[SPOILERS] Revelations from Patch 3.3

Definitely think what we've been doing is safe, as we're not wielding the auracite. But, if you noticed,

Regula did have Servant Enkindle as ability.. would that mean he, and his legion is developing methods to implement the arts of summoner in magitek? Without a natural ability to control aether, they can't attune to primal aether waves like we can, so that means it has to be stored in a way.. perhaps using auracite?
Also.. what thing was in Regula's weapon? If that was a primal's essence...

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Originally Posted by Vulcwen

Definitely think what we've been doing is safe, as we're not wielding the auracite. But, if you noticed,

Regula did have Servant Enkindle as ability.. would that mean he, and his legion is developing methods to implement the arts of summoner in magitek? Without a natural ability to control aether, they can't attune to primal aether waves like we can, so that means it has to be stored in a way.. perhaps using auracite?
Also.. what thing was in Regula's weapon? If that was a primal's essence...

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I wondered that too. That was a rather strange thing he whipped out. Perhaps Garlemald has been experimenting themselves. Hell, that could be a reason for us going to Garlemald in a future expac.

Well, if Eorzeans were the ones who couldn't use magic I'm pretty sure they would be experimenting with ways to get around that too. Not to mention a lot of the potential power(s) that the Warrior of Light and certain other Eorzeans wield is pretty dubious too - such as what WAR, SMN, BLK, WHM and DRK wield. Though in each case they're currently fairly rare.

Personally I'm hoping that Garlemald makes some pretty major advances and it becomes a necessity for the Warrior of Light to rely upon that technology at some point in the story to deal with a greater threat. It doesn't even have to happen directly - just indirectly, much like how Shinra in FF7 were responsible for taking out a Weapon and opening up the path to Sephiroth at the end of the game. Without that it's very likely that FF7 would have ended very differently and with Sephiroth/Jenova winning.

I was under the impression that Reglua's

Ceruleum Servant was primarily a reference to Tiger, Power, Machine, and Magic from the pre-Kefka Statue of the Gods. Ceruleum is basically the "crude oil" of aetherial substances, and if magitek can shape it into a big flying X, I suppose magitek can shape it into a brooding tiger. But I'm looking forward to seeing what it can do...

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Well, if Eorzeans were the ones who couldn't use magic I'm pretty sure they would be experimenting with ways to get around that too. Not to mention a lot of the potential power(s) that the Warrior of Light and certain other Eorzeans wield is pretty dubious too - such as what WAR, SMN, BLK, WHM and DRK wield. Though in each case they're currently fairly rare.

Personally I'm hoping that Garlemald makes some pretty major advances and it becomes a necessity for the Warrior of Light to rely upon that technology at some point in the story to deal with a greater threat. It doesn't even have to happen directly - just indirectly, much like how Shinra in FF7 were responsible for taking out a Weapon and opening up the path to Sephiroth at the end of the game. Without that it's very likely that FF7 would have ended very differently and with Sephiroth/Jenova winning.

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Im more specifically talking about Garlemald doing their own experiments with containing and using primals like the Allagans did. Don't get me wrong. Im not arguing an 'all things Garlemald do are evil'. While he isn't working for Garlemald, we still are effectively using Garlean expertise and technology whenever we get help from Cid. Garlemald is still the most technologically advanced nation we know of so I imagine that one way or another we will end up using their stuff again even if it ends up being us stealing from them.

What I'm basically doing is looking at ways we could end up going to Garlemald. There has to be an antagonist and with the strength and breath of power Garlemald holds its likely that if we are visiting Garlemald that there are elements within Garlemald that might be a threat. Say for example the Uncle who got beaten for the throne gains control over a group of Garlean scientists that have figured out how to power magitech with imprisoned primals and draw upon that primal energy as a weapon. Suddenly he has a potential means to win a fight for the throne. However the primal energy starts seeping out and corrupting the people using the tech. Suddenly we have reason not only to go to Garlemald but to potentially work with Garleans who oppose said uncle politically and who see the technology as flawed and dangerous.

I would also say that comparing Garlemald to Shinra might not be the best option. Shinra was still an antagonist for the lifespan of FF7 and most of the problems in that game were due to actions carried out by their people. When we do finally see them truly move out of the antagonist role they have fallen a very long way and Rufus is both humbled and regretful of the actions of his company.

