SMN - knowing the class (part 1)

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Originally Posted by Kevee

-No parser properly tracks DoTs because they are not in the combat log. At all.

-No they don't. Now, I'm not saying we're stronger than BRDs(they are the top DPS), but Bio II is 350 potency vs Windbite's 320, and Miasma is 320 potency versus Venomous Bite's 310. Then we also have Thunder and Bio which are 240 a piece.

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bio 2 takes 30 seconds and miasma 24 seconds to deliver that potency vs. windbites and venomous bites 18 seconds. really, how can math be that hard for so many?

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-Why are you doing healing?

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because fail pugs are fail, and because i'd rather throw out a sustain than try to resummon my pet mid battle. i have not gotten around to levelling thm up to quick cast yet due to the damned login issues

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Originally Posted by Dixa

bio 2 takes 30 seconds and miasma 24 seconds to deliver that potency vs. windbites and venomous bites 18 seconds. really, how can math be that hard for so many?

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Really, how can math be that hard? Bio II and Miasma will do more damage/GCD but less DPS/GCD.

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Originally Posted by Dixa

because fail pugs are fail, and because i'd rather throw out a sustain than try to resummon my pet mid battle. i have not gotten around to levelling thm up to quick cast yet due to the damned login issues

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I agree, but proper positioning greatly limits when, or if, you need to heal your pet.


I hit my daily limit, so:

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Originally Posted by Dixa

dmg per gcd has little meaning when a 30 second dot does ultimately less damage than an 18 second dot, especially when you have to hard-cast that 30 and 24 second dot while the two 18 second dots are done entirely on the move.

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It doesn't do less damage.

It has a higher potency. It does more damage.

It does less DPS.

Something else to note:

Just found a bug during AV, or what I hope is a bug. When you Contagion your current target and Bane to spread the higher DoT timers around, if the 15% chance to reset the DoT timer procs, then it will reset to the lower timer.

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Originally Posted by Dixa

this is where simple math is failing you. it does less damage.

bio 2 does 350 potency in 30 seconds. windbite does 320 in 18 seconds.

in 30 seconds, windbite does 533 potency

in 30 seconds, misma does 387 potency

in 30 seconds, venomous bite does 516 potency.

summoner dots are less damage over time and less dps over time. which is a dumb thing to say - given the same amount of time, the ability with the higher dps does the most damage. basic, basic math.

math. it's what's for dinner.

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1 GCD: Bio II - 350 Potency
1 GCD: Windbite - 320 Potency

For 1 GCD you're doing more damage and less DPS. If you want to add in a second GCD worth of skills(or 12s worth of Ruin) then add it in.

They are more damage/GCD and less DPS/GCD. This is important because we don't need to apply them as much, which lowers your DPS every time you need to re-apply the DoT.

And why this is important? This means every 18s we have an "extra" GCD, as compared to BRD, where we're not applying a DoT. The DoT is still functioning, and it lets us do other things, potentially the superior thunder/bio/miasma II(aoe), or even Ruin II + off GCD skill instead.


Again, I'm NOT saying SMN is stronger than BRD. It's not, but you're not getting why Bio II is more damage than Windbite. For a single GCD, it does more damage and less DPS. And that's important, because of the things I said above.

Edit: And not to mention RS benefits longer DoTs more, of which we can extend our DoT timers beyond the base.

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Originally Posted by Kevee

Really, how can math be that hard? Bio and Miasma will do more damage/GCD but less DPS/GCD.

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dmg per gcd has little meaning when a 30 second dot does ultimately less damage than an 18 second dot, especially when you have to hard-cast that 30 and 24 second dot while the two 18 second dots are done entirely on the move.

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It doesn't do less damage.

It has a higher potency. It does more damage.

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this is where simple math is failing you. it does less damage.

bio 2 does 350 potency in 30 seconds. windbite does 320 in 18 seconds.

in 30 seconds, windbite does 533 potency

in 30 seconds, misma does 387 potency

in 30 seconds, venomous bite does 516 potency.

summoner dots are less damage over time and less dps over time. which is a dumb thing to say - given the same amount of time, the ability with the higher dps does the most damage. basic, basic math.

math. it's what's for dinner.



you continue to add dmg per gcd. this matters nothing at all.

so you get more per gcd casting summoner dots over the two archer dots. are you making some sort of half-assed assumption that the archer would never EVER refresh hit dots as they expire and ONLY A SUMMONER would EVER refresh their dots as they expire? are you referring to our filler to add to the dots? and our filler is? our filler is crap compared to the several 150+ potency abilities the archer is bringing to bear while keeping 100% uptime on their dots, some of which are off the gcd and others are guaranteed crits effectively increasing the potency by another 50%.

the fact is our base dot potency istoo low,ruin damage is too low and pet damage is too low. you don't have to be a math wizard to realize this, but any mmorpg veteran who looks at the numbers and watches/experiences how the classes play will know this. this is why bard beats blm in every encounter even though blm has insanely hard hitting abilities.

bard is the level that all dps should be performing at, whether through better skill or equivalency in abilities. no amount of skill will make up for the deficiencies of this class right now.

