Poll: Seamless+CopyPaste VS. Zones+Variety

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Originally Posted by Keith_Dragoon

I had no problem "zoning" in XI or any other game especially when a more beautiful area is awaiting me on the other side. My only issue with XI's zoning was that chat that gets lost in "limbo" while zoning, not sure how the other games worked around this but XI is the only one that I recall that zoning loses all chat that was sent or recieved while zoning.

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I think it's based on the chat server being separate from the zone servers, so while one is loading new data, the other is continuing to stream chat text to you. Or, perhaps, it queues any chat text and then updates it once the zone loading is complete.

When I play Age of Conan, which also uses zones, I can zone into a new area and when I load into the new one, all the discussion that took place while I was zoning will be updated in the chat log. I won't have missed a thing.

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Originally Posted by Preypacer

I think it's based on the chat server being separate from the zone servers, so while one is loading new data, the other is continuing to stream chat text to you. Or, perhaps, it queues any chat text and then updates it once the zone loading is complete.

When I play Age of Conan, which also uses zones, I can zone into a new area and when I load into the new one, all the discussion that took place while I was zoning will be updated in the chat log. I won't have missed a thing.

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no your right The chat system have it own server like FFXIV the chat is by itself so when you zone you still getting chat. The game server could be d/c and you still can talk to others without issue to the game fully D/c you.

sadly ffxi did not have this tho ; ;

The list of games that achieves seamlessness and variety is longer than I care to list, and I'd only invite people flaming me saying "This isn't WoW/Rift/whatever" if I did start writing that list, so I will not.

However, it is clearly technically possible to achieve both variety and seamlessness.

Citing texture memory as the issue for having repetitive physical features also points to issues within the engine itself. You, theoretically, should be able to map textures onto other landscape models.

I voted for the second option, purely to get some variety in the game. However I must emphasise that it is technically possible to achieve both, and I am unsure as to the actual reasons they are unable to...

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Originally Posted by ObeiKinstar

The biggest complaint I have right now is when you zone in the areas like thanalan to black shroud, you instantly from arid climate to tropical forest??? what??? how did that happen??? I would be really happy with a zone in the middle to take you naturally from one climate zone to the next to make things more fluid.

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Black Shroud isn't a tropical forest.

But you're right, the change is rather drastic. Though, there was the same thing in XI, so... nothing new there, really.

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Originally Posted by Preypacer

Black Shroud isn't a tropical forest.

But you're right, the change is rather drastic. Though, there was the same thing in XI, so... nothing new there, really.

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Can you give an example? I can't think of any as extreme as Thanalan > The Black Shroud. Qufim and the northlands maybe but the lore kind of explains it.

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Originally Posted by Demacia

Can you give an example? I can't think of any as extreme as Thanalan > The Black Shroud. Qufim and the northlands maybe but the lore kind of explains it.

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I remember LaThein to Valkurm was similar (not so drastic though). In any case it would be neat to have a better transition between zones.

I'd prefer option #2. Split up the existing areas or make them smaller and add more variety. My problem with the zones isn't the "copy/paste" which I rarely actually even notice. My biggest problem is that the zones currently just feel empty. It feels like there should be more unique set pieces about. Farms, ruins, camps, etc...

Hell the R20 Miners class quest SPOILERS highlight to read: mentions an ancient city once being present in Thanalan. Where's the remains of it? Shouldn't chunks of it still be there, even if ruins? END SPOILERS.

The could even break down parts of the zones for transition between major zones. There should be a transition between the Thanalan desert and the forest of The Black Shroud.

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Originally Posted by Munba

I remember LaThein to Valkurm was similar (not so drastic though). In any case it would be neat to have a better transition between zones.

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It explains Thanalan used to be more forested than what it is now. Dunes wasn't a desert despite it's name so the transition was less dramatic and you can see beyond the zone line anyway -- in XI we're "skipping" the transition portion of the maps, just like Sanctuary of Zi`tah > Ro`Mave you can see the cerment hall of gods from Zi`tah at the zone line.

So they got better about transitions in the expansions and the vanilla areas were the biggest culprits.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

Like this post if you want

A world that has smaller zones, with loading time in between zones, that allows the game to load a greater variety of textures per zone and give the artists more leeway to make the environments more detailed and less monotonous.

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I want a bigger world, whit bigger maps and bigger variety without any loading at all.
Tera successfully accomplished this task, and it's even less hardware demanding than this.

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Originally Posted by Matty86

I want a bigger world, whit bigger maps and bigger variety without any loading at all.
Tera successfully accomplished this task, and it's even less hardware demanding than this.

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Lets not go through game engines again. Please read the entire topic. lol (joking, but we've discussed this plenty)

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Originally Posted by Matty86

I want a bigger world, whit bigger maps and bigger variety without any loading at all.
Tera successfully accomplished this task, and it's even less hardware demanding than this.