Anyway, I was really just speculating, rather baselessly, on the potential implications of Regula's weapon.:P I'm currently assuming that the Garlean presence in this story will have some future payoff rather them just harassing us while we put down the 3 Warring Triad primals.

how is burning crude aether not a bad thing, when obviously hydaleyn is dying from it?

so a primal is summoned, we kill it and its aether goes back to the lifestream. bad for hydaelyn sure. but its returned. Magiteck and allagan technologies? and replicas of said allagan technologies? Are they good for hydalyaen? I dont really think so at all
which could explain why she is so weakened she had to eat minfilia's essence just to speak with us

again what really differentiates hydylaen from zodiark at this point? when they both need aether pools to survive? Or does zodiark not?(voidsent sh**)

at some point maybe the rejoining will have to happen. if the current point is ravaging hydalyn so bad

I don't think Ceruleum is necessarily a problem. Certainly Hydaelyn has never raised it as an issue with us. Even the city states use Ceruleum. Ishgard ignite their dragonslayer spears with it to inflict additional damage on the target. The Airships that are used between the city states use Ceruleum. Regardless Hydealyn has never made an issue of it and we have frequently used it ourselves. Primals on the other hand are constantly being brought up as a huge red flag. Regardless of what Ceruleum is, the impact doesn't seem particularly severe. It seems very much like its just like a form of liquid crystal.

As for what differentiates Hydealyn and Zodiark, all we really know for certain is the actions of their agents. Zodiark's minions constantly spread chaos, conflict and harm wherever they go and seem to hold mortals in contempt. For our characters perspective that's an evil thing. The Rejoining is something we aren't clear on either but most of what we have seen so far suggests it's not likely to be pleasant for the people living on Hydealyn.

Now one thing we can say is the current status quo is off balance and to be fair we have only really have had Hydealyn's side of the story. What she has said however is that her act of casting out Zodiark was due to his attempt to swing the balance in his favour. While she could be lying or just wrong, its worth noting that going by her actions so far she has shown herself to be very benevolent. The only questionable thing she has done is the creation of the Voice and even then Minfilia was a willing participant. Even her orders to us suggest she wants us to make our own choices. Remember her very first words to us?

I think in the end the goal will be to find a way to restore balance between the Light and Dark. However I very much doubt the Ascian's plan is the one we want, particularly since their members have talked about the world drowing in darkness a number of times.

I was going to correct the issue, but did not feel like it - ceruleum is not "crude," so to speak. The ceruleum used as fuel is highly refined; that is, after all, what the Ceruleum Processing Plant in Northern Thanalan is for. We're only able to get into the Praetorium by dumping unrefined (impure) ceruleum into the shield generators protecting it in Castrum Meridianum.

The ceruleum used as fuel is more akin to magical gasoline, though there is impure ceruleum that is like crude oil.

Thanks for the clarification on that but first off , I get that hydaleyn is severely weakened, and is weakening. It seems to me like every Primal we kill she gets weaker. Yet to me, I thought defeating them would reduce the amount of aether shes constantly losing, seems to me that isnt really working so well at all, while everyones freely using ceruleam all the time everywhere and its like "magical gasoline"... Seemingly harmless I suppose. Yet my biggest confusion is probably lack of understanding where the Allag come from. For starters were they from another "star" or inhabited hydaleyn as part of her creation during the split from zodiark? This is what confuses me, cause im not sure if they used ceruleam, but did use primals like batteries. Given their extensive knowledge about aetherial research you would think they wouldnt knowingly use energy sources that would destroy the planet they are living on, or at best, would choose the least dangerous, more efficient route to do so.

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Originally Posted by ADVSS

It seems to me like every Primal we kill she gets weaker.

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No. Every Primal summoned weakens her, and the longer they are "alive" weakens her further (which is also why we're really interested in shutting down Alexander, even though it doesn't seem urgent thanks to the raid release schedule. Its much more likely that there's barely days between clearing each arm). Summoning drains (and corrupts) Aether, and their existence continues it. Slaying them puts an end to the draining and new corruption, and releases Aether back to Hydaleyn, but the corruption remains (look at all the corrupted crystals left from when Bahamut broke free. That's all trapped Aether that cannot return to the Mothercrystal at this point). And any Tempered remain tempered, and start to feed the Primal pre-summon once more.

That makes sense, then, that each time a portion of aether is trapped and cannot be restored back to her

Its worth noting that Hydealyn seems tied to the world's Aether and as that diminishes she has too. She is supposed to be the wellspring of Aether in the world which is why the world shares her name and she is known as the Mothercrystal. Its possible that Aether consumed by Primals doesn't return to the natural cycle of Aether in the world. Regardless its bad for us cause Aether equals life so if the Aether starts to run dry eventually it means the land will die as well.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

Its worth noting that Hydealyn seems tied to the world's Aether and as that diminishes she has too. She is supposed to be the wellspring of Aether in the world which is why the world shares her name and she is known as the Mothercrystal. Its possible that Aether consumed by Primals doesn't return to the natural cycle of Aether in the world. Regardless its bad for us cause Aether equals life so if the Aether starts to run dry eventually it means the land will die as well.

