You might as well add an official DPS log to the game...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TeresaFortell

And how would you explain if someone has the passport but still can't pass he previouts mechanics? Most of the time, these programs simply do the opposite; they gatekeep players. As such, they do not foster a healthy gameplay environment.

---

I was referring to the poster as an example, the poster said that they had not gotten to P4, only P2 yet joined a P4 requesting party, tools literally exist to try and combat this kind of action.
Is it a stretch to say "People are prog lying let us try make a system that makes it harder to prog lie" ? That's what these are after all.

I don't like them existing because you cannot absolutely perfectly say that a person reached a prog point with skill, for all you know they may have been corpse dragged to that point or be doing no damage and unless something can 100% for sure say that someone deserves what you are giving then it will end up gate keeping people who are competent yet have been let down by the groups they join.

I just don't like that such a community project, where players contribute their own data voluntarily, is being made into a paid service. On top of ads and sharing data with other companies.
I also don't like that it is by design a standard opt-in. Players who want to be seen should be required to opt-in and make their parses public. But the reality is that this would damage their revenue model and edick comparision between players would get more difficult, so there would be less hype and controversy.
I also don't like that after you opt-outed, they sometimes roll-back the setting after they made an "upgrade", requiring you to opt-out again to keep the setting...

SE should offer their own parses for people who agree to get parsed ingame. But they don't have the balls for it I think.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NaoSen

I was referring to the poster as an example, the poster said that they had not gotten to P4, only P2 yet joined a P4 requesting party, tools literally exist to try and combat this kind of action.
Is it a stretch to say "People are prog lying let us try make a system that makes it harder to prog lie" ? That's what these are after all.

I don't like them existing because you cannot absolutely perfectly say that a person reached a prog point with skill, for all you know they may have been corpse dragged to that point or be doing no damage and unless something can 100% for sure say that someone deserves what you are giving then it will end up gate keeping people who are competent yet have been let down by the groups they join.

---

My biggest problem with that tool is that by filtering out prog liars (which I can understand), you are also punishing those who have simply privated their data.
In the past you could simply join and do your thing. Now, you are thrown into the same group as prog liars, simply because you don't want your data to drift around on the internet.
I know that the excuse from some will be that "if you have nothing to hide" or "no one cares about your online character" but my opinion is that the less websites have even such data of mine the better and I absolutely do not trust such a side. Even now and even on this forum you have people looking at tomestone just to counter the opinion of someone regarding game design.
And even if not, you shouldn't be punished for wanting to be more private.

Imo that entire tool was fine in the past when it was used for self improvement and checking balancing but now it get's abused, just like people predicted a parser would be. The end result will be either a raider version of Mare, more and more people leaving PF raiding or the devs chickening out and designing future raids with such tools in mind (ie, fights designed around body checks again, you can't be zombied through).

What the biggest idiots don't understand is that the line will get moved further and further down.
First it will be Savage, then it will be Ex and next things like Deep Dungeons, so casual content. The end result being that the animosity between raiders and the rest of the community will grow even further and people think even the normal raiders are elitists.

Edit:
And for the topic:
An ingame parse would be useless at this point and too late. Just like the strategy board, people would simply continue their year long build own database which would always be more accurate.
The devs would be simply way too late.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shistar

Even in games with non-scripted fights, damage meters exist... at least in the one I played, meter was extremely common and people were even kicked out due to their damage in common dailies.

---

Yes, but progression points are inherently attached to linear scripted fights, and so are prog liars / tomestone.
fflogs and dps meters have been in the game since forever and while I have no love for some of their excesses, they haven't proven to that degree of toxicity as far as I experienced.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Commander_Justitia

I just don't like that such a community project, where players contribute their own data voluntarily, is being made into a paid service. On top of ads and sharing data with other companies.
I also don't like that it is by design a standard opt-in. Players who want to be seen should be required to opt-in and make their parses public. But the reality is that this would damage their revenue model and edick comparision between players would get more difficult, so there would be less hype and controversy.
I also don't like that after you opt-outed, they sometimes roll-back the setting after they made an "upgrade", requiring you to opt-out again to keep the setting...

SE should offer their own parses for people who agree to get parsed ingame. But they don't have the balls for it I think.

---

I completely agree. I feel those websites are inherently predatory in nature and are harming the game not only by getting access to packet sniffed data (which is not TOS compliant), but by also aggregating data without any consent that can be then used by anyone to grief unsuspecting players, as witnessed again and again and again and again...

Quite telling that SE would go all the way to shut down a website/program harming the mogstation, but those two? Oh no, they won't.
And to be frank, even if they did, people would just replicate branches and go underground, as seen with the successors of Mare.

