Time limit to re-enter dungeons

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Originally Posted by Richard

A F2P game can't do well for itself? The original GW sold 6 Million Copies of the original game not to mention the 3-4 expansion packs they put out over a 6 year period. 6 years is a good shelf life for an MMO if you ask me.

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Except Guild Wars isn't an MMO. It's a 3-D Diablo clone.

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Originally Posted by Richard

A F2P game can't do well for itself? The original GW sold 6 Million Copies of the original game not to mention the 3-4 expansion packs they put out over a 6 year period. 6 years is a good shelf life for an MMO if you ask me.

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And such a hardcore-friendly game it was indeed.

You could clear it in two weeks.

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Originally Posted by Richard

again: All MMOs need to be designed around everyone. Not casuals alone. Not hardcores alone. A mix for everyone.

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This is opinion not some sort of MMO law. We all have opinions and this is yours. Thanks for sharing.

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Originally Posted by Zkieve

i have to disagree there, ffxi shinned becouse they aimed for hardcore PVE (on its peak, not now that all playing are fans ).
Wow Shined becouse they aimed for casuals.
Aion Shined (compared to many others it was succesfull) becouse it focused on PVP.

Just a few examples that comes to my mind .

Im gonna have to disagree, try to cater to to many , and you will cater to none at all.,If GW can do it or not , is yet to be seen .

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I agree XI was that exception and they had that niche that lasted a good 6-8 years but next gen MMOs cant survive like that anymore.

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Originally Posted by TonyMontana

This is opinion not some sort of MMO law. We all have opinions and this is yours. Thanks for sharing.

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Not only that, but it is his 'assumption' that dungeons won't have anything to offer Hardcore players. Based on... nothing because it hasn't been released yet.

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Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah

And such a hardcore-friendly game it was indeed.

You could clear it in two weeks.

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never said it was hardcore. I was talking about GW2 until you brought up F2P.

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Originally Posted by Richard

never said it was hardcore. I was talking about GW2 until you brought up F2P.

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Based on my experience with GW1, where the game doesn't even expect you to level on your own and you can START the game at max-level, there wasn't a more 'casual' MMO on the market back then and I don't feel their direction has changed with GW2.

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Originally Posted by Richard

never said it was hardcore. I was talking about GW2 until you brought up F2P.

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Ah, GW2 isn't F2P? It uses the same model.

I don't even know why you brought up GW1, cause I sure as hell didn't.

It's buy to play, by the way..

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Originally Posted by DurtiMonkeyToe

It is the same thing. FINAL stages. Dungeons are NOT the final stage of the game. End game will be the day they release an all out war with the Garlean Empire, or the day that you get a boss fight for the Emperor of Garlemand. Dungeons do not classify as end-game because they are not the END of the GAME.

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I guess that is what also Richard was saying ealier. For now, Dungeons will be the final Stage. Like Groundkings were Endgame for Years in FFXI, before they raised the cap to 90'ish. Groundkings dont mean shit anymore. Its the same definition of "final". They are Endgame, in my personal oppinion, till SE will add larger Content or will raise Cap along with higher Tiers of Dungeons. I also know what you mean and totally agree with your point of view. Can you agree with my view of the Things?

Yes b/c the solution to low amount of content in games are timers.. people start living in 21st century. We should be able to enter any content whenever we want. If you have a problem with that enter those dungeons once a week and it will last you 2 months.

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Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah

Ah, GW2 isn't F2P? It uses the same model.

I don't even know why you brought up GW1, cause I sure as hell didn't.

It's buy to play, by the way..

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You said they had no payment model assuming that the game would do bad based on that aspect. I brought up GW1, the same company that does GW2, pointing out that the game did extremely well in that aspect despite it being F2P.

C'mon it's not that hard to stay on the ball with this convo guy. I shouldn't have to draw you a picture with crayons.

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Originally Posted by Nero

I guess that is what also Richard was saying ealier. For now, Dungeons will be the final Stage. Like Groundkings were Endgame for Years in FFXI, before they raised the cap to 90'ish. Groundkings dont mean shit anymore. Its the same definition of "final". They are Endgame, in my personal oppinion, till SE will add larger Content or will raise Cap along with higher Tiers of Dungeons. I also know what you mean and totally agree with your point of view. Can you agree with my view of the Things?

