Square Enix: Please reconsider putting the Native American war bonnet attire in-game.

Several people in my family are Native Americans and none of them have issues with this.

I admit I too am a little surprised it did take about 40 pages of consistent hateful, sarcastic, accusation aimed at the OP for her to bring it up. Had it been me, I probably would have said it after the 4th comment. Let alone waited tell the 40th page.


Tho I strongly disagree with some of the points the OP has made, in her defense she has been treated like chew toy. It's Pack Mentality. If an alpha dog in a group attacks or shows aggression towards another dog, the others will join in even without knowing that offense the other dog has done.

Cesar Millan, back me up on this.
https://media.giphy.com/media/xT0BKN...JafK/giphy.gif

So with people coming in right at the start saying negative things about the OP and the entire subject, it strongly encouraged others to do that same. At the very least gave the impression that if someone says otherwise it would be at the risk of the angry villagers to turn their attention on that poster.

So even if they came to the thread thinking there could be a hint of truth in the statement, after seeing the type of comments that were getting a lot of praise, became the deciding factor for I bet a lot of people. - I think most of us here are adults, but it can be very easy for some to fall back into that High School style hierarchy system.

I just encourage people to be a little more Punk-Rock. "Be heard, not herded" and "Question Everything"

If someone says the headress is offensive, - ask why?
If someone says it's not. - ask why?


To hit you with a little Skyrim now..
" One sure mark of a fool is to dismiss anything that falls outside his experience as being impossible." ―Farengar Secret-Fire

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Masquerade

There is a big difference between racism and offensive. Racism takes thought and energy. It's premeditated.

---

It actually doesn't, which is the unfortunate thing and why racism persists through so many threads of society despite outward opposition to it. Racism can occur because of someone's conscious, active thought and decision, and because of a subconscious association that the person committing the racist act doesn't even recognize.

I largely agree with what you've said so far, but I did want to nitpick a little here. :)

As a Native American, I am only offended because I think it could be made to look better.

I have my doubts about it being a war bonnet. They use eagle feathers in those, as the eagle is a very important (in fact it's the most sacred) symbol in their culture. Those feathers are black, not white or two-toned like the eagle feathers they use. They're not even brown, or an off color black. They're black. Using anything else makes it not a war bonnet, considering the horns and eagle feathers are what makes it so symbolically important (at least with the Plains, each tribe has their own unique spin). Different feathers are used for different things, and have different meanings. Not to mention they don't droop or curl at the ends like it does in the screenshot. Again, if anything, this is a mix of different tribes, including other aboriginal tribes likely from other parts, as most of them share some resemblance to one another.

As an actual Native American, to me, I don't find this all that racist and offensive.

Just disrespectful.

Yes, they are earned through acts of heroism, but we play as a character who does many heroic deeds throughout the entire Main Scenario..

But I honestly think they shouldn't remove it only because few people find it offensive.

Why are people assuming that a head dress like that is automatically North American Native?

This whole appropriation thing makes no sense... Did they appropriate Shinto customs by having the traditional garb included in game? How bout cowboy culture? Persians? What about European culture with coats of arms and knights and nobility? Why is one hat more important than the rest of those?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pheryx

Why are people assuming that a head dress like that is automatically North American Native?

---

I honestly do not know of all and every aboriginal peoples with headdresses that have feathers in them to make the most educated guess of where SE took inspiration from. From what I have seen, its closest resemblance is to some of the war bonnets from the Plains of Native Americans. It's not quite exact of the images I have seen and, yes considering how people have appropriated the war bonnets I cannot tell which tribe's it is. I do feel that the most likely inspiration is Native American but I wouldn't say I am 100% sure. Native Americans certainly are not the only peoples with feathered headdresses. It wasn't my knee jerk reaction but I haven't seen non Native American that resembles it closer.

So far the closest I've gotten to the headwear piece everyone is talking about for non Native American is this headwear that I found attributed to Taiwan's Thao/Ngan tribe.
http://d3lp4xedbqa8a5.cloudfront.net.../P_Taiwan4.jpg

While I do not care one way or the other what happens with this particular item I will say if they remove it they would then to be fair to ALL cultures and people remove anything religious or from a culture and not of their own minds, which means removal of the game as a whole as almost everything in some way is an appropriation of some culture be it Christianity, Catholic, Norse, Pagan, Chinese, Japanese, Arabic, Persian and many more. The entire game is a mesh of different cultural items, beings, and other stuff. If you find this offensive what if I told you I found the entire HW storyline of the betrayal of the church in poor taste due to the past decade of issues within the roman catholic church? Will you champion the complete deletion of this expansion? How about the Primals we are slaying? Should we remove all of those as they are almost (if not all) based on various gods of other cultures and we are sitting there killing them? Will you champion the removal of those too? I guess we could just delete the whole game and the whole series. At that point I would kindly ask you to just quit because you are no longer supporting the game as a whole.

