Do you really want to see Sky 2.0 in FFXIV?

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Originally Posted by Jynx

You know this entirely depends, I don't consider most instances to take "Skill" unless it's a group going in blind otherwise your only skill required is following a checklist. Following a strategy for a raid is as skilled as claiming a NM.

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Ehhh....not sure I agree here.

Your group can very well have the strategy on hand, but if it's beyond the skill level of your group, then it's not going to do you very well.

It's like having a strategy that says "Run from this move, stun this move and erase this effect.". It all sounds simple enough, but there are really some incapable people out there.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

But your right, teleporting around the world a few times, and having 1-2 decently difficult fights is totally the same as the feeling of accomplishment that getting Sky or Sea was like.

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Except that's what CoP and RotZ were. None of the fights were really difficult, aside from learning the mammet/airship fights, I can't think of an area that I was legitimately stuck on. I'd say that To Kill a Raven was harder than most of FFXI's content. Nael Hard being miles more difficult than lol kiting kirin.

FFXI being called hard is like calling Demon's Souls hard.

It wasn't, it was just unforgiving. I'd rather have legitimately difficult content over content that's the equivalent to tearing out fingernails.

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This game you just need a party thats it, no special preperation is required for any of the fights,

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lol what. You need a party of members who are attentive and have basic reading comprehension, which this game lacks.

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Oh my you call that earned content? Asides from the last few missions the story is a joke as far as even remotely difficult content runs.

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Yeah, I would. You earned it by completing the storyline. Sorry it wasn't time consuming and tedious, I guess?

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Originally Posted by Ruisu

Except that's what CoP and RotZ were. None of the fights were really difficult, aside from learning the mammet/airship fights, I can't think of an area that I was legitimately stuck on. I'd say that To Kill a Raven was harder than most of FFXI's content. Nael Hard being miles more difficult than lol kiting kirin.

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To Kill a Raven was incredibally easy compare to something like the airship or snoll, hell even the Promyvions were a decent challenge. The utter lack of preperation required defeats To Kill a Raven being called "hard" because you can just bang your head into a wall until it breaks (The fight is located in a town for crying out loud)

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Originally Posted by Ruisu

FFXI being called hard is like calling Demon's Souls hard.

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So, a game isn't hard when it's hard? It is unforgiving but you never could say Demon/Dark souls was unfair it punished you for being stupid, in a rush, or just not being smart about things. FFXI was much the same rarely was a fight "Unfair" (Snoll Tzar outstanding, and Promy-dem) But it put a good bit of pressure on your group to preform knowing that it took you more than 12 seconds to get to the fight.

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Originally Posted by Ruisu

It wasn't, it was just unforgiving. I'd rather have legitimately difficult content over content that's the equivalent to tearing out fingernails.

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Stated above, the journey is part of the difficulty. You may call it "Tedious" but it was a effective method of making sure people didn't just walk into a serious fight non-chalantly, it's also perhaps why you feel it wasn't a problem finding people who could "basic reading comprehension" Because the game pretty much weeded the utterly inept out instead of giving them unlimited outlets to continue to be bad. It's part of why punishing bad play encouraged people to get better instead of the game we have right now that encourages people to be as lazy as possible. Christ people wear AF well beyond it's usefullness because being skilled in your class and your gear choices doesn't mean as much as it did in XI.

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Originally Posted by Ruisu

lol what. You need a party of members with basic reading comprehension and who are attentive, which this game lacks.

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This has nothing to do with the low game population it's a symptom of the system they run. Easilly and readilly consumable content with no overarching challenge encourages people to stay bad. The funny thing is the few "Hard" things in the game have such a high barrier to entry as well that playes who want to become better, but aren't at that level yet it's extremly hard to learn when no one gives you a chance.

I can imagine if AV or CC didn't depend on nothing but speed-runs and the best of the best just to accomplish such a feat, or hell having a dungeon with pretty good gear with less harsh requirements for the "Good stuff" appearing gives those new players a chance to grow. This was never a issue in XI because the level curve made most people very comfortable with the roll they played in a party (Dynamis, Limbus, whatever you knew what you were capable of at the end of your leveling cycle) Again a sympton of making level 50 a laughably easy feat.

People may not agree that the "Grind" was the best thing hell even I think it was a tad long, but what we have today? (and presumably in 2.0) is a far cry from making leveling a even meaningfull task.

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Originally Posted by Ruisu

Yeah, I would. You earned it by completing the storyline. Sorry it wasn't time consuming and tedious, I guess?