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Defender's ring still means something lol. :(

Man I miss old FFXI.

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Originally Posted by Richard

You said they had no payment model assuming that the game would do bad based on that aspect.

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You are replying to too many people at once.

You responded to a guy talking about catering to both casuals and hardcores, saying GW2 is the answer.

I said that doesn't make even a sliver of sense (it doesn't).

Nowhere did I say GW2 would do badly because it's B2P. I think it's going to perform exceptionally well for what it is, just like GW1.

Not being able t cater to both audiences has nothing to do with it's success.

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Originally Posted by Nero

I guess that is what also Richard was saying ealier. For now, Dungeons will be the final Stage. Like Groundkings were Endgame for Years in FFXI, before they raised the cap to 90'ish. Groundkings dont mean shit anymore. Its the same definition of "final". They are Endgame, in my personal oppinion, till SE will add larger Content or will raise Cap along with higher Tiers of Dungeons. I also know what you mean and totally agree with your point of view. Can you agree with my view of the Things?

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No, I'm sorry I can't. Just because Dungeons are the last thing you can participate in doesn't mean they are end-game. Do you consider running a Promy-Mea in FFXI as end game? NO, because it is the START of a storyline. End game is called End Game because it closes out the events that you have progressed through. Dungeons are a beginning and not an end.

You can consider whatever you want to be end-game, but not everyone in the community is going to conform to your definition.

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Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah

You are replying to too many people at once.

You responded to a guy talking about catering to both casuals and hardcores, saying GW2 is the answer.

I said that doesn't make even a sliver of sense (it doesn't).

Nowhere did I say GW2 would do badly because it's B2P. I think it's going to perform exceptionally well for what it is, just like GW1.

Not being able t cater to both audiences has nothing to do with it's success.

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Pretty sure you said this

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Oh, is that what the (PR) developers said? How cute.

Regardless, it doesn't make a sliver of sense considering their subscription model (or the lack of it).

On top of being impossible to accomplish.

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Originally Posted by Quisi

Yes b/c the solution to low amount of content in games are timers.. people start living in 21st century. We should be able to enter any content whenever we want. If you have a problem with that enter those dungeons once a week and it will last you 2 months.

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So simply put, yet some of these people are beyond rationalities >.< Plus they act like the game is catering to them rather than the obvious higher tier'd revenue of people with a life who can't run these 20 times a day. It's all lil bits of content adding up for the re-release. They are trying to please current players but at the same time they can't cater to all and their only hope for this game is the relaunch so that's what they're most worried about. Gaming industry is a business and does in fact effect in-game decisions, anyone who doesn't like it needs to learn self control/discipline when they overplay a game and says there's lil content to be found xD It's all relative anyways, people complaining don't get that... or freedom LoL Most of us have more than enoguh going on in life that we shouldn't be restricted and build our life around a game, we should just be able to dive in and do what we want with who we want, whenever we want >.> Just glad Yoshi get's it Hehe

You can consider the faction leves "endgame content" but I sure as hell don't. They're only "endgame" in the literal sense.

These raids are the same way, unless Yoshida wants to retain the cap at 50 for a long time, instead of making the dungeons a stepping stone for later content.

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Originally Posted by Richard

Pretty sure you said this

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Yes, I did. Because it's B2P, there is no reason to cater to hardcore in any shape or form. All they need you to do is buy their product, and if the PR pillowtalk accomplishes that, more power to them.

Still has no relation to whether they'll be successful or not.

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Originally Posted by Hotohori

Wow, now I wonder how long these dungeons are going to last as good content if the re-enter time is so fast.

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I can't believe......

You don't have to have fun more than an hour a night if you want, and the dungeon can last years for you.

I am pleasantly surpried they decided to make the wait so short, now I am more excited than ever.

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Originally Posted by Roaran

I can't believe......

You don't have to have fun more than an hour a night if you want, and the dungeon can last years for you.

I am pleasantly surpried they decided to make the wait so short, now I am more excited than ever.

