CNJ = WHM and THM = BLM

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Originally Posted by Estellios

We can't lock our own threads can we? You have grown as a person and moved on, OP. Thus the story should end.

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lmao, it was my stance from the beginning. I knew both were a strong possibility, so it was 50/50. I do wish I could lock this, because people just came in all trolly and shiz.

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Originally Posted by Coglin

Again your making ASSumptions, and claiming it makes no sense because you were mistaken. Every other spell thay have besides the 10 % you mention are WHM spells.....how does that 10% deem them BLM ?

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Someone should check their math skills. CNJ, if you're going based on percentages, has 52 spells total. 34 of them are traditional BLM spells, 18 are traditional WHM spells. That means 65% of CNJ spells are BLM ones, 35% are WHM spells. 65>35. I'm not saying this out of denial either, just thought you should be aware of your mistake.

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Originally Posted by Albio

Someone should check their math skills. CNJ, if you're going based on percentages, has 52 spells total. 34 of them are traditional BLM spells, 18 are traditional WHM spells. That means 65% of CNJ spells are BLM ones, 35% are WHM spells. 65>35. I'm not saying this out of denial either, just thought you should be aware of your mistake.

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Thats where you appear to be mistaken. they may have been BLM spells in FFXI, but they are not traditional throughout the entire series. only 12 are acrually traditional BLM.......this has been stated over the weeks by several poster other then myself. perhaps it is your math that needs checking? Perhaps some folks need to realize the franchise goes well beyond FFXI.

So actually its 23%, my mistake.

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Originally Posted by Coglin

Thats where you appear to be mistaken. they may have been BLM spells in FFXI, but they are not traditional throughout the entire series. only 12 are acrually traditional BLM.......this has been stated over the weeks by several poster other then myself. perhaps it is your math that needs checking? Perhaps some folks need to realize the franchise goes well beyond FFXI.

So actually its 23%, my mistake.

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Fire Aero Water Blizzard Stone Thunder
Fire II Aero II Water II Blizzard II Stone II Thunder II
Flare Tornado Flood Freeze Quake Burst

Add to those:
Repose
Sleep
Burn Choke Drown Frost Rasp Shock
Burn II Choke II Drown II Frost II Rasp II Shock II

I usually lump in Profundity, Purge I/II, and Trance Chant for good measure.

I don't know what you're arguing here or why. Either of you. But please stop? This is ridiculous bickering.

PLEASE change CONJURER to ACOLYTE if you gonna make CONJURER to WHITE MAGE. Makes more sense :).

scourge and banish are the thm nukes, both of which are blm spells in the original FF and FFII

FFIII WHM has some elemental nukes. (aero.....whatnot)

FF IV both the BLM and WHMcharacter get cure and elementals.

FFV mage classes can level spells of the other mage classes.

FF VI there is little difference as various characters an learn just about every spell, but they have different learn rates depending on the spell.

FFVII the materia you arm adds spells to your list of I recall correctly.

in a few of the games whm has the astral 3 elements and blm has the umbral 3.

the list goes on and on ............


its primarily in xi. that it really gets to a point where spells and nukes are more class/job specific.

so stop claiing that all these elemental nukes are stricktly blm class spells......to add, in a large portion of the series, so many charactera have spells from multiple jobs that the line gets very hazy.

if you look through the series game by game....this claim of elemental nukes being strickly blm becomes clearly a crock of crud.

the only true consistancy of spells listed in almost every game is cure, protect, and shell as white magic abilities.

the elemental nukes do 'tend' to be more associated with black magic but its only consistant in the 3 umbrul spells per game (which does vary from game to game)

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Originally Posted by Coglin

scourge and banish are the thm nukes, both of which are blm spells in the original FF and FFII

FFIII WHM has some elemental nukes. (aero.....whatnot)

FF IV both the BLM and WHMcharacter get cure and elementals.

FFV mage classes can level spells of the other mage classes.

FF VI there is little difference as various characters an learn just about every spell, but they have different learn rates depending on the spell.

