Titan Extreme is NOT Fun

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Originally Posted by Hiruke

Haha. What? There is a lot of problems with this game, but it's pretty ridiculous that SE has to deal with criticism about the stuff that isn't bad as well. No creativity because you can be removed from the fight? Whatever. People thought Titan HM was "super hard" too. If you go in with actual smart people, it's an easy win. Smash it down in under 8 minutes or whatever. Go in with a bunch of bad players, you might be in there for hours. Titan EM, just do the same thing as before: Learn the patterns, and don't eat stuff that removes you from the fight. Get better, and beat it. Nothing in the game is particularly difficult as long as you think about it a bit and don't have the reaction time of a slug.

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It's not about being able to beat it or not. It's about the grueling proccess of memorizing a fight that's more AoE and I wouldn't enjoy... To me, it wasn't fun on HM, won't change now.
I said no creativity because I think "more AoE" is the easiest way of adding difficulty. And SE as been using it way too much for everything, even leveling content.

AoE in my opinion should complement mechanics, not be the mechanic. For example, look at Garuda EM... it simply makes you move, on a fight that you don't want to move thanks to LoS attacks and damage check.
That's the foundation of "fire on the ground" in WoW. You just get out. The faster you are, the less damage you take, and the more your healers will like you. Here there's no distinction - "barely got out" and "didn't even bother" = the same punishment (barely being punished because on the servers, you're still inside it).

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Originally Posted by ZeroRains

Give me a break, this fight was bs in hard mode and just a step in the wrong direction.

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Wait, did you say Titan HM was BS (presumably because it's hard for you)? I laugh at you good sir. Good day.

Titan HM is only hard with a group that has at least 3 incompetent players that can't even survive pre-heart. With a group of players that are geared and understand the mechanics, Titan HM is a cakewalk. I've been in groups that have sold HM runs to 2 people at once and they would jump and kill themselves after the heart phase and it was still easy to beat with just 6 players.

Titan EX is notably a completely different monster. Yet several people have at least 1 if not 2 EX weapons now so it's obviously not an impossible fight.

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Originally Posted by Ri_ri

That's the foundation of "fire on the ground" in WoW. You just get out. The faster you are, the less damage you take, and the more your healers will like you. Here there's no distinction - "barely got out" and "didn't even bother" = the same punishment (barely being punished because on the servers, you're still inside it).

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That's the point SE missed by a mile.
It's kinda rare for WoW (and WoW does not nor did it ever have such godawful netcode/positioning problems) to have the entire fight designed around bomb-type AoEs.

In fact, one of the very few offenders - the notorious Heigan "Safety Dance" the Unclean was nerfed into the ground precisely *because* you had to memorize the dance steps to survive. It's not "fun", it's routine, extremely repetitive and annoying.

This is not the case with FFXIV's Titan fights, because you can't just learn the steps, you need to memorize the entire fight and pretty much pray you don't get any lag.

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Originally Posted by Ecks007

Stuff based on presumption

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An easy fight can be BS. Winning or not winning has nothing to do with this subject. Titan HM is easy, but he's still BS.

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Originally Posted by Ri_ri

It's not about being able to beat it or not. It's about the grueling proccess of memorizing a fight that's more AoE and I wouldn't enjoy... To me, it wasn't fun on HM, won't change now.
I said no creativity because I think "more AoE" is the easiest way of adding difficulty. And SE as been using it way too much for everything, even leveling content.

AoE in my opinion should complement mechanics, not be the mechanic. For example, look at Garuda EM... it simply makes you move, on a fight that you don't want to move thanks to LoS attacks and damage check.
That's the foundation of "fire on the ground" in WoW. You just get out. The faster you are, the less damage you take, and the more your healers will like you. Here there's no distinction - "barely got out" and "didn't even bother" = the same punishment (barely being punished because on the servers, you're still inside it).

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SE doesnt know that gray colors exist is black or white , life or death.....its a retarded way imho to implement "harder" bosses....u punish ppl with high ping , or poor reflexes and thats it...because to be fair Titan is just learning a pattern and thats it....

