PVP Wintrade Exploitation, is this reportable?

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Originally Posted by Nalien

Actually, solo queue (assuming you win) nets you 100% rewards, while grouping only gets you 50%. As with most of XIV (that isn't "hardcore" endgame), Yoshida would rather you play with completely random people for better rewards than enjoy the game with friends.

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we're talking light party queues, which give you the exact same rewards as if you were alone.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

Actually, solo queue (assuming you win) nets you 100% rewards, while grouping only gets you 50%. As with most of XIV (that isn't "hardcore" endgame), Yoshida would rather you play with completely random people for better rewards than enjoy the game with friends.

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that only happen in group of 2 or 3, if you join as 4 you have 100%

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Originally Posted by Snorgrind

that only happen in group of 2 or 3, if you join as 4 you have 100%

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not true to an extent. if you join as 4 in a solo queue you will receive 25% of the rewards. you have to use the light party option for the rewards to be 100% as a full party.

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the more i post and read these incessant threads, the more i wonder, how many of you actually do pvp on a daily basis, and how many of you are simply furious that there are venues you simply refuse/aren't using to get the new pretty gear.

no one is begging you to win trade, but you're creating a problem that is easily bypassed with a system most people don't bother to use. you think the win traders are the problem, when the only problem is people like the ones creating this thread.

yes, solo queueing will be largely dead. but at the same time light party queues are simply so much better, that they aren't worth the time. a lot of people have realized this. have you thought beyond win traders as to why your queue is dead?

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Originally Posted by Histoire

we're talking light party queues, which give you the exact same rewards as if you were alone.

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I think you need to make a distinction between queueing up with friends to actually PVP
And queueing up with friends to just die instantly (no actual gameplay/pvp involved)

1 is having fun with friends
the other is bypassing the pvp part of pvp

If you win-trade to rank 40 and get a full set of gear it becomes a lot easier to get wins in solo queue as almost no low levels can do anything to you. I've been in groups where tanks were completely afk and dd's couldn't kill anyone for 5min

you cant join solo queue with 4 ppl, it will force you to use light party join

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Originally Posted by Snorgrind

that only happen in group of 2 or 3, if you join as 4 you have 100%

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Last time I joined with four I got 50%. Solo I'd get 60EXP/100Marks approx., light party I got 30/50. Maybe it has something to do with rank difference...

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Originally Posted by Snorgrind

you cant join solo queue with 4 ppl, it will force you to use light party join

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no. you can face 4 man premades in solo queue. one of the many flaws with this system. it does not force you to use the light party queue.

the standard in light party with balanced ranks is 60 exp 100 marks.

exp and marks given are based on your party's total rank vs. the other party's total ranks.

seriously no one in here does pvp very much, none of you seem to know what's going on. XD

just relax and think about light party queues instead of pointing fingers at the people who just grind. win traders aren't the problem here. the people that completely forgot there is another side of pvp are.

now when people are using light party and win traders sit there withdrawing over and over like it's CT trying to line up together, we have an actual problem. and again, it won't be with the people. it's going to be the way pvp is set up. it's just not what it should be, and there's nothing we can do about that.

but i can pretty much tell you, there are 30+ parties in light queue, and most of them never see each other because they know how the matching system works.

same time, it will become a problem later when compacting happens and most parties queueing are around the same rank.

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Originally Posted by Azurymber

I think you need to make a distinction between queueing up with friends to actually PVP
And queueing up with friends to just die instantly (no actual gameplay/pvp involved)

1 is having fun with friends
the other is bypassing the pvp part of pvp

If you win-trade to rank 40 and get a full set of gear it becomes a lot easier to get wins in solo queue as almost no low levels can do anything to you. I've been in groups where tanks were completely afk and dd's couldn't kill anyone for 5min

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not necessarily. both are considered having fun with friends, the differences are in the way they choose to do it. you've simply applied your own feelings and your own thought process to it and called it fact.

just because a few dolts decided to queue up at rank 40 doesn't make them the problem. it's this craptastic pvp system we've been given. and chances are they sat there forever waiting because they over rank everyone. it's terrible for -everyone- that solos.

by this logic, whenever people hit rank 40, be it legitimately or otherwise, you're still going to be upset when they smash on you oh so easily. you're upset with the process, and i understand that, but they're by no means your main problem.