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Originally Posted by nimuniverse

So you are saying a malboro in av or drakes in (I forgot name but lvl 44/47 dungeons) die in 20-25 secs? Your party must be wearing godly gear. Let's say that's the truth. If that's the case, when you are shooting one at a time, SMN has applied DoTs on all if them. So first mob died in 20-25 sec, meaning 2nd mob already took 20-25sec of health loss and 3rd mob lost 40-45 sec of health when party get to them. Isn't that better than having to attack mobs with full health? Based on your 20-25 sec rate, then 3rd mob already lost like 60%+ more health.

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don't bring bane into a single target conversation. bards have better on demand aoe with higher potency, insta cast and their aoe provides the same debuff that our eye for an eye does. if a bard aoe'd the same stuff you were using bane on, the bard would be the group tank.

What are the best pets to use? I only just got my ifrit egi before the 1017 issue hit me. So how do the other pets stack up? Also is there a higher class of craby? I've seem blue and topaz are they the only ones?

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Originally Posted by nimuniverse

95% of dungeons have 2-3 mobs for each fight. They take around 75-90secs to die (I timed it based on the Bio II DoT's, since it required me to cast more than 2 times).

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Y'know, I was with you right up to about here. I haven't seen many trash mobs that take more than about 20-25 seconds to die. It's extremely rare that I cast Windbiter more than once per mob, because by the time it wears off there's not enough health remaining to make it worth the cooldown. If mobs are really taking you this long, I have to wonder just how low your DPS is. . .

So you are saying a malboro in av or drakes in (I forgot name but lvl 44/47 dungeons) die in 20-25 secs? Your party must be wearing godly gear. Let's say that's the truth. If that's the case, when you are shooting one at a time, SMN has applied DoTs on all if them. So first mob died in 20-25 sec, meaning 2nd mob already took 20-25sec of health loss and 3rd mob lost 40-45 sec of health when party get to them. Isn't that better than having to attack mobs with full health? Based on your 20-25 sec rate, then 3rd mob already lost like 60%+ more health.

Another thing about threat meter, I have been in instances where tank died (wrong position) and the second person boss go to or adds go to is me. Yet I didn't have heal or sustain. Maybe other dps I was in party with sucked. But I am under assumption that boss goes to whoever did the most damage after tank's agro. Also there have been times healer or other dps died and I have to raise and heal in absence of healer.
It's all about someone knowing how to play. I come from old school mmo (where you died you lose all) so I try my best to play the class well. I don't play like wanna be BLM who spam nothing but ruin and complain cause it doesn't do dmg like BLM.
To the person who mention about fates, I get gold stars even with 20-30 people per fates. On NM fates, I sometimes even pull agro, the ones that give 20k+ exp for doing in Coerthas.

FATEs: The key is immediate targeting of fresh mobs. I get full marks all the time. Like the above poster on NM fights I will sometimes even pull hate.

In general: Not using your DoTs is a BAD idea. Had a SMN in a group with me last night while I was playin on SCH and the one DPS commented on how he was doing a good job keepin the DoTs up only to be told (by the SMN mind you) that those were my DoTs cause he doesn't waste MP on useless spells. *brick wall* Keeping up your DoTs and I mean all of them, especially on boss fights, is a HUGE boost in damage for the team. Also, when with pug groups I have actually kited and finished off several dungeon bosses because well pugs will be pugs. SMN may not have "BAM EPEEN NUMBERS LOOK AT THAT 10K FIRE" (over exaggeration but still), but we have our place and it is a kitten good one, ESPECIALLY with pug groups that are not always the best.

For fates just run into where mobs spawn then spam miasma, tag a mob with bio and bane it. You'll get credit for several of them. Or, get in a FATE group and don't worry about it.

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Originally Posted by nimuniverse

So you are saying a malboro in av or drakes in (I forgot name but lvl 44/47 dungeons) die in 20-25 secs?

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Congratulations finding two exceptions. Only, you're still messing up, because the Malboros in AV are single-target pulls, meaning Bane would be useless. Even the drake pulls end in about 70 seconds, because the drake takes about 30 and the two mobs with them take even less.