FFVII the materia you arm adds spells to your list of I recall correctly.

in a few of the games whm has the astral 3 elements and blm has the umbral 3.

the list goes on and on ............


its primarily in xi. that it really gets to a point where spells and nukes are more class/job specific.

so stop claiing that all these elemental nukes are stricktly blm class spells......to add, in a large portion of the series, so many charactera have spells from multiple jobs that the line gets very hazy.

if you look through the series game by game....this claim of elemental nukes being strickly blm becomes clearly a crock of crud.

the only true consistancy of spells listed in almost every game is cure, protect, and shell as white magic abilities.

the elemental nukes do 'tend' to be more associated with black magic but its only consistant in the 3 umbrul spells per game (which does vary from game to game)

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They're not "Black Mage Spells". They're Black Magic.

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Originally Posted by Answa

They're not "Black Mage Spells". They're Black Magic.

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exactly...tha was why i called it foolish for folks to base there assumption that it defined con as blm.

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Originally Posted by Coglin

exactly...tha was why i called it foolish for folks to base there assumption that it defined con as blm.

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Nobody really cares anymore. People are just defending their previous stances. I thought there was a strong indication that CNJ would be BLM. Others THM. THM won. The end.

Please stop this.

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Originally Posted by Answa

Nobody really cares anymore. People are just defending their previous stances. I thought there was a strong indication that CNJ would be BLM. Others THM. THM won. The end.

Please stop this.

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Okay guy, thats cool ,you don't care, then stop trolling every post i make about it.

you may not care, but that doesn't mean all of us have to stop caring. i explained this for weeks and weeks about the other games outside of ffxi and now I am simply resupplying fact of the series.....if you are unhappy with thos fact.....stop posting.

I was hoping for CNJ being BLM, but after 1.18, Curaga, Paralyna etc etc, for me, it was a given CNJ is WHM.

And you know what?

I'll adapt. :D Being a WHM in a party has its own advantages. And I can still level THM anyway. I see no problem here.

Really? Is this so shocking?

CNJ = Cure, Cure II, Curaga II, Protect, Shell, Stoneskin, Rebirth, Poisona, etc.

THM = Slow, Bio, Bind, Drain, Poison, Absorb spells, etc.

Wasn't this fairly obvious for awhile? o.o;

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Originally Posted by KyanaSkye

Really? Is this so shocking?

CNJ = Cure, Cure II, Curaga II, Protect, Shell, Stoneskin, Rebirth, Poisona, etc.

THM = Slow, Bio, Bind, Drain, Poison, Absorb spells, etc.

Wasn't this fairly obvious for awhile? o.o;

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It was as obvious one way as it was the other. Lore-wise or otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Answa

It was as obvious one way as it was the other. Lore-wise or otherwise.

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Game mechanics put it up in the air with CNJ having elemental nukes.

The lore was straight forward.

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Originally Posted by Rhomagus

Game mechanics put it up in the air with CNJ having elemental nukes.

The lore was straight forward.

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I agree and disagree. It's all in the mindset. We all saw what we wanted to see. Some of us were correct, some not.

I called it at launch, I said that cnj would end up being a wtm like class and i was right because fo it having cure,no hp taking up The classic wtm spell.

I called up Yoshi and he explained how they chose the jobs for conjurer and thumbmage. They took out this coin, ya a coin, it was silver. Then they flipped the coin in the air, about 6 feet up. Finally Wada yelled tay-alls tay-alls tay-alls in a loud grunt, pushing, pain filled voice.

And that is how Con became Whm and Thumb become Blum.

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Originally Posted by KyanaSkye

Really? Is this so shocking?

CNJ = Cure, Cure II, Curaga II, Protect, Shell, Stoneskin, Rebirth, Poisona, etc.

THM = Slow, Bio, Bind, Drain, Poison, Absorb spells, etc.

Wasn't this fairly obvious for awhile? o.o;

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Yes after 1.18 only a real crazy person would think CNJ would still be BLM. I mean they got raise spells and cureaga spells...

I'm not saying it was 100% straightforward that CNJ was WHM and THM was BLM. I agree that CNJ having the nukes could have confused people and made it look like it could go either way. I guess my thought was that CNJ wouldn't have been able to solo without having the nukes and that's why they had it, but otherwise the spells were overwhelmingly WHM-like. It is odd for BLM to not have elemental nukes natively.

