The identity of Pictomancer is being destroyed

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Originally Posted by Carighan

Why VPR? Samurai has cast bars, I get that, but Viper is a fully mobile job with extremely little going on so like Summoner it allows you to pay full attention to the fight - a very easy job to play.

Shouldn't Viper deal lower damage, owing to how "safe" it is?

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Unless they REALLY go hard with melee downtime, VPR should be aligned aDPS and rDPS wise with the other selfish DPS. I think trying too hard to balance for "ease" leads to a bunch of balance issue, like MCH being the worst DPS 3 expansions in a row and the whole argument around who deserves the most damage due to ease of use, which becomes highly subjective

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Originally Posted by angienessyo

Well, realistically PCT should be doing similar damage to the melee that have buffs. Which would still put it in a good spot below BLM/SAM/VPR but alongside the other melee and above the other casters.

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Yeah, with PCT's current damage