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Yeah, I know Tera can do that, and it's a damn shame that FF14 can't, but we gotta work with what we got. Just give it time and it can be better.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

Yeah, I know Tera can do that, and it's a damn shame that FF14 can't, but we gotta work with what we got. Just give it time and it can be better.

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Especially because Tera doesnt have those PS3 limitations. So just for the sake of having a variety, I'm going to stick with having many smaller zones.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

Yeah, I know Tera can do that, and it's a damn shame that FF14 can't, but we gotta work with what we got. Just give it time and it can be better.

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Tera does not look as good as FFXIV in the sense of FFXIV using more GPU power FFXIV can't even be run without a real video card :( top of that FFXIV is not yet update to DX10 and DX11 when that happen this game would even need more powerful GPU but by then at least 6000 and the 7000 would be cheap and players can buy them without issue.

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Originally Posted by Zenaku

Tera does not look as good as FFXIV in the sense of FFXIV using more GPU power FFXIV can't even be run without a real video card :( top of that FFXIV is not yet update to DX10 and DX11 when that happen this game would even need more powerful GPU but by then at least 6000 and the 7000 would be cheap and players can buy them without issue.

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It's debatable if FFXIV looks better than Tera, personally I don't think it does not overal anyway, FFXIV has great character models but it has no object shadowing or real time lighting which for me breaks the immersion of a game.

It's unlikely that FFXIV will see a direct X update either, and the reason why FFXIV requires such a beast of a PC (although it doesn't in all fairness) is because the engine is still not optimised very well.

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Originally Posted by Demacia

Can you give an example? I can't think of any as extreme as Thanalan > The Black Shroud. Qufim and the northlands maybe but the lore kind of explains it.

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Konschtat Highlands (windy, high country) zoning directly into Valkurm Dunes (tropical beach) is one such example from that game.

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Originally Posted by Preypacer

Konschtat Highlands (windy, high country) zoning directly into Valkurm Dunes (tropical beach) is one such example from that game.

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Both areas still have similar rocky textures so it isn't THAT big of a transition. Only thing that makes it a little iffy are palm trees in Dunes.

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Originally Posted by Demacia

Both areas still have similar rocky textures so it isn't THAT big of a transition. Only thing that makes it a little iffy are palm trees in Dunes.

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One's a tropical beach, at sea level, with white striated stone, white sand and palm trees.

The other is a highland area, likely several hundred feet above sea level, no sand or palm trees to be seen anywhere, different terrain types, very windy and rainy.... There's no a hint of anything even remotely tropical about the area... not even sub-tropical.

They're two entirely different environments.

Valkurm Dunes Pic
Konschtat Highlands Pic

There's no similarity.

That they have "similar looking stone" is not something that "makes them similar" in terms of climate or region. You have a pretty flexible sense of "what's similar" if "similar looking stone" is all you require to deem two otherwise completely different areas as "not being that different".

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Originally Posted by Preypacer

One's a tropical beach, at sea level, with white striated stone, white sand and palm trees.

The other is a highland area, likely several hundred feet above sea level, no sand or palm trees to be seen anywhere, different terrain types, very windy and rainy.... There's no a hint of anything even remotely tropical about the area... not even sub-tropical.

They're two entirely different environments.

Valkurm Dunes
Konschtat Highlands

There's no similarity.

That they have "similar looking stone" is not something that "makes them similar" in terms of climate or region. You have a pretty flexible sense of "what's similar" if "similar looking stone" is all you require to deem two otherwise completely different areas as "not being that different".

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Fair enough. I just don't feel that it's such an enormous transition compared to the ones seen in XIV. Maybe that's just me.

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Originally Posted by Demacia

Fair enough. I just don't feel that it's such an enormous transition compared to the ones seen in XIV. Maybe that's just me.

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Depends on what type of difference you're looking for. If the similarities you see between Valkurm and Konschtat are that they're both wide-open areas... then I can see that.

In that regard, let's take Meriphataud Mts. leading into Zitah. Wide open, dry and arid canyon land connecting directly with a massive, misty and very "concealed" ancient forest. Perhaps that's more in line with what you're looking for comparison-wise.

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Originally Posted by Preypacer

Depends on what type of difference you're looking for. If the similarities you see between Valkurm and Konschtat are that they're both wide-open areas... then I can see that.

In that regard, let's take Meriphataud Mts. leading into Zitah. Wide open, dry and arid canyon land connecting directly with a massive, misty and very "concealed" ancient forest. Perhaps that's more in line with what you're looking for comparison-wise.

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You make a good point. I completely forgot to consider Meriphataud to Zi'tah. Either way, I simply want more variety in XIV's world.

This is an example of a seamless MMO:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yraYIpxxLoI

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Originally Posted by Krym

This is an example of a seamless MMO:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yraYIpxxLoI

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The landscape looks really nice, love the island, although i hate the character models and the animations.

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Originally Posted by Mack

The landscape looks really nice, love the island, although i hate the character models and the animations.