If you are going to champion your cause but ignore the others by continuing to play the game if this item is removed then you yourselves are nothing more than bigots and racists as you cant view anything outside of what directly affects you as important. You can stomp your foot all you like at this item but in the end its shown that there are people from the culture it comes from excited to see it. You would deny them the ability to see it?

I don't support the removal of anything even if I find it personally offensive because if my heritage and culture are being added to a platform that promotes people taking an interest in it and I see my heritage passed on in popular media in a positive way in this day and age where so many traditions and cultures are dying out simply due to the passage of time.

I ask those of you who wish to stamp out the depiction of cultural items one thing. How many people know about Odin? A lot of people. How many know the actual stories behind him? More than a handful because people go "this seems like something cool lets look into it." How many WOULD know about it if it werent for him being displayed in various media? Probably like 6 historians who specialize in dead cultures. Cultural segregation is the way cultures die out and get forgotten to time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cakesphere

It's obvious that OP and friends don't understand nor want to understand what the people with other viewpoints think. Can we all go to bed yet?

---

Exactly. You even have one activist claiming immediately that they aren't reading the previous pages before they start their ill-informed crusade; if they had then they might have been able to take a step back and think for a moment.

But no, instead they (and the OP) either ignore the previous comments with points or cherry pick the bad ones to further their "you are racist" attempts. The irony in their comments about "educate yourself" and such is hilarious. And then there's the claim that once the OP mentioned harassment that people made fun, which from what I've been reading (and unlike them I have been reading this thread) didn't happen.

I hope this thread remains, instead of being deleted - it stands as a prime example of how illogical and one-sided they truly are.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shofie

They are earned through acts of heroism and putting them in the game where player characters can access them at all is trampling all over Native Americans.

---

This has PROBABLY been brought up somewhere in these 59 pages, but I'd like to note, if these war bonnets are earned through acts of heroism, then our fictional characters have earned the fictional equivalents hundreds of times over...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LineageRazor

This has PROBABLY been brought up somewhere in these 59 pages, but I'd like to note, if these war bonnets are earned through acts of heroism, then our fictional characters have earned the fictional equivalents hundreds of times over...

---

I do not agree. Our characters might be fictional, but time and dedication it requiers, effort and skill we put in - they all are very real to me. And after killing one more wannabe god I consider myself a hero. So all players who have completed 2.0 at least well deserve those war bonnets in real life too.

All of this thread reminds me of The Florida State University debacle. FSU's known as the Seminoles, their mascot is a Seminole Chief. There were people a few years back protesting the universities use of the Seminole chief, calling it racist and disrespectful. (sound familiar yet?) That is until the actual Seminole Tribe stepped up and said that they liked the portrayal and saw it as a positive thing. You see, back when the school made the Chief their mascot, school officials actually worked with the Seminole Tribe to design a tastful Seminole Chief. Yet the protesters never bothered doing their research and assumed it was racist. And you know what they about ASS-U-ME!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Draka

Except they already admitted they were wrong given that someone properly explained it to them clearly on tumblr and here on the OF as opposed to invoking pack mentality and ripping into OP for 60 pages which does nothing to any argument.

Thread should be closed as it provides nothing worthwhile.

---

I know that. The comment was for the other person who came in later on to pick up the baton. The '(and the OP)' part was because it was exactly what they did, just because they later realized, despite the many posts before, doesn't mean they are exempt from being included in examples of what is wrong with this type of thing. I also don't give a damn about the "pack", everyone could be in favour of removing it and I'd still post the same things I did because the whole thing is absurd and a wrongly fuelled request.

Yes, it should be locked.

I have no ill will towards the native culture. But no matter what game youre talking about or what medium. Unless the artist in question is actually saying something in poor taste or hurting anyone then it's not a real problem. It's a perceived problem. And that's a problem for the individual, not the collective. Not saying that you can't be offended, just saying that it's not everyone else's responsibility to change do to a subjective issue perceived by the minority.

As a member of the Muscogee, or creek, tribe, I have to say this.

My cultural heritage is not cute at all, I'd rather die than dress up my character in that crap.

Find a culture with long one piece dresses and appropriate them ASAP.