Titan is a boss that u get angry after wiping no matter what , in others bosses i dont mind wiping , we just retry and np, in titan ppl like to blame every1 , because u failed at plumes , because X got kicked out...if a tank or healer is dead, ppl just jump off , and after 5 wipes ppl start playing the blaming game ,and party members start to feel nervous and fail more at mechanics....and party rage at them harder....

isnt fun to be in a titan party even with FC members....

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Originally Posted by Hitome

This is quite a fun fight. Healed and DPS'd it.

I clear Twintania weekly as well. Screw up on twisters? You're done less you want to waste the healer or summoner's time battle ressing your sorry butt. If you are a DPS class, you just gimped the dreadknight take down as well.

Maybe get gud?



Bet you 100k, Mits, that he uses the DBM equivalent for Twin. AKA: don't need to think about it to win with an App telling you everything to do.

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Ouch, can't even be happy for people that clear t5, let alone accuse them of using a app that states the same thing that a focus target would. Forgive me if you sound childish

But seriously, thread isn't about my experiences with twintania, its about titan. This is about as artificial difficulty as you can get, check out this link it gives the same reasoning I do. There's a BIG difference between content that is "hard, and content that is "overpunishing" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ea6U...utu.be&t=2m10s

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Originally Posted by Doo

I'm sure it can but often than not it will result in a wipe. That's my point in general. Maybe it's different if you find 8 players that play too much and play together it will become easier to do but that's a whole lot of dedication. That's pretty rare to find in this game with the way it's currently designed where most things are solo friendly. I do enjoy the fights when I find very good players to play with but the problem is that you shouldn't need everyone to be at a high skill level in order to take tackle hard content. I prefer it the way most others mmo does it where the more skilled guy has a bigger effect on the fight to help the lower ones. It will result in a lot less run buying.

I think Titan dfers will understand what I'm saying more because the chances of beating it with randoms is like .001 percent.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post1730294

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1) Titan Extreme. Extreme. Eeeeeeeeextreeeeeeeeeeeeme. I don't think that word means what you think it means

2) I did 4 random DF queues on Titan EX aside from the times I attempted it with either my Coil static or a group made from a LS. Each of those 4 DF queues saw us consistently advance to the last phase and progress to, on average, 30-40% of health, with one attempt putting us at less than 10%. I never ever ever EEEEEVER saw that kind of consistent success in a DF random group for Titan HM, even months later. Yet, it was happening with DF pugs less than 2 weeks into Titan EX being available.

3) Seriously, did you just say the sentence "You shouldn't need everyone to be at a high skill level in order to tackle hard content"? If it doesn't require a high skill level to complete, it's not hard content.

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Originally Posted by ZeroRains

Ouch, can't even be happy for people that clear t5, let alone accuse them of using a app that states the same thing that a focus target would. Forgive me if you sound childish

But seriously, thread isn't about my experiences with twintania, its about titan. This is about as artificial difficulty as you can get, check out this link it gives the same reasoning I do. There's a BIG difference between content that is "hard, and content that is "overpunishing" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ea6U...utu.be&t=2m10s

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I'm still failing to see how Twintania is less punishing than Titan Extreme. It takes most groups 12-16 hours of hard learning for Twintania (to down it at least) whereas Titan can be done in just 3-4.

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Originally Posted by Avalon_Albrook

1) Titan Extreme. Extreme. Eeeeeeeeextreeeeeeeeeeeeme. I don't think that word means what you think it means

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1) Next it will be IT'S HYPPERRR HYPPPER EX.

2) So did you beat it with those Dfers?

3) Yes I did, like most hard, extreme, hyper content in other mmos.

If it's not fun, why are you still playing?
Go do something else.