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Right up there with you^^ Already have more than half a dozen friends returning just cause of the added freedom, they were afraid they'd put more restrictions on restrictions of restrictions like SE loves to do! Loving the new "Freedom" direction the game will/is taking!... Some people just love having their hand held, can't please these people practically from a business standpoint >.< Wouldn't be too smart :P

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Originally Posted by Richard

Utilizing content =/= finishing content in 1 week. Even your precious World of Warcraft is not this casual.

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in FFXI, Sky didn't have a timer. Problem?

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Originally Posted by Dubont

in FFXI, Sky didn't have a timer. Problem?

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Every NM was alllllways up, not to mention the ???'s.

Nawp, no timers!

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Originally Posted by Dubont

in FFXI, Sky didn't have a timer. Problem?

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sky is open world content. not instanced. problem? Not to mention you had to farm "currency" in the form of triggers to even do the content. That in-itself is it's own "timer" and stretched the content out much longer than it would have if you could just pop the gods w/e triggers.

Good try though.

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Originally Posted by Dubont

in FFXI, Sky didn't have a timer. Problem?

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Thank you for bringing logic to a crazed discussion.

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Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah

Every NM was alllllways up, not to mention the ???'s.

Nawp, no timers!

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not the point. Sky, the actual dungeon, was ALWAYS up and had no timers on it at all. So, I don't see the problem with 14's dungeons, the dungeon itself, not the content inside, having a 5 min cooldown.

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Originally Posted by Richard

sky is open world content. not instanced. problem?

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Lol. I LOVE that every time someone brings up a relevant point you dismiss it because it doesn't conform to your opinion. SKY is ENDGAME, DUNGEONS are NOT. Problem?

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Originally Posted by Dubont

not the point. Sky, the actual dungeon, was ALWAYS up and had no timers on it at all. So, I don't see the problem with 14's dungeons, the dungeon itself, not the content inside, having a 5 min cooldown.

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sky is open world content. not instanced. problem? Not to mention you had to farm "currency" in the form of triggers to even do the content. That in-itself is it's own "timer" and stretched the content out much longer than it would have if you could just pop the gods w/e triggers.

Good try though.

wtf 5min? i hope SE is joking the dungeon would get old within 2-4hours of me doing it.

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Originally Posted by Dubont

not the point. Sky, the actual dungeon, was ALWAYS up and had no timers on it at all. So, I don't see the problem with 14's dungeons, the dungeon itself, not the content inside, having a 5 min cooldown.

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The " Content " was the NMs , not the area itself.No point to go to sky to look how pretty it is and hold hands. orz.
Normally you would assume when you reenter a "instance" everything is back to square 1 , so he is right when he speaks about NM´s timers.

To be frank im more worried to find dungeons of tank and spank ONRY, than how fast can we get tired of them.
I need to see some quality designs desperately.


Also, anything that does not require players of current max level is not end game.
Everything that requires groups of max level is end game .Regardless of entry level(think dynamis)

We dont know about the dungeon yet.

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Originally Posted by Richard

sky is open world content. not instanced. problem? Not to mention you had to farm "currency" in the form of triggers to even do the content. That in-itself is it's own "timer" and stretched the content out much longer than it would have if you could just pop the gods w/e triggers.

Good try though.

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good job at missing the point. No, the currency is not a timer. Pop items =/= timer. Sorry. Also, I was talking about the DUNGEON, not the content inside of that dungeon. BUT, since you like to look around the point, thereby completely missing it, BCNMs were instanced, not endgame and were not on a timer. Yes, you had to get the "currency," but that is not a timer. If you would like a definition of what a timer is: 1. An automatic mechanism for activating a device at a preset time: "a video timer".
2. A person or device that measures or records the amount of time taken by a process or activity

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Originally Posted by Dubont

good job at missing the point. No, the currency is not a timer. Pop items =/= timer. Sorry. Also, I was talking about the DUNGEON, not the content inside of that dungeon. BUT, since you like to look around the point, thereby completely missing it, BCNMs were instanced, not endgame and were not on a timer. Yes, you had to get the "currency," but that is not a timer. If you would like a definition of what a timer is: 1. An automatic mechanism for activating a device at a preset time: "a video timer".
2. A person or device that measures or records the amount of time taken by a process or activity

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Not to mention that you could have an alliance FULL of people that already had the items farmed and ready to go. You could literally fight the mob all night long that way, hence, no timer.