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Yeah but that was just how a seamless MMORPG does it right. :P

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

Like this post if you want

A world that has smaller zones, with loading time in between zones, that allows the game to load a greater variety of textures per zone and give the artists more leeway to make the environments more detailed and less monotonous.

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Yeah, I'll take variety over seemless; though I still only consider TBS to be the only area where there's a lot of copy/pasted assets (which even then, I've seen every terrain archetype out there to know one can only do so much in a game since it'll eventually become copy/paste work). I personally liked the idea of FFXI's zones anyways; what got me, like others, is what happened with the chat system upon zoning.

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Originally Posted by AeraLucis

What's the point of a seamless world anyway when everyone just ports everywhere. Still have to sit through a loading screen half the time I go anywhere.

Option #2

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Definitely.

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Originally Posted by Mack

The landscape looks really nice, love the island, although i hate the character models and the animations.

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Well that is kind of beside the point.

Anyway, XLgames are in fact fixing their animations (they hired the guy from Red Dead Redemption just recently). But I dont think they will improve the character models, having said that.

180+ replies and still no word from SE that they are even listening I think the poll is quite clear what the public thinks. All they've announced is that they'll do texture tweaks to the ps3 version nothing more.

The game is already "zoned". I went with option 2. Also, art style > polygon count. Look at Guild Wars 2, tell me it's not a beautiful game.

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Originally Posted by Darkoon

The game is already "zoned". I went with option 2. Also, art style > polygon count. Look at Guild Wars 2, tell me it's not a beautiful game.

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"it's not a beautiful game"

And im not just saying that to be contrary.

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Originally Posted by Vesperia

Well that is kind of beside the point.

Anyway, XLgames are in fact fixing their animations (they hired the guy from Red Dead Redemption just recently). But I dont think they will improve the character models, having said that.

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I understand its to show how seamless works, but there is a compromise there imo...I don't think any machine can handle a completely seamless FFXIV with the graphics that game has now.

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Originally Posted by Mack

I understand its to show how seamless works, but there is a compromise there imo...I don't think any machine can handle a completely seamless FFXIV with the graphics that game has now.

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but.... FFXIV is high on graphics... but also not a seemless game, so what are you talking about? we still very much have zone lines like in FFXI, the zones are just massive this time.

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Originally Posted by Dreadnought

but.... FFXIV is high on graphics... but also not a seemless game, so what are you talking about? we still very much have zone lines like in FFXI, the zones are just massive this time.

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What's so difficult to understand? the link was showing what a seamless game should be like, I said that there's a compromise with the graphics however since FFXIV probably can't pull off a completely seamless world because its got better graphics, unless it upped the PC requirements. That's it. I'm not arguing anything, I'm not disagreeing with anyone, I was just talking.

well u can put some "doors" (2-3s loading screens) , here and there (i really dont mind some loadings)

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Originally Posted by Seif

180+ replies and still no word from SE that they are even listening I think the poll is quite clear what the public thinks. All they've announced is that they'll do texture tweaks to the ps3 version nothing more.

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Seriously, what the heck do you expect? That SE decides to completely scrap the game and redo the whole engine, because of a forum poll?

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Originally Posted by Naqaj

Seriously, what the heck do you expect? That SE decides to completely scrap the game and redo the whole engine, because of a forum poll?

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"I expect them to listen to me and do everything I ask. I don't care that it would take a very long time...no wait I do care it's supposed to only take a day to redo every map in the game, the poll doesn't lie. We want better zones and it better not take longer than a week!"

They didn't respond because they know if they say it would take awhile to do most people would do nothing but bitch about it.

One thing i will never understand is why Tanaka even wanted this game to be seamless if it was going to be released on the PS3 as well. Load times aren't much of a problem really, its not like you are the only one that has to wait..

It's what people wanted because they were (GASP) tired of zones and "EVERY OTHER MMO HAS SEAMLESS WORLD".

>.>

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Originally Posted by Elexia

It's what people wanted because they were (GASP) tired of zones and "EVERY OTHER MMO HAS SEAMLESS WORLD".

>.>

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I think that was just Tanaka's decision alone though.

Besides, many seamless MMORPGs can't even be released on consoles because of the stress they would cause. To me, im more for a variety of zones. Even if some zones don't really have BGM, ex. Tahrongi Canyon.

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Originally Posted by Mack

I understand its to show how seamless works, but there is a compromise there imo...I don't think any machine can handle a completely seamless FFXIV with the graphics that game has now.

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Shouldn't seamless games have better graphics, though?

FFXIV faces memory limitations because it has zones - everything loaded in at one time.

A seamless game would not face memory limitations because the 'zones' would only be loaded in within a certain radius around the player.

Thats what I thought, but maybe Crystal tools doesn't handel streaming well, like unreal 2.x so you get very memory intensive loading patterns like in lineage2.

CT handles it perfectly fine. FFXIV is horribly unoptimized. The whole point of the CT engine was to mainly do seamless transitions (CS > battle, Day>Night etc.) xD