ITT: hardcore players are crying like those "dirty filthy casuals" they despised so much.


so much for FFxiV hardcore community, who constantly cried how easy everything is...then when met with punishing mechanics, they cry that
"its too hard" "punishing" and etc. LOL

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Originally Posted by astrobearthe2nd

ITT: hardcore players are crying like those "dirty filthy casuals" they despised so much.


so much for FFxiV hardcore community, who constantly cried how easy everything is...then when met with punishing mechanics, they cry that
"its too hard" "punishing" and etc. LOL

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Because there's a fine line between hardcore and tedious.
Learning a fight with various interesting mechanics is fun. Overcoming them can be hardcore.
Learning to pre-dodge AoEs like a trained monkey for 15 minutes, wiping and beginning anew if one of 8 people lagged is not fun, which is the reason this thread was created in the first place.
Simple, no?

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Originally Posted by Xenobius

Because there's a fine line between hardcore and tedious.
Learning a fight with various interesting mechanics is fun. Overcoming them can be hardcore.
Learning to pre-dodge AoEs like a trained monkey for 15 minutes, wiping and beginning anew if one of 8 people lagged is not fun, which is the reason this thread was created in the first place.
Simple, no?

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<3 you man my words exactly

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Originally Posted by ZeroRains

This game heavily relies on Instant Kill Mechanics to make content difficult. Titan is the only fight IN THE ENTIRE GAME that has the possibility to completely remove you from the fight. On top of pretty much every action he does being an instant kill.

Constant dodging is not only trivial, but frustrating when if you screw up one time your done. I clear twintania weekly, and even twisters aren't as punishing as landslide. Sick of this being considered "fun" Content when half the people have difficulty getting out of ridiculous plumes. Please stop with all these instant kill mechanics that are way to over punishing.

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Go back to WoW!

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Originally Posted by Nightlund

Go back to WoW!

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Go back to the best selling, most popular, paved the way for most modern mmos of this decade? And you make it sound like its a bad thing ;/

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Originally Posted by Xenobius

Because there's a fine line between hardcore and tedious.
Learning a fight with various interesting mechanics is fun. Overcoming them can be hardcore.
Learning to pre-dodge AoEs like a trained monkey for 15 minutes, wiping and beginning anew if one of 8 people lagged is not fun, which is the reason this thread was created in the first place.
Simple, no?

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Best post I've read in here.

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Learning to pre-dodge AoEs

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The only people who have to predodge the weight/landslide are those who suffer from terrible lag. Even with 300ms you have more than enough time to get out of them when you don't expect them

O my goodness... all those "..go back to xyz..", "..you shouldn't be playing..", "...get good.." , "..quit whining..", "...*insert epeen enlarging comments of how 1337 they are.." etc post.

Seriously, you guys wonder what is wrong with the community?

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Originally Posted by HumsterMKX

O my goodness... all those "..go back to xyz..", "..you shouldn't be playing..", "...get good.." , "..quit whining..", "...*insert epeen enlarging comments of how 1337 they are.." etc post.

Seriously, you guys wonder what is wrong with the community?

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First day on the internet huh?

I had fun learning the titan extreme fighting and figuring out how to beat it. It was extremely satisfying to watch him bite the dust when we delivered the final blow.

The people who cry "go back to ___" or "just quit" or whatever other disparaging comments to make people leave are always the first ones to cry when suddenly their game of choice isn't doing so well because the customers all left.

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Originally Posted by hallena

The only people who have to predodge the weight/landslide are those who suffer from terrible lag. Even with 300ms you have more than enough time to get out of them when you don't expect them

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I guess SE employees and some of the forum community live in a parallel universe where every member of every raid group has direct cables connecting their gaming rigs to FFXIV servers...

Because in our world, if you're lucky enough to have one too many hops between you and Montreal, or live across Atlantic from the datacenter your packets go through a maze of different carriers, and 300ms multiplied by a packet loss here and there equals death with how SE's "wonderful" network code works. I have a friend who had farmed the hell out of Vanilla, TBC, WoTLK and Cata fights in WoW, and the moment he saw Titan EX video he said "screw this, I'm not touching this fight with or without WTFast", because he could record a video of dodging a landslide and flying off in a direction perpendicular to the one it was cast any day being an excellent player otherwise. You can design fights built around tight dodging, sure - but only if

a) Your network code and datacenter placement do not hinder the players
b) Tight dodging is NOT the only gimmick of the entire fight.