Hi All,

While the 5 Minute (basically non-existent) restriction to re-enter Dungeon might be super convenient and helpful to cater to anyone playing the game, there is one aspect that FF XIV is suffering from as a result of this type of convenience:

* Lack of Feeling of Genuine, Major Accomplishment.

By this I mean the feeling you get for accomplishing something that made you get up and shout in elation and relief over defeating / overcoming / gaining something that was rare.

The last batch of 20 Mid-Level NMs are a perfect example of what Richard and some others are talking about:

* After the initial buzz of maybe 2 or 3 days (if that), no one really cares about those 20 NMs any more.

The Drops don't feel special at all. There is no great sense of accomplishment for getting a drop from an NM that respawns within 1 minute to 5 minutes of being killed (with a decent drop rate).

Now, on the other hand, it *is* very convenient and allowed pretty much everyone that put a little bit of effort into it, to gain their very own Unique / Untradeable NM Weapon / Armor. So that's great for everyone just wanting to get an item to use (which has also hurt the crafters for items in that range (since many people with means can just hunt the NM and get a better item)).

I'm not asking for extremes. I think FF XI's 72 Hour Window (or camping HNMs on a 21 - 24 Hour Respawn Timer) may have been "fun" for people in a certain situation in their life, but nowadays it feels too extreme and silly.

But there's no denying that getting your Kirin's Osode, O. Kote, Empress Hairpin, etc. (Original drop rates, early years) really felt like an accomplishment. Beating Dynamis-Xarcabard for the first time (pre-nerf, early years) felt like a great accomplishment. Beating Chains of Promathea (pre-nerf) was fun.

On the other hand, I'm happy for the convenience of FF XIV, but pretty much every NM fight (even the original Dodore, Great Buffalo, etc.) feels like a "Oh cool. Yay."-type of moment, instead of a...

"HELL YAH! WOO HOO!!!!!!! We did it!!!"-type of moment.

Who wouldn't want to have a great sense of accomplishment when playing FF 14?

Right now, beating up Bardi or Queen Bollette, or Downy Dunstan, feels like a "Eh. No drop. Look for the ~1 minute repop." Rinse and repeat.

When you get a drop from the Mid-Level NMs, you feel mildly happy and leave to do other stuff.

So what's the "ideal re-entry / cooldown time"? I think everyone has their own personal limit, but 5 minutes before retrying seems really short.

Betel is right that this caters to Hardcore more (since they have the dedication to repeat constantly until it's done), but I think what Richard and others are saying is that it's good to have content that can last longer than what we have now.

Ultimately, we'll have to see what the Dungeons are like, and maybe the 5 Minute Cooldown is there for a reason (like people disconnecting / crashing and wanting a chance to get back in quickly; or the drop rates are super rare with lots of confusing / alternate paths, so we have to figure it out repeatedly), but if not, this may be similar to the 20 Mid-Level NMs we got in terms of feeling of accomplishment. We'll see.

My initial reaction was "grrr damn it I'm going to smash through this in a weekend".

Then I thought "Wow, when those people got all upset that DC's might cost them a dungeon run they got the same way, and this just cured that."

So, my approach is going to be:
Wait
See
Judge

Keep hopes low and every cool feature is a bonus!

We need a community rep in here asap to clear things out lol.


I play 3h~ per day.
So, I would be able to do 1-2 dungeons a day, considering there's a gather up and get ready time.
Sounds pretty good to me, since there's more than one path per dungeon and the drop rate wont be that good.

But yea, hardcore players would get things done a lot faster and "run out" of content pretty soon.

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Originally Posted by Kiara

Hi All,

While the 5 Minute (basically non-existent) restriction to re-enter Dungeon might be super convenient and helpful to cater to anyone playing the game, there is one aspect that FF XIV is suffering from as a result of this type of convenience:

* Lack of Feeling of Genuine, Major Accomplishment.

By this I mean the feeling you get for accomplishing something that made you get up and shout in elation and relief over defeating / overcoming / gaining something that was rare.

The last batch of 20 Mid-Level NMs are a perfect example of what Richard and some others are talking about:

* After the initial buzz of maybe... 2 or 3 days (if that), no one really cares about those 20 NMs any more.