This is why usually the better solution is to take over control of such tools in order to offer official, curated versions.

the raids already have those tools in mind, lots of fights have very obvious damage checks for exampe p8s when it was current in phase 1

It’s hilarious to me that they literally design every role, every job, every encounter with one sole metric in mind (dps output), then offer absolutely no ‘legitimate’ way to actually see that one singular metric the entirety of the game checks. Lol.

And honestly the whole ‘let’s secretly allow these specific third party programs while claiming we don’t, but then we design every job and encounter specifically around the metrics that these third party programs display’ just seems incredibly dumb to me to be frank. Over just releasing their own that they can literally curate or restrict in any shape or form they see fit. But Naa, let’s just keep everyone relying on specific programs that ‘are-allowed-but-totally-aren’t’. What is they call it, an open secret?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NegativeS

Between roles, maybe. Between jobs within a role? Absolutely not. rDPS and some cDPS seem to fall further and further behind with every patch.



PF runners care. Who affect the play of others by denying them access to groups using metrics that are unavailable to them. It's only fair to have an official metric for these things.

I also care. It's unfair to me to have to suffer through instances with people who somehow made it 100 levels without learning how to play this game, or their class. If we had the ability to point out these issues and bid people to correct them, as a Mentor I gladly would. But I can't, because it's against the rules, and we have no official tools to do so.

So I don't.

So they play obliviously while others suffer as a result.

---

Right, so how does an in game parser help with that? Your issue is you want a reason to bully people. Unfortunately this is a story based game, a lot of players are here for the story and aren't actually good at the game. That's just a trade off you have to accept. You're free to create your own premades to avoid them.

Just because there would be an in game parser doesn't mean they would care. It's not their job to care, it's a game and they are going to enjoy it.

Also this patch has extremely good balancing outside of Reaper. I really don't know what you are talking about. The Tanks and Healers are well balanced and DPS are all pretty close too. I certainly hope you are not trying to compare Phys Ranged to Caster or BLM/PCT to SMN/RDM.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NegativeS

It's unfair to me to have to suffer through instances with people who somehow made it 100 levels without learning how to play this game, or their class. If we had the ability to point out these issues and bid people to correct them, as a Mentor I gladly would. But I can't, because it's against the rules, and we have no official tools to do so.

So I don't.

So they play obliviously while others suffer as a result.

---

Being realistic here, if anyone has gotten through 100 levels and cannot play their class fundamentally or the fundamentals of encounter mechanics (e.g., standing in fire all encounter) then I am sorry but in all likelihood those same players probably simply don't care and no amount of you screaming into the void about accountability is going to change that fact.

SE tried solving one of these problems silently already by lowering the skill floor and laziness still persisted. They would still persist even if SE gave you the tools, and gave you the green light to act as ruthless as possible

This raid tier, particularly M10S, has radicalized me into firmly believing that yes, logging should be officially implemented/allowed and even made mandatory for all players in high end content. Tomestone should effectively be added to the game itself, and you should be able to right-click on someone in party finder to see their prog point for a given fight. You should not be allowed to hide this information. Party Finder should have features to automatically filter players from even joining your party based on their prog point similar to item level requirements.

If the devs don't want this sort of "toxic" raiding environment, then they should stop designing fights in a way that encourages it. When every mechanic is a body check and requires perfect execution from all 8 players in order to clear the fight - when seven players can do everything perfectly and still get punished because of one player messing up - gatekeeping becomes a necessity for anyone who values their time and health.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by zarahleo

I joined a practice party the other day for m9s, I had already been to enrage multi times on that character with friends, I had already cleared m9s on an alt too, we dont use logging mods.

The leader of the party kicked us because tomestone said only 50% progress, he admitted this. I said "you do realise not every run is logged right?" He said "weak excuse, everyone logs".

The whole thing is toxic crap.
People who think like this need banned forever, the game would only get better by doing so.

---

Sorry, but the party leader was right to be wary here. They have no way of verifying that you're telling the truth, and have probably had their time wasted by prog liars before. You might just need to start logging.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Underscore

This raid tier, particularly M10S, has radicalized me into firmly believing that yes, logging should be officially implemented/allowed and even made mandatory for all players in high end content. Tomestone should effectively be added to the game itself, and you should be able to right-click on someone in party finder to see their prog point for a given fight. You should not be allowed to hide this information. Party Finder should have features to automatically filter players from even joining your party based on their prog point similar to item level requirements.

If the devs don't want this sort of "toxic" raiding environment, then they should stop designing fights in a way that encourages it. When every mechanic is a body check and requires perfect execution from all 8 players in order to clear the fight - when seven players can do everything perfectly and still get punished because of one player messing up - gatekeeping becomes a necessity for anyone who values their time and health.



Sorry, but the party leader was right to be wary here. They have no way of verifying that you're telling the truth, and have probably had their time wasted by prog liars before. You might just need to start logging.

---

best take i have seen so far tbh