THM reminds me more of SCH really, with the mix of a few WHM spells, Dia, Banish, Resurrect, Sacrifice, but the other spells where mainly enfeebling / dark spells, making it the more obvious guess for BLM.

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Originally Posted by KyanaSkye

I'm not saying it was 100% straightforward that CNJ was WHM and THM was BLM. I agree that CNJ having the nukes could have confused people and made it look like it could go either way. I guess my thought was that CNJ wouldn't have been able to solo without having the nukes and that's why they had it, but otherwise the spells were overwhelmingly WHM-like. It is odd for BLM to not have elemental nukes natively.

THM reminds me more of SCH really, with the mix of a few WHM spells, Dia, Banish, Resurrect, Sacrifice, but the other spells where mainly enfeebling / dark spells, making it the more obvious guess for BLM.

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Conjurer having nukes is because this game was designed to not have specific roles. This is just one of many bumps in the road in trying to attach specific roles to a game that was not meant to have them.

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Originally Posted by Answa

It was as obvious one way as it was the other. Lore-wise or otherwise.

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You are correct it has been ovious from even before games release.

As holy dragoon pointed out this lore was on the SE page since pre-release.

For those who are shocked by this announcement... you shouldn't be honestly. Info taken from http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/#/game...rysystem/magic

Thaumaturge
Death is Only the Beginning

In the hands of a skilled practitioner, thaumaturgy can be a force of terrifying destruction. At the heart of this school of magic lies the ability to call forth and command the latent aether within oneself through deep introspection.


Conjurer
In One’s Element

Conjury calls upon elemental forces present in nature and concentrates them to a potency at which spells can be weaved. Through practiced meditation on the essences of creation, conjurers draw forth and absorb aether from their immediate surroundings.

So by your quoted statement here, you agree that we all logically knew CON=WHM and THM=BLM since before even release.

Lots of... heated discussion going on up in 'ere. While the black and white "this class will be this job" was stated on the recent LIVE broadcast, the more in-depth class adjustment news will be posted in the coming days, so I hope that everyone is looking forward to it!

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Originally Posted by Bayohne

Lots of... heated discussion going on up in 'ere. While the black and white "this class will be this job" was stated on the recent LIVE broadcast, the more in-depth class adjustment news will be posted in the coming days, so I hope that everyone is looking forward to it!

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My guess is a lot of the abilities on CON and THM will be switched around.

I'll just wait patiently for the forum to explode when they wake up to find out THM is getting all the nukes and CON will be considerably weaker.

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Originally Posted by Bayohne

Lots of... heated discussion going on up in 'ere. While the black and white "this class will be this job" was stated on the recent LIVE broadcast, the more in-depth class adjustment news will be posted in the coming days, so I hope that everyone is looking forward to it!

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With bated breath.

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Originally Posted by Answa

I'm glad you asked! Here's the original vid (skip to 5:40 for that particular skit).

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OMG WTF LOLOL! xD

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Originally Posted by Denmo

My guess is a lot of the abilities on CON and THM will be switched around.

I'll just wait patiently for the forum to explode when they wake up to find out THM is getting all the nukes and CON will be considerably weaker.

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I wouldn't explode persay, but I wouldn't be that happy about it. When I play conjurer, I feel like I'm playing Aeris. On top of that, every mmo under the sun has the "weak healer" and the "massively powered mage". I really like that conjurer breaks that mold, and that it uses elemental magics.

I haven't leveled THM at all as I wasn't very interested in it, so I wouldn't be able to mix the abilities for a while. But even if I do, it stands to reason that the abilities would be weaker. :(

I guess it really just depends on what they do and how weak they make it if so. No point in "exploding" before they officially anounce anything. :p

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Originally Posted by Chezen

I wouldn't explode persay, but I wouldn't be that happy about it. When I play conjurer, I feel like I'm playing Aeris. On top of that, every mmo under the sun has the "weak healer" and the "massively powered mage". I really like that conjurer breaks that mold, and that it uses elemental magics.