The Drops don't feel special at all. There is no great sense of accomplishment for getting a drop from an NM that respawns within 1 minute to 5 minutes of being killed (with a decent drop rate).

Now, on the other hand, it *is* very convenient and allowed pretty much everyone that put a little bit of effort into it, gain their very own Unique / Untradeable NM Weapon / Armor. So that's great for everyone just wanting to get an item to use (which has also hurt the crafters for items in that range (since many people with means can just hunt the NM and get a better item)).

I'm not asking for extremes. I think FF XI's 72 Hour Window (or camping HNMs on a 21 - 24 Hour Respawn Timer) may have been "fun" for people in a certain situation in their life, but nowadays it feels too extreme and silly.

But there's no denying that getting your Kirin's Osode, O. Kote, Empress Hairpin, etc. (Original drop rates, early years) really felt like an accomplishment. Beating Dynamis-Xarcabard for the first time (pre-nerf, early years) felt like a great accomplishment. Beating Chains of Promathea (pre-nerf) was fun.

On the other hand, I'm happy for the convenience of FF XIV, but pretty much every NM fight (even the original Dodore, Great Buffalo, etc.) feels like a "Oh cool. Yay."-type of moment, instead of a...

"HELL YAH! WOO HOO!!!!!!! We did it!!!"-type of moment.

Who wouldn't want to have a great sense of accomplishment when playing FF 14?

Right now, beating up Bardi or Queen Bollette, or Downy Dunstan, feels like a "Eh. No drop. Look for the 1 minute repop." Rinse and repeat.

When you get a drop from the Mid-Level NMs, you feel mildly happy and leave to do other stuff.

So what's the "ideal re-entry / cooldown time"? I think everyone has their own personal limit, but 5 minutes before retrying seems really short.

Betel is right that this caters to Hardcore more (since they have the dedication to repeat constantly until it's done), but I think what Richard and others are saying is that it's good to have content that can last longer than what we have now.

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Mid-level NMs weren't made for your r50 CON. They WERE created for the large population of players that didn't level past r25/r30 because there was nothing to do. And THESE players DO consider it an accomplishment. All the proof you need is riddled on youtube by many "MIDCORE" Linkshells who post videos of them defeating these NMs.

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Originally Posted by Dubont

not the point. Sky, the actual dungeon, was ALWAYS up and had no timers on it at all. So, I don't see the problem with 14's dungeons, the dungeon itself, not the content inside, having a 5 min cooldown.

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Haha

As long as the content inside has a timer! Brilliant.

You get feeling of accomplishment by beating a difficult content, not by giving it a cooldown.

a content with cooldown and no challenge will not gives u sense of accomplishment.

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Originally Posted by Raze

My initial reaction was "grrr damn it I'm going to smash through this in a weekend".

Then I thought "Wow, when those people got all upset that DC's might cost them a dungeon run they got the same way, and this just cured that."

So, my approach is going to be:
Wait
See
Judge

Keep hopes low and every cool feature is a bonus!

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Thank you! This is how a rational adult reacts. There may be trepidation, or concern, but at least THEY WAIT UNTIL THEY KNOW FOR SURE to start complaining.

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Originally Posted by Sagagemini

We need a community rep in here asap to clear things out lol.


I play 3h~ per day.
So, I would be able to do 1-2 dungeons a day, considering there's a gather up and get ready time.
Sounds pretty good to me, since there's more than one path per dungeon and the drop rate wont be that good.

But yea, hardcore players would get things done a lot faster and "run out" of content pretty soon.

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Not necessarily. Even farming the top level NMs for hours on end, it took my Linkshell a long time to get all the gear we wanted and needed.

I have this great idea, guys! Okay so get this: You finish or fail the raid, and then...don't try again until tomorrow! Genius, right?

It's seriously sad you guys need a mechanic to force some restraint upon yourselves.

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Originally Posted by RabidSquirrel

I have this great idea, guys! Okay so get this: You finish or fail the raid, and then...don't try again until tomorrow! Genius, right?

It's seriously sad you guys need a mechanic to force some restraint upon yourselves.

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AAAAAAANNNNNNNDDDDDDDDDD /thread :D