Thanks.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alysanne

As a member of the Muscogee, or creek, tribe, I have to say this.

My cultural heritage is not cute at all, I'd rather die than dress up my character in that crap.

Find a culture with long one piece dresses and appropriate them ASAP.

Thanks.

---

Honestly, if it bothers you that much, take a stand against people who make a business out of selling war bonnets.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/3816193...&ul_noapp=true

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Airget

Honestly, if it bothers you that much, take a stand against people who make a business out of selling war bonnets.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/3816193...&ul_noapp=true

---

Wow, 350? Those are pretty expensive, they're not even vintage or authentic. :|

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Airget

Honestly, if it bothers you that much, take a stand against people who make a business out of selling war bonnets.

---

you know, square actually IS selling a product here. and i can understand when people say square should not make profit with the culture of the native americans. but NOBODY has said this so far...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Airget

Honestly, if it bothers you that much, take a stand against people who make a business out of selling war bonnets.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/3816193...&ul_noapp=true

---

I'm not bothered even a scintilla, the joy of capitalism is that people are free to make whatever crap they want and other people are free to spend their money on it.

I'm wondering if you completely missed the point of what I said.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shofie

I'll try to keep this as succinct as possible.

War bonnets are extremely sensitive cultural items that are generally "restricted" items. That is, it is offensive for non-Native Americans to wear them, or anyone to wear them who hasn't earned the right to do so.

They are earned through acts of heroism and putting them in the game where player characters can access them at all is trampling all over Native Americans.

Native American cultural attire is not a costume.

Especiallythe war bonnets.

Please consider removing the war bonnet from the upcoming patch. It is deeply offensive and racist to include it.

Thank you.

---

In some ways I can understand what you are saying, BUT cultural appropriation DOES NOT belong in a game. Especially one titled "Final Fantasy." Furthermore! It's nobodies business what gender or ethnicity you are behind your character unless you make it their business.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mola

snup

---

Aye, I'm neutral too; I'm also surprised that gif didn't show up sooner. I'm not even American and only know about that commercial via a Black-American Youtube blogger, haha.

(On a side note, my Firefox dictionary is slightly racist o.O It tried to correct 'Black-American' to Anti-American, wtf?)

I posted earlier on this thread, and it was entirely out of a kneejerk response. So, after taking a bit of time to think about things I’ve come to a realization. Now, first of all, I’d like to thank Masquerade in his posts - recognizing how frustrating it was for the few native peoples who were not recognized when saying this was a problem for them.

But, ultimately, after doing some thinking I’ve come to realize that the implementation of this headdress really doesn’t matter. Now, I personally dislike it. I would not be sad if this outfit was removed from the game - but, ultimately, it doesn’t matter in the grand scheme of things. Maybe that’s an unpopular opinion - or makes me apathetic. But, when you look at issues like the current pipeline controversy in America - perhaps this attention should be spent there. (Seriously, they need food, water, medical supplies - not to mention extensive legal services. Check it out.)

There have been some things said which are quite callous. I’d like to take the time -- to offer, as some people have requested, a bit of information regarding headdresses as a whole - not just war bonnets, and why Indigenous peoples can possibly be frustrated by this sort of thing.

I’m going to talk about a few things that are not quite popular to talk about. Keep in mind, when I speak about these things - I am not devaluing the struggles of other Indigenous peoples, nor minority groups. I am talking about North American Indigenous peoples. I’m trying to do my best here in keeping it relatively simple. Not everyone is North American here, I’m assuming.

The war bonnet specifically is a link to the Creator. It’s meant to reward not only heroism, but honor them in the eyes of the Creator. Specifically, the war bonnet is comprised of eagle feathers - as the eagle is seen as the closest to the Creator. It’s used extensively by the Indigenous peoples in current day Canada and the United States. Veterans wear them, honored activists wear them and quite often elders who have fought for Indigenous rights. These feathers -can- be painted. It’s usually the more northern styles that end up decorating the feathers with dust or earth-based paints.

Headdresses, while not necessarily created from eagle feathers, sometimes are. They’re made as an achievement for our people. Same people can wear them - but they’re most often used in ceremonies. They are honored extensively through ceremonially dance -- as a matter of fact, it’s a massive deal if a feather were to fall from your headdress, for example. The entire dance ‘circle’ will come together and raise it with a blessing. They are still spiritual thing.