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Again I've explained that just because something was time consuming it doesn't make it tedious. ROTZ and CoP when released (Especially CoP) had some great challenges that took more than just your time. It took some brainpower, networking with friends, Battle finess, and a hunger to reach the end. XIV lacks the challenge, it lacks the discipline, it lacks the satisfying goal of a job well done.

(Again the final fight you earn has a rediculous barrier of entry as it was designed only for the best of the best, leaving the people who could finish the story withing breaking a sweat left to languish with no real middleground to work with.)

*edit*

Sorry for the long rant, but I hope you see where I'm coming from, and before anyone tries I'm not asking for the exact mechanics or layout of XI quests. I just want a real challenge that has a curve from easy to hard as players grow with the game.

Unfortunatly I feel due to the nature of the "MMO standard" Yoshida is reaching for we wont ever have a game with a real difficulty curve. It will be a race to 50 in the easy-breezy system we will assuredly have in place made for everyone of all skill levels to complete. Then a either easy end-game event, mixed with gurelingly difficult content for the real rewards. They have yet to show the abillity to have relevant content for lower to high tier play growth, Skirmish was a good step in the right direction but it's very small chunk of a larger problem.

It's not that they are doing anything wrong, I just feel the developement team lacks focus on the real issues the game faces and is only dealing with whatever they have infront of them at the time. I have faith in 2.0 but there are of course ways I feel the game could move that I would prefer as a gamer that perhaps the dev team isn't thinking about and at the end of the day that's what we are here for to give them feedback on how we as players think the game needs to evolve.

Whether it takes skill or not, competing for claims - especially back in the days of XI where you had NMs that spawned in 24 hour or even 1 week windows - just wasn't fun. The skill argument is irrelevant; it's a game, and a game is supposed to be fun.

Even with the new primal system, it's not going to be chasing them in the open - it's looking for the instance and the 1st group to enter gets it. Kind of an interesting middle ground.

But yeah, instanced raids really are the way to go with the challenge resting in winning the fight. Who honestly wants to waste hours and hours sitting around just to see someone provoke something faster than you did? All you sadists can go back to playing Everquest, some of us have lives and want to have fun while genuinely being challenged - not having our patience tested.

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Originally Posted by NefGP

All you sadists can go back to playing Everquest, some of us have lives and want to have fun while genuinely being challenged - not having our patience tested.

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Or why not have a comfortable mix of both like a certain MMO we all know...created by the same guys who made this game.

The thing is Nef~ Just because you don't enjoy something it doesn't make it right to say someone who did is a "Sadist" I also never seen anyone asking for just claim wars either it's a hyperbole pulled out too often when people ask for things like worthwhile NM's to come back to the game.

I didn't see anyone ask for 24-1week windows do you?

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Originally Posted by PinkamenaDiane

I seen a lot of posts where people say Sky was great they should bring it back.

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There's a difference between wanting Tu'lia and wanting to see sky. I'm more willing to picture a series of floating islands where we can go from one to the next on the back of our black/flying chocobo or other flying mounts.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

So, a game isn't hard when it's hard? It is unforgiving but you never could say Demon/Dark souls was unfair it punished you for being stupid, in a rush, or just not being smart about things.

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I belive he's refering to a common problem plauging games since they first arrived.

Fake Difficulty: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...FakeDifficulty

FF XI was diffidently filled to the brim with it. It's an easy way to consume more player time which XI was built from the ground up to do. I'm glad Yoshi-P seems to do away with it.

The MMOs that "does away with it" also seem to die off pretty quickly after you hand your players everything and they have nothing to do for extended periods of time. Look at Tera, it tried to do a sort of "mix", but ultimately failed because it still allowed you to blow through everything.

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Originally Posted by Elexia

The MMOs that "does away with it" also seem to die off pretty quickly after you hand your players everything and they have nothing to do for extended periods of time.

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http://images.sodahead.com/polls/002..._2_xlarge.jpeg
Hit the nail right on the head.

It's the crux between appealing to people who play for both short and long periods of time...you can't give both sides what they want.

The people who don't feel like investing the time required for more time consuming content will cry for easier to consume content. (Not because they don't have the time either)

The people who are willing to pump the time (Not just because they have alot of playtime)

Please be assured I'm not catagorizing people as casual or hardcore based on playtime, it's mainly a willingness to allow a MMO do what a MMO is supposed to do, last a long time and garner long term rewards. I never had much playtime per day in my later years of XI yet I still relished that content was long lasting and was usually relevant long after it was implemented.

Sky's content was terrible.

And the shrine was just copy pasted hallways over and over.

So no.