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Which is apparently precisely what happened to Unukalhai's world.

So what about all those crystals/shards/clusters we consume when we craft? Shouldn't that be eating large amounts of aether too?

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Originally Posted by Laili

So what about all those crystals/shards/clusters we consume when we craft? Shouldn't that be eating large amounts of aether too?

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Implicitly, any aether we use is returned to the land. It's recycled, in other words. The same is true of the aether that was constituting a primal's physical form - once it's destroyed, the aether is returned to the land.

However, a primal's physical manifestation literally consumes and corrupts aether so it cannot be returned to the land as well as warp aetherial flow, which is why they cannot be suffered to remain manifested on the physical plane. While we haven't really seen any major evidence of primals actually being harmful to the world, some geography can be attributed to a primal's presence - the SMN 30 quest, for instance, somewhat implies the Sagolii Desert is as it is because of Ifrit's repeated summonings.

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Originally Posted by Dualblade

A: Long ago, you mentioned that 1.0 took place in a “Simpsons Time Bubble.” Are we still in a bubble? Or does time move now that we know Patch = Canon?

KF: It’s still a bubble; you have to have a bubble. There are players joining in Heavensward that are starting at the beginning. The bubble’s just gotten bigger.

While my personal headcanon is that we are indeed atleast 6 years after the Calamity, as far as the story is concerned it is still 5 years. If you have proof against this I will gladly take it so my headcanon no longer needs to have head in it.

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We are talking about game time though. In game time, it's impossible for this bubble to exist, at least not on a permanent basis. Even in 1.0, the Echo flashbacks you see date back to ten years before the events of the game. And then, five more years pass between 1.0 and 2.0. Given that we have two full expansions, it should be about two years that have passed since the beginning of ARR.

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Originally Posted by Draginhikari

I think it kind of plays into the whole theme of Heavensward and what the cycle of anger and revenge does to people. Dragonkind was wrong and sought vengeance killing probably thousands if not more in a 1000 years, during that time in response those people of Ishgard demanded vengeance and round and round it goes. The desire for vengeance against those who wrong you feels right, it feels like justice and like with most emotion it is easily for people to get caught up in them and outwardly hate anything that prevents your feeling of anger form being satisfied. In their eyes the Warrior of Light has gotten in the way of their sanctification of revenge against the dragons who they feel wronged them by revealing the truth. It shows how little truth actually influence how we feel about strong emotional responses.

Maybe I'm just overthinking it.

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No, I think you're right, it does depict what a cycle of and revenge can do to a person. However, in her case it made very little sense because the Ishgardians were losing the war. The dragons could easily pick Ishgard apart if they so chose, so for someone who is seeing the possibility for peace (and therefore the end of her people's massacre) to go "no thanks, I'd rather we continue war for the sake of war so more of our people can die" is a bit... suicidal. Either way, I think we were lucky that she didn't choose to outright poison us. Or maybe we're just immune to poison? :p

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Originally Posted by Berethos

I think she was meant to show how broken Ishgard has become - even in the face of peace, they'd rather get one of the staunchest advocates of peace out of the picture, even if temporarily, and continue to seek vengeance even in a hopeless (for them) situation...

And were still so quick to pick up the cry of "Death to Nidhogg" at the end of 3.2.

Which is why I think even with the reforms that were passed quickly for changes in how the government of Ishgard works at the end of 3.3, you're still looking at years before old hatreds and old habits are truly set aside or overcome, whether it be against dragon or Elezen who happen to be "of that other kind" (commoner versus noble and vice versa).

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Those cries I actually understand. Nidhogg and his brood, at that point in time, were the sole perpetrators of the war, not to mention they were winning their war. As you say though, the girl's idea that they should continue to endlessly fight all dragons would have definitely resulted in nothing other than a hopeless situation for the Ishgardians. Not to mention the fact that it's easy for a person who won't be doing any fighting themselves to be clamoring for continued warfare. It's just empty words when coming from someone like her. To put it simply, she sounded insane, and likely was so with grief. Either way, to me it all goes back to Ishgardians' sense of entitlement. It seems as though no dragons other than Nidhogg's brood are even paying any attention to them anymore except when they're attacked, yet Ishgardians are still going on about how tragic the war is for them. All the while, they let outsiders deal with their problems for them.

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Originally Posted by Bebekurenai

I personally find it very sad that everyone involved in MSQ is ignoring Yda and Papalymo completely. We as players get a hint in maybe two patches about where they might be right now but that's it. Y'Shtola isn't curious about them, Thancred not interested, Alphy too worried about his internal conflicts to even bother...