I was wondering when an extreme version of Titan complaint threads would appear.

It was only a matter of time. I find the fight pretty fun, though not the funnest.

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Originally Posted by ZeroRains

Go back to the best selling, most popular, paved the way for most modern mmos of this decade? And you make it sound like its a bad thing ;/

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Trust me, after playing it for many years and watching it get progressively worse it is a bad thing.

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Originally Posted by Xenobius

This is not the case with FFXIV's Titan fights, because you can't just learn the steps, you need to memorize the entire fight and pretty much pray you don't get any lag.

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You don't need to memorize the entire fight at all. At least not Titan HM.
All you need for Titan HM is basically:
1) Learn where to run when bombs show up
2) Post-heart, if you have bad lag, remember after which moves the plumes show up

I have a very "reactive" playstyle, and with those two points managed to clear Titan HM in no time when I actually attempted it.
As a healer I was very busy, but at no point did I feel any need to memorize the entire fight.
Why lock yourself into patterns anyway when none of your teammates are going to follow the same pattern every time?
My ping is around 200ms at best.
Titan Extreme sounds like it will be fun when I get there.

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Originally Posted by Nekodar

You don't need to memorize the entire fight at all. At least not Titan HM.

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If you live far enough/have too many connection hops to turn Titan fights into this, you either pre-move or die.

Can someone that play a lot of mmos answer me this.

Is FFXIV as bad as other mmos when it comes to buying runs? Like to the point where bigger FCs act like they're gil sellers spamming to sell runs.

Patch 2.2 is going to bring Titan Super Extreme where there is a 2x2 pixel square that you can stand on to be safe from the landslide. Hope you noobs are up to the challenge!

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Originally Posted by Xenobius

If you live far enough/have too many connection hops to turn Titan fights into this, you either pre-move or die.

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if you look she was still standing in the aoe when he finished casting landslide though she was out before the animation went out. Thats why she still got hit its based off cast time not animation.

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Originally Posted by Xenobius

If you live far enough/have too many connection hops to turn Titan fights into this, you either pre-move or die.

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It's funny, because that video is my exact experience with Titan, but not with HM or Extreme, only the story encounter.
The story encounter for Titan is total bullshit for some reason, yet HM and Extreme are damn near flawless.

Your complaint is then that SE server's don't update fast enough.

Even if they don't, this fight is still doable. If you don't find it fun, really just stop doing it. There is absolutely no need to complete Titan Ex. People have killed everything pre-2.1 with 2.0 gear. You can do it too.

You want a shiny level 90 weapon? Some of them that are best in slot till you can take down the hardest fight in the game? You're going to need to work for it. Geesh it's like you want everything handed to you in this game. It's not even about hardcore or casual stuff. I've seen plenty of party finder Garudas do just fine and people are just getting into Titan. I expect they'll be able to down it within a couple weeks through party finder just like Titan HM. And you know what's after Titan? A joke.

Why are people so afraid of overcoming challenges.

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Originally Posted by Doo

Can someone that play a lot of mmos answer me this.

Is FFXIV as bad as other mmos when it comes to buying runs? Like to the point where bigger FCs act like they're gil sellers spamming to sell runs.

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FFXIV is a themepark PvE MMO, essentially, a hard copy of WoW wrapped in Final Fantasy skin.
If any semblance of endgame content is present in such games (think RIFT, SWTOR etc), every guild capable of making money by carrying buyers through said content sells such runs.
Maybe it wasn't as spammy back in the day, while my guild did sell Ulduar/ICC mounts/achievements all it took was a forum topic and most customers sought us out themselves, but this is nothing new by a long shot.
What's more, while FFXIV is in essence, quite casual (take away the lags/broken mechanics that are overly annoying due to lags and it's not difficult), runs are being sold for gil, and at moderate prices, too.