They weren’t worn out of ceremony. The headdress is basically an entirely ceremonial thing. Feathers, especially eagle feathers, were used. Braided into your hair, mostly. Youth earn feathers for a number of thing - for passing trials to become a man, and to now in modern day for graduating college, or achieving something. They’re meant to represent your growth. Now, however, this practice is obviously falling to the wayside.

To respond to inquiries; no, this is not a war bonnet exactly. This is a caricature of one. The flashy green colors and bone-shield breastplate are clearly an attempt to make a Plains People’s attire. It’s stolen from cartoons and old hollywood media - which were pretty non-discriminatory. Most ‘Indian’ things you will see in media today -is- a mixture of Plains people and River people attire. Recognize that it’s pretty much a cartoon inspiration. Ever see those wooden statues of the Native American man at a casino? Ever think about how much they resemble this set?

Now for the second part. Why does this matter?

It matters for some people for varying reasons. Some people are okay with it, and that’s their viewpoint. Many people are sensitive about it because of the levels of cultural appropriation that Indigenous peoples are facing. I could never fault the OP for posting this initially. I think it was well-intentioned. I thank them for it, personally.

Indigenous peoples in North America, upon Early Contact, suffered a 88 - 93% death rate. This is the most broad and acceptable figure from most scholarly sources. This was an extinction level event for the Indigenous peoples from disease, invasive procedures by the colonists. By around the end of the 19th century, there were around 250k Indigenous peoples remaining the United States. The numbers have not risen much in comparison to the death rate.

The reservation systems were created, residential schools made to then ‘breed out the indian’. Government policies turned to self-containment and control of the Indigenous peoples. Lands were seized despite treaties made by the governments.

Post-colonialism is something that happens today. We’ve moved on from the past, sure, but there is always an aura of conquest in regards to Indigenous relations with the majority of society. They are seen as the taxpayer’s burden (which is entirely false propaganda made centuries ago by a disgruntled politician), and generally ignored in terms of self-governance.

There is little media presence on issues such as governance, basic services, drug issues, woman who have been missing and murdered or police brutality. All this leads to a general frustration amongst the population - especially those unlucky enough to not be able to leave the reservation, or start well financially.

This creates a sense of resentment and frustration. When faced with something as simple as cultural appropriation - it gets difficult to let it pass, or not have -some- feelings about it. Some might think it’s great that our culture gets the light, sure. But some might dislike it.

My best advice? Someone said it earlier. Contact an organization that you can offer aid to, if you are keen on helping. Great. If not? Please, just be aware. It doesn’t take long for you understand -- or at least understand.

I genuinely hope this post helps people unfamiliar with it understand frustration, or attitudes taken by Indigenous peoples.

#Vantiles

Im glad you change your opinion after thinkin. In my point of view this isn't racist or disrespectful, is a way to start takin interest in another cultures, thanks to this headdress and you now morepeople know about this culture and in my opinion this its whats important.

My signature already say it but again , sorry for my bad english

im a native, and i want a head dress.

i also want a war call emote and stick games

#Vantiles

Thing is most of what you wrote I never knew about. So isn't having this item a good thing, as now it brings attention to issues like you described and reminds people what happened in the past. Otherwise in the end people forget what happened and history could be repeated with another race, tribe etc.

Greetings, all!

This thread will be getting cleaned up to focus on the discussion that was raised and remove posts found to be in violation of the policies. While this is being done, the thread will be closed. Once we have fully evaluated the thread and what remains, as well as the potential of further discussion to be productive, we will make a decision on if the thread should be reopened. Thank you for your understanding and patience while we work on this.

LGM Enkrateia

Greetings, everyone!

We've completed cleaning up the thread to make it much more focused on the original topic of conversation. This meant removing a number of posts, such as:

• Requests in the thread to close the thread. For future reference, making a report on the thread is a much more effective means of accomplishing this in the future.
• Posts that did not contribute to the discussion, including those that were sarcastic, those noting they were there to watch, and an enjoyable collection to images, both animated and not.
• Requests to add other types of gear to the game, since that was not on topic.
• An interesting sidetrack about Balmung.

On review of the thread, including the topics discussed and how it has progressed, we will not be unlocking the thread. There were a variety of posts covering multiple aspects of the discussion; however, the discussion itself had become circular, and further discussion does not seem like it would yield new points of view or results. I have made sure to bring this discussion, including posts and ideas that may have been removed during cleanup, to the Community team's attention, so they can relay your thoughts on the matter.

Thank you for your patience in this matter, and please remember to be respectful to one another in the forums in the future, since this can help to generate more productive discussions (and avoid account actions for violations of the rules).

LGM Enkrateia