I haven't leveled THM at all as I wasn't very interested in it, so I wouldn't be able to mix the abilities for a while. But even if I do, it stands to reason that the abilities would be weaker. :(

I guess it really just depends on what they do and how weak they make it if so. No point in "exploding" before they officially anounce anything. :p

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The reason you and many other players didn't like THM was because of how weak it's been. I understand a balance between each job is critical, but it makes no sense for the job that worships Death and Destruction to be weaker in nuking than a job that worships life and harmony.

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Originally Posted by Bayohne

Lots of... heated discussion going on up in 'ere. While the black and white "this class will be this job" was stated on the recent LIVE broadcast, the more in-depth class adjustment news will be posted in the coming days, so I hope that everyone is looking forward to it!

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Tease Bayohne Tease

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Originally Posted by Denmo

The reason you and many other players didn't like THM was because of how weak it's been. I understand a balance between each job is critical, but it makes no sense for the job that worships Death and Destruction to be weaker in nuking than a job that worships life and harmony.

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They don't worship death and destruction though. They are priests to the twin gods Nald and Thal who preside over the realm over life and the afterlife. To equate that with evil and death is like saying the Egyptians were evil for revering Ra.

What most of you don't understand, or refuse to, is that Thaumaturges come in two sects. Neither one is evil, per se, they just have different world views because of which of the twin gods' temples they have decided to serve. It's like all the sects of Christianity. Catholics, Protestants, whatever... They are all Christians, but they do things different, and they all think the rest are wrong. It's the exact same thing with THMs. SE made a big mistake only exposing us to one side of the THM experience. It has wrongly shaded people's perception of what a Thaumaturge really is.

Conjurers revere one thing, the elementals. Not life, not a tree stump as someone mentioned out in left field, and not harmony.

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Originally Posted by Wynn

They don't worship death and destruction though. They are priests to the twin gods Nald and Thal who preside over the realm over life and the afterlife. To equate that with evil and death is like saying the Egyptians were evil for revering Ra.

What most of you don't understand, or refuse to, is that Thaumaturges come in two sects. Neither one is evil, per se, they just have different world views because of which of the twin gods' temples they have decided to serve. It's like all the sects of Christianity. Catholics, Protestants, whatever... They are all Christians, but they do things different, and they all think the rest are wrong. It's the exact same thing with THMs. SE made a big mistake only exposing us to one side of the THM experience. It has wrongly shaded people's perception of what a Thaumaturge really is.

Conjurers revere one thing, the elementals. Not life, not a tree stump as someone mentioned out in left field, and not harmony.

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In the none THM lore including the main scenario everyone thinks the thurmaturges secretly practice necromancy, however they deny it which they would, if they do, then they do worship death, i'm just throwing this out there i havent done the thm story so i cant comment on what happens there.

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Originally Posted by Delsus

In the none THM lore including the main scenario everyone thinks the thurmaturges secretly practice necromancy, however they deny it which they would, if they do, then they do worship death, i'm just throwing this out there i havent done the thm story so i cant comment on what happens there.

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Practicing necromancy does not mean worshiping death. The story deals with bringing the dead back to life. Well then, I guess conjurers practice necromancy for using the raise spell, worship death, and are evil.

1.20 better have lore changes too, just sayin. For those of you who only care about the abilities the two have, and not the lore, someone can just as easily say eff the abilities, I only care about the lore. THM weren't all good, but we weren't all bad, we're astral/umbral, with raising the dead in our lore, now that leads some to necromancy but in a fantasy game you could easily say raising is necromancy in sorts. For conj all three of their class quests were about the elementals in some sort or more so about the "twelveswood" if you rip off the nukes from conj, you killed there class quests, waste of effing time. I don't know if its a male thing (my male friends skip cutscenes galore and then ask me why i know about the lore), but as a female I don't skip cutscenes, and I read the lore, and i get personally tired of this forum being driven by the ideas that abilities are everything and lore is to skipped. If in 2.0 they change lore I can understand and I'll be happy to have to new stuff to discover, but until then we're dealing with bogus lore that doesn't mean crap and was a waste of my time reading, and it wasn't our fault, the devs made it that way and pretty much said "eff whoever wrote that, we wasted our time paying them, battle over lore always lolz, most of the people who play this game skip cutscenes they won't know"

The devs act like I care about class adjustments, when I care about the lore. Giving nukes to thm doesn't fix that problem, those nukes are crappy anyway compared to scourge and banish! They should of at least told us "the lore or thm and cnj, we're thinking about scrapping that, starting it over in 2.0, so for now we're giving thm blm, and cnj whm, because that's how the lore will look in 2.0", i would of been ok with that. Instead we get no information, just the possibility that in 2.0 the lore will be drastically changed that we're pulling out of our butts, but is based on logic. (rare things pulled out of our butts are based on logic, relish this)

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Conjurers revere one thing, the elementals. Not life, not a tree stump as someone mentioned out in left field, and not harmony.

