you switch out of Cleric your next healing spell costs half mana and heals 30% more.
I think it would give them their niche as the best raw healer and best raw damage dealer. (Technically WHM are the ones that do the most damage out of all the healers, their problem is that it's unsustainable)

A new patch, a new raid, new dungeons, and even more content that favors high DPS over stronger healing.

Sigh.
For those who don't know, Zurvan has a mildly annoying mechanic called Soar which you can skip if you have a certain amount of DPS. With an AST, reaching this number is not too difficult.
As far as healing goes, there's, once again, nothing that requires the use of Cure III or heavy healing in general.

I don't know how long this trend of fights that are easy to heal and congratulates higher DPS is going to continue, but I sure hope it's over soon because this is becoming very annoying and off-putting to play as WHM.

As a WAR who has tanked Dun Scaith a few times over the past few days, I can say that WHMs are amazing in there. There's so much consistent, heavy damage going on the tanks in there (and everyone else if they don't know what they're doing), and I love me some Divine Seal'd Regens and Cures. I'm a SCH myself when I heal, but for damage that comes in multiple hits in short periods of time I feel a lot safer with WHMs.

To be fair, that is more due to people still getting a feel for Dun Scaith. The problem with White Mage isn't that it can't handle fights effectively. Scholar and Astro simply do it all better because both offer immense amount of utility on top of consistent healing. Divine Seal + Regen or Cure III is nice; Aspected Benefic + party wide balance is better.