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Originally Posted by Histoire

not necessarily. both are considered having fun with friends, the differences are in the way they choose to do it. you've simply applied your own feelings and your own thought process to it and called it fact.

just because a few dolts decided to queue up at rank 40 doesn't make them the problem. it's this craptastic pvp system we've been given. and chances are they sat there forever waiting because they over rank everyone. it's terrible for -everyone- that solos.

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how is joining a pvp match to die (not actually pvping) any different than going into a titan ex and glitching it so you never get hit?
Both are ignoring the game design and getting an "easy win" for rewards

I don't pvp, could care less what goes on over there, my question is, why are you mad that they are doing this? All that will happen is they will hit rank 40, get the armor they want for vanity, and not pvp again.

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Originally Posted by Azurymber

how is joining a pvp match to die (not actually pvping) any different than going into a titan ex and glitching it so you never get hit?
Both are ignoring the game design and getting an "easy win" for rewards

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again with the comparisons pve to pvp, but i'll humor you:

how is say, jumping onto a rock, and watching the mob sit there unable to hit you (this is the only titan exploit i remember off the top of my head) comparable to getting 7 people together and working toward a goal? you disagree with the method.

so by your logic and disagreeing with the method people who choose to do aurum vale 47-50 instead of fate would be a problem, but they're not in your way, so you don't care.

the system is screwing you. not the people. if this were to be considered even remotely an exploit i would be utterly baffled. it is no different than 1.0 power leveling, no different than quick leveling methods in the current game.

it's like adding the DF into the equation made people explode.

I just wish we would get an official answer on this, I actually enjoy the pvp, but if wintrade is not against the rules I can see myself doing it for faster ranking for before frontlines. Until then i'll keep doing my solo queues.

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Originally Posted by Nadrojj

I don't pvp, could care less what goes on over there, my question is, why are you mad that they are doing this? All that will happen is they will hit rank 40, get the armor they want for vanity, and not pvp again.

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because the armor is an incentive to pvp so that people can actually pvp without 30min queues

If SE said "win-trading is ok"
I would go win-trade to 40 and then do pvp for fun

But the way things are, i don't want to "exploit" and risk a ban (and it's pretty clear it's an exploit)
And I have to spend 4 weeks of my life pvping -all day- instead of doing other content I find fun, while other people basically "cheat" their way to 40 in 2 days.

I just want equality. If win trading is OK a dev should post "go ahead and do it, you won't get banned"
Not stay silent and allow some people to cheat and get ahead of those willing to put the effort in

FFXIV shouldn't be about calculating the risk of being banned in order to get ahead of other people

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Originally Posted by Histoire

again with the comparisons pve to pvp, but i'll humor you:

how is say, jumping onto a rock, and watching the mob sit there unable to hit you (this is the only titan exploit i remember off the top of my head) comparable to getting 7 people together and working toward a goal? you disagree with the method.

so by your logic and disagreeing with the method people who choose to do aurum vale 47-50 instead of fate would be a problem, but they're not in your way, so you don't care.

the system is screwing you. not the people.

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Aurum vale has mobs that give exp. Killing mobs is gameplay. You kill mobs, you get exp.
PvP is a competition. If all you do is go in to die, why even have pvp? why not just give away the gear free? You aren't actually playing the game.
Same way botting PvP isn't playing the game
And same way entering PvP and afking wouldn't be playing the game

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Originally Posted by Azurymber

because the armor is an incentive to pvp so that people can actually pvp without 30min queues

If SE said "win-trading is ok"
I would go win-trade to 40 and then do pvp for fun

But the way things are, i don't want to "exploit" and risk a ban (and it's pretty clear it's an exploit)
And I have to spend 4 weeks of my life pvping -all day- instead of doing other content I find fun, while other people basically "cheat" their way to 40 in 2 days.

I just want equality. If win trading is OK a dev should post "go ahead and do it, you won't get banned"
Not stay silent and allow some people to cheat and get ahead of those willing to put the effort in

FFXIV shouldn't be about calculating the risk of being banned in order to get ahead of other people

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So you're mad that you have to spend time doing something to get the reward and want the official ok to put in less work is what you're saying? In two weeks all of them will be gone, they'll have their armor and the people left playing the terrible excuse they call pvp will be free to continue to pvp eachother.

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Originally Posted by Azurymber

because the armor is an incentive to pvp so that people can actually pvp without 30min queues

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You completely missed Nadrojj's point.

Yes, armor / glamours is an incentive to grind PvP.

It is also a dead end. Most players who get their glamours will have absolutely no reason to continue playing PvP. There are no leaderboards, no ranking system, no title to defend. The biggest attraction to PvP is also its greatest flaw.

This is by far the worse PvP in a P2P game I have ever seen.

And what about Frontlines. Won't people who wintraded to R40 have the advantage over everyone else? Starting on Jenova I missed the initial grind to 30 and am stuck with these awful queues. I have no qualms against people who are using the system to their advantage but, SE should reply, and if they see something wrong with it issue rollbacks to ranks for those involved. If not then atleast all these threads will dissapear.

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Originally Posted by Histoire

no. you can face 4 man premades in solo queue. one of the many flaws with this system. it does not force you to use the light party queue.

the standard in light party with balanced ranks is 60 exp 100 marks.

exp and marks given are based on your party's total rank vs. the other party's total ranks.

seriously no one in here does pvp very much, none of you seem to know what's going on. XD

just relax and think about light party queues instead of pointing fingers at the people who just grind. win traders aren't the problem here. the people that completely forgot there is another side of pvp are.

now when people are using light party and win traders sit there withdrawing over and over like it's CT trying to line up together, we have an actual problem. and again, it won't be with the people. it's going to be the way pvp is set up. it's just not what it should be, and there's nothing we can do about that.

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Other side of PvP.. surely you are not talking about what you and Seras is doing is it? Opening a Party Finder group with the title of "4v4 PvP wintrading" to get a number of random players to fill your grps and then queue up at the same time to take turns in killing each other without effort? Last time i checked thats the very definition of wintrading.

Also you are talking about how you can meet premade teams while soloqueueing, that is only possible at the level 30 and 40 queues.

And yes, the problem lies with the wintraders. For one, for every wintrader parties/arrangements beeing set up, 8 possible players ranged from any ranks are taken off the queues, which again makes the solo, duo, and trio queues taking longer and the system starts to mash players with a large rank gap with each other.

2nd. Wintrading is pretty much about giving them the rewards without them working/put an effort in obtaining it. You can compare it with anything that is unjust in this world. For instance, why would another player that dont care about PvP at all gets to wear/glamour the top tiered PvP gear if he didnt put an effort in obtaining it? Doesnt matter if he's never gonna PvP again, the suit is for those who put an effort in obtaining it and is one of the few rewards for doing PvP. Should someone that just got level 50 be given i115 gear from Coil and the weapon from T9 because said person didnt wanna put an effort in beating the bosses? Should a person be given a bonus paycheck because his co-worker did all the extra work while said person just sat at work and barely did his job?

And dotn speak about the 4v4 queues cus most ppl are just withdrawing when they dont meet the team they had an arrangement with, believe me, i tried hunting them down and had a blast just laughing at the withdrawals.

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Originally Posted by Nadrojj

So you're mad that you have to spend time doing something to get the reward and want the official ok to put in less work is what you're saying? In two weeks all of them will be gone, they'll have their armor and the people left playing the terrible excuse they call pvp will be free to continue to pvp eachother.

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I'm not mad
I'm just not supporting the idea that people should be able to cheat to get ahead just because they don't like content.
Why not just add a "win button" to everything. Don't want to do titan? Queue up and hit the win button when you get in! Would be the exact same thing as win-trading.

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Originally Posted by Azurymber

I'm not mad
I'm just not supporting the idea that people should be able to cheat to get ahead just because they don't like content.
Why not just add a "win button" to everything. Don't want to do titan? Queue up and hit the win button when you get in! Would be the exact same thing as win-trading.

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Agree.

Also two posts on this topic have already been removed. So they don't want it advertised which to me seems they don't want it too well known if they taking any kind of action (in before this one gets removed also XD )

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Originally Posted by Azurymber

cheat

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http://i62.tinypic.com/9izjo3.png

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

Agree.

Also two posts on this topic have already been removed. So they don't want it advertised which to me seems they don't want it too well known if they taking any kind of action (in before this one gets removed also XD )

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If that was the case then they'd have removed any and all posts and threads pertaining to it.

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Originally Posted by Limecat

http://i62.tinypic.com/9izjo3.png

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http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/cheat
5.to violate rules or regulations: He cheats at cards.

Win-trading has you utilize a system in a way it was not meant to be used (SE never intended you to go in and trade wins without any fights... otherwise whats the point of pvp). Abusing a system is against ToS (i believe screenshots of the specific line have been posted in this thread already)

Hence you are violating rules
Hence "cheating"

Might as well call Dzmael Darkhold speedruns "exploitation" as well. Is that reportable?

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

Might as well call Dzmael Darkhold speedruns "exploitation" as well. Is that reportable?

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originally speed runs in dungeon were "exploits" so they added in required mobs to reach bosses. E.g. you could no longer run to the boss and lock out an entire chain of mobs. You have to kill a few mobs first by the boss entrance. Just like in brayflox hard runs you need a key for the first boss, and you need to defeat all sets of goblins for second. Therefore not an exploit anymore. You have to play the game still to get to a boss. Killing lots of mobs at once is just a risky trade off.

PVP win trading on the other hand you don't really play. You go in, kill people who don't fight back. then go in and get killed without fighting back. No real "gameplay" involved.

Like i said if FCs rig the system to fight each other. but actually have real matches (e.g. 3-5min per fight where people try) i don't see a huge problem. It's when skip the actual fight and just die to speed up the process that is a problem.

In reality win trading isn't any different that hitting a button repeatedly. Technically you could do it with the following steps
Queue up at same time
Enter button
Spam 1 attack to kill opposing player while they stand there. or stand there and let yourself be killed
Exit button

Repeat.

A combination of 4 buttons, no effort or skill, no real time-sink other than hitting the 4 buttons, to accomplish 1 month of grinding.

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Originally Posted by Azurymber

In reality win trading isn't any different that hitting a button repeatedly. Technically you could do it with the following steps
Queue up at same time
Enter button
Spam 1 attack to kill opposing player while they stand there. or stand there and let yourself be killed
Exit button

Repeat.

A combination of 4 buttons, no effort or skill, no real time-sink other than hitting the 4 buttons, to accomplish 1 month of grinding.

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And people abusing the Vote Abandon feature to repeatedly farm the same set of mobs is "working as intended"? That was the point he was trying to make.

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Originally Posted by Tyrial

And people abusing the Vote Abandon feature to repeatedly farm the same set of mobs is "working as intended"? That was the point he was trying to make.

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In duty finder? no. that should be a banable offense (e.g. vote abandoning brayflox hard after second boss)

If you team up with 3 other people and enter then no problem. You aren't getting free exp for doing nothing. You have to actually kill things (play the game). And the fact that they let parties leave b4 15min with no penalty is probably because they intended ppl to level that way.

If people teamed up to do pvp for fast queues and PVPd then i wouldn't say theres a huge issue. The issue is when people skip pvping.

If you could enter a dungeon, do nothing (or glitch mobs so they dont fight back and just die fast) and get exp, leave, and re-do it, i would argue that's an exploit as well.

Meh, maybe they should think about having different rewards besides some of the better looking gear stuck behind a content wall that most of the playerbase doesn't want to do.

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Originally Posted by Nadrojj

Meh, maybe they should think about having different rewards besides some of the better looking gear stuck behind a content wall that most of the playerbase doesn't want to do.

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What they should do is post an official response saying yay or nay in regards and clear it up once and for all.

It's also not just for vanity. It gives an advantage in the content its created for aswell as future content, one which is coming up soon (Frontlines)

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Originally Posted by Azurymber

Don't want to do titan? Queue up and hit the win button when you get in! Would be the exact same thing as win-trading.

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ehm.... this exists. Its called queue for titan right after daily reset, you can jump down and let others carry you cuz its full of overgeared players. Is it called exploit too ?