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They live in a forest. The forest is an ecosystem. The main story for starting in Gridania always speaks about upsetting the elements. Thus the analogy to finding a balance and harmony with the forest.

Last I checked, burning a tree was a bad thing. Or did you not play that mission?

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They are priests to the twin gods Nald and Thal who preside over the realm over life and the afterlife.

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What good is a WHM who only tries to help you when you're already dead?


BUT

Debating this is pointless, as it's already been stated who's going to be what.

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Originally Posted by Wynn

Practicing necromancy does not mean worshiping death. The story deals with bringing the dead back to life. Well then, I guess conjurers practice necromancy for using the raise spell, worship death, and are evil.

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That would work but raise doesnt cure death, it brings you out of the Knocked out status, KO =/= Death, its just the term players use.

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Originally Posted by Denmo

My guess is a lot of the abilities on CON and THM will be switched around.

I'll just wait patiently for the forum to explode when they wake up to find out THM is getting all the nukes and CON will be considerably weaker.

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they just become a healer which should have been from the start no weaker but just better at healing i bet.

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Originally Posted by Denmo

Last I checked, burning a tree was a bad thing. Or did you not play that mission?

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Yes, I played it. And yes, there was a tree burning in the Gridania storyline and it was bad because it pisses off the elementals when you burn their homes. However it had nothing to do with the conjurer class and has nothing to do with anything in this discussion.

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Originally Posted by Denmo

What good is a WHM who only tries to help you when you're already dead?

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See, you still don't understand. First of all, what the THMs offer is security in the here and now and also in the afterlife. Want to make sure your life is good and you are well and rich? Go make an offering to Nald. Want to make sure your afterlife is comfy, cozy, and full of heavenly bliss? Make an offering to Thal.

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Originally Posted by Denmo

Debating this is pointless, as it's already been stated who's going to be what.

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Yes, that is true, but that doesn't make you any less wrong.

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Originally Posted by Delsus

That would work but raise doesnt cure death, it brings you out of the Knocked out status, KO =/= Death, its just the term players use.

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Well now we're just arguing semantics, unless you really believe some big nasty raptor is going to knock you out instead of just eat you.

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Originally Posted by Denmo

The reason you and many other players didn't like THM was because of how weak it's been. I understand a balance between each job is critical, but it makes no sense for the job that worships Death and Destruction to be weaker in nuking than a job that worships life and harmony.

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Snicker. :)

I don't play THM because it has death elements. I don't like death elements. But I do like having more utility than just healing in a healer or any other support. I'm a support-type player. I like being able to temporarily cover any team-mates when an emergency occurs, however way possible. It might be healing, taking hate, killing the mob fast, or any other method I can come up with depending on the class I am playing.

In any case, CON and THM shouldn't really be all that much weaker one over the other anyway, being classes. In white mage and black mage, there I would expect to see a difference, since they are meant to specialize in something.

I also disagree that life should be "weaker" than death. :p I suppose maybe you might miss the point of why I love Aeris so much.^^

I don't mean to sound rude, but please don't think you know why I or anyone else plays what they play. Not everyone is the same. ;)

here's my 2cent...

I couldnt care less since i have both classes maxed out, lol.
Id suggest the simple way and level both while you still can.

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Originally Posted by Laughlyn

here's my 2cent...

I couldnt care less since i have both classes maxed out, lol.
Id suggest the simple way and level both while you still can.

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Lol, perhaps I should. :)

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Originally Posted by Chezen

Lol, perhaps I should. :)

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Oh sorry, lol ... wasnt actually meant @ anyone besides the thread title i guess. :P