If it survives long enough and SE coughs up more endgame content made of something else beside "dodge this; repeat" you will start seeing people selling runs/drops for astronomical gil amounts at first, and then for real money immediately later. It wasn't uncommon at all in WoW when it reached it's peak of PvE complexity around the middle of WoTLK for "buyers" to wire hundreds of dollars just to let them in on some hard content.

ITT: Lots of bad players whining about Titan.

If this is the reaction to Titan extreme, then imagine the reaction to Ifrit extreme XD.

Personally I don't have the guts at present to tackle garuda extreme, but like with HM titan I'm sure we will all get the hang of it and it will be less scary. Titan has always been a very predictable encounter.

Finally a Titan EM rage thread, I was kinda expecting it.

I think Titan EM is partially fun to me but also stressful. I agree the unforgiving situation if even one mate goes down could result with a painful wipe. However, if you think about the word "Extreme" I think it has met the expectations of many people.

Extreme indeed. A very crazy fight I must say but a worthy challenge for even the most hardcore players. I don't think a nerf is needed, people should just stay focus on the reward that awaits in front of you after beating Titan EM (reward is your very own primal i90 weapon and it sure is awesome). Even after watching the video preview, I knew that its going to be something crazy but if you want to gain something really good in game or in fact your BiS, you have to be ready for this.

this brings back memories when people were starting on titan HM lol. its an easy fight. get used to the mechanics. its the same thing over and over again per phase. the real challenge is finding people that can survive it along with you.

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Originally Posted by Chiramu

If this is the reaction to Titan extreme, then imagine the reaction to Ifrit extreme XD.

Personally I don't have the guts at present to tackle garuda extreme, but like with HM titan I'm sure we will all get the hang of it and it will be less scary. Titan has always been a very predictable encounter.

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Ifrit extreme is sort of a little easier compared to Titan Extreme because you have a wider area of movement and don't have to be afraid of falling down. If you watch the video by MrHappy, it does look easier but don't look down on it, Ifrit nukes are really painful.

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Originally Posted by Chiramu

If this is the reaction to Titan extreme, then imagine the reaction to Ifrit extreme XD.

Personally I don't have the guts at present to tackle garuda extreme, but like with HM titan I'm sure we will all get the hang of it and it will be less scary. Titan has always been a very predictable encounter.

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That's part of the problem I find with all content to date. All endgame fights, if not all fights operate on a strict script that once you learn said script, it's just a matter of dancing to the tune correctly and suddenly content stops being a challenge and starts being a chore. It's becoming more and more of a concern that the developers of boss encounters are either, lacking in creativity or too limited by the games mechanics and systems to be able to provide truly dynamic encounters.

For example most endgame fights so far (OmegaX, Twinania although you can subvert Twintania's / heal through it rather easily, TitanX, IfritX and to a lesser extent GarudaX with the spiny plume) employ the same unimaginative tank swapping mechanic in order to justify DF's need for two tanks as part of the line up.

It's fun on a personal level to perform well, but not fun depending on other crappy players. After trying for about 8 hours over the last couple days, I finally beat it today. And it feels GOOD! I understand it's natural to want it to be made easier, but if it is, there's really not much else to keep trying for in the game. The same thing happened with Twintania. We practiced it for hours and hours, and we finally beat it. It was worth all the effort, and it feels good when it finally comes together. If everything was easy, there'd be nothing left to do. Keep trying!

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For example in most endgame fights so far employ the same unimaginative tank swapping mechanic in order to justify DF's need for two tanks as part of the line up.

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Not that I want to justify abusing the stacking tank debuff mechanic, but there's only so much you can do with multiple tanks in small group raids. Damage split (Hydra), armor debuffs, adds to tank - and that's pretty much it. Sure, you can design crazy stuff like the Netherspite encounter or proper council-type fights like WoW's ODS but... It takes proper designers and time which SE doesn't have it seems. I have no idea why they can't modify a few bits here and there, fine-tuning some fights to only have one tank (and allowing stuff like Atramedes encounter), but I guess their whole system is as unflexible as it gets. So unless something changes drastically, we can expect more AoEs, more forced tank-swapping and the like.