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Originally Posted by Snorgrind

ehm.... this exists. Its called queue for titan right after daily reset, you can jump down and let others carry you cuz its full of overgeared players. Is it called exploit too ?

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pretty sure entering a dungeon and then insta-dying is considered greifing, and one of the reasons vote-kick was implemented.

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Originally Posted by Azurymber

You aren't getting free exp for doing nothing. You have to actually kill things (play the game). And the fact that they let parties leave b4 15min with no penalty is probably because they intended ppl to level that way.

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You can get exp for doing nothing in parties and let people power level you.

you actually have to kill people in win-trade, if you are going to use the argument that killing things = play the game.

Also if you say so and so system allow party to do so and so thing without penalty because they intended it to be that way then you are basically justifying wintrading yourself.

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Originally Posted by Namasu

You can get exp for doing nothing in parties and let people power level you.

you actually have to kill people in win-trade, if you are going to use the argument that killing things = play the game.

Also if you say so and so system allow party to do so and so thing without penalty because they intended it to be that way then you are basically justifying wintrading yourself.

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So basically you are saying
People should wintrade (why do pvp if it takes a month vs 4 days of wintrading?)
People should powerlevel (why kill anything if you can pay someone else to do it for you)
People should insta-die on titan and get carried (why try if people can just carry you)

If your attitude is take shortcuts where you do nothing to get to max rank/level whats the point of this being an MMO? Why not just go do similarly repetitive factory work? Arguing that abusing a system by ignoring an entire aspect of a game due to an instant-gratification workaround kind of delegitimizes the whole idea of a game. Why bother with any of this stuff. we should get access to all gear, beat bosses with a button, etc.

Why play a game if all you will do is basically "skip all the content" to get ahead so you can brag about the cool gear you have. Why not just download a chat client like IMVU.

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Originally Posted by Namasu

You can get exp for doing nothing in parties and let people power level you.

you actually have to kill people in win-trade, if you are going to use the argument that killing things = play the game.

Also if you say so and so system allow party to do so and so thing without penalty because they intended it to be that way then you are basically justifying wintrading yourself.

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Whats your point here actually? Would you like to lead a party consisting of players that dont do what their supposed to do, knowingly that they are just leeching off on purpose? or would you.. boot them perhaps?

And yes, you have to kill other players to win trade, same way as you have to kill monsters for xp or loot or other players for pvp, but they actually FIGHTS back. Killing 4 other players that was arranged to be naked, stand still, dance around or dont resist at all for this round or that round, would you call that to play the game?

Dont voice your opinion if you have the wrong idea of what win-trading is. Arranging to face each other grps in 4v4 is ok when both teams actually try to win against each other, battling it out, like the system is "supposed" to be used. But rigged matches on which team to win on what turn is what i would call exploiting the system as it is, aka win-trading, which is not how you are supposed to be playing the game.

It isn't win-trading... it is like T3 in coil, TIME ATTACK! Who can kill the other team fastest if they just stand still!

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Originally Posted by Mardel

It isn't win-trading... it is like T3 in coil, TIME ATTACK! Who can kill the other team fastest if they just stand still!

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Best answer in the whole thread XD

It's astonishing how bold-faced and illogical some of the people in this thread are defending wintrading. Lie to yourselves all you'd like, but the truth is you're only attempting to make it seem like the lousy way you're doing things is the intentional way to level. If SE wanted this, they would have just handed us the gear. Anyone who claims otherwise is just deluding themselves.

There's no reason for it other than people are lazy. People who only want it for vanity, should still have to go the correct channels to get it. People who are too lazy and just want the gear to have an advantage over others.

Just because the system allows it, doesn't mean that it's "Working as intended". How can you honestly claim that SE wanted us to take turns beating on each other in order to level up?

The same people are probably the ones that buy gil, use bots, and all around just suck as players in general.

tl;dr Stop being bad, and do things legit.

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Originally Posted by Azurymber

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Because people bought the game and paid subscriptions just like you and they can and will do whatever they want within the limit of the game until the dev come out and say no?

I could care less what you think of my attitude, but if you really care about me that much then I'll let you know that I trade pvp wins and trade powerlevel with friends. Unfortunately the only thing I didn't get to do is dying on titan to get carried.

That's not unfortunate. Just sayin.