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I don't think it's a lack of interest as much as it is what the Scions seem to suffer from in general: lack of communication. Thancred and Krile were both back at the Rising Stones between 3.1 and 3.2 but apparently have not asked around to see if there were any news. They all tend to focus intensely on their own work and can sometimes miss the bigger picture.

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Originally Posted by PArcher

Except we're not ignoring them, we just haven't heard of *any* news about their locations. The last thing we know about them was the remains of their linkshells were found in Ul'dah. After that they were untraceable.

That's not that no one isn't looking, or no one cares, we have no leads, no ideas, nothing to go on. Basically, there are more important things we need to be doing than worrying about them for now, or searching aimlessly around Eorzea.

When something is found, you can be sure that lead will be followed with the same zeal as the other Scions.

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If you talked to one of the people in Rising Stones between 3.1 and 3.2, they definitely had an idea that Yda and Papalymo were most likely in Little Ala Mhigo even if there was no absolute confirmation of it. That was definitely a lead to follow, but likely no one thought to ask that person, or they were simply too focused on both finding Minfilia and dealing with Nidhogg to think of much else at the time. Another possibility is that they heard the rumors and figured that as long as Yda and Papalymo were alive, there were more pressing matters to deal with.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

For what it's worth, while Riol (who has been coordinating the search from the Rising Stones) hasn't heard anything since their linkshells were found, Yda and Papalymo have made zero effort to make themselves findable in the first place. They've been holed up with the Ala Mhigan Resistance (a suspiciously well-funded and official-looking faction of it, at that), and Yda is emotionally invested in that pursuit to the point that Papalymo feels he has to remind her that there's a bigger picture.

I assume they'll be part of the portal between the Ishgard and Ala Mhigo story arcs.

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Have you spoken to the Rising Stones NPCs between 3.1 and 3.2 though? There is definitely a suspicion on where they are even if nothing is actually being done about it.

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Originally Posted by Tenkuu

SNIP

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Or, someone is investigating (3.1-3.3 isn't that much time, maybe a week or three); could be nothing has come of the lead (investigated, maybe found something, but nothing that really says anything on its own), still ongoing (scouts haven't returned yet), or it proved to be a dead end.

But, if its just a suspicion based on where their last known location was (potentially a month or more ago) and no real evidence, it may not even be worth looking. Resources can't just be spent on a gut feeling from the "rank-and-file" Scions (heck, *we* can't even waste them on gut feelings...we need something somewhat solid to stand on. Yeah, the Echo breaks it a little, but we don't pull that card on anyone except those who trust our word completely...which isn't that many people)

There's also the possibility that the Scions have found something bad, and just do not want us burdened with the news just yet (maybe evidence that they left for Ala Mihgo, and since we cannot get there at this time...). We're just starting to recover from what happened in the Dragonsong War (they may not know the details, but do know we were at the center of the conflict and have lost a lot in the war), its not unwise to get some rest and have spirits raised a little before something troubling comes around again (which we know will, as long as the Primals and Garleans and Ascians are around). Otherwise, we may just let Fray lead us away from everything...

Forgive me if I sound slow to the uptake...
Is it just me or does the Conversion of Energy/Law of Energy really come to effect here? That's what it feels like to me. Humor me on this but when a Primal gets destroyed the aether doesn't disappear from Hydaelyn because She does not own the actual aether (maybe the lifeforms that the aether supports?) So the amount of energy is converted and transferred over to Zodiark. Aether that supports life on the planet diminishes because it's not being recycled in that system of flow. Or it went full on Chernobyl and became overaspected. This really fits into the theory of duality, except one system of flow is obviously more sinister ( according to Word of the Mother).
This analogy may sounds confusing so I apologize for the 'lolwut' lol.

In an effort to explain my point, say you have two people in a tank that only fills up with water when a primal dies. One person breaths oxygen, and the other breaths water (yes I know water has oxygen in but this is an analogy). Each time the water fills up, Hydaelyn, or the person who can only breath oxygen has less air to breath until she drowns. Now let's say all life of Hydaelyn are akin to microbiota/normal flora to us, there's microbiota in the gut, on the skin, in the mouth, on the surface of our eyes and etc. In this analogy, there are quite a few germs that are called opportunistic pathogens, which are big deal when one's immune system is weak. It seems like WoD are these opportunistic pathogens, causing our poor Hydaelyn to go septic and die. The weird guy in the water is thriving because he has the means to sustain himself, and any "microbiota" that live on or in him.

Primal slaying seems to be the conduit that transfers energy between two 'major systems'. I tend to categorize voidsent with the realm of Zodiark, and evil as those creatures may be, he may be the "central system" to which their river of life flows. Which is bad for us, and fucked up the Mhach. So, if SE was going this shade of gray evil morality route, Zodiark rejoinings are bad for us because Hydaelyn supports US, but good for those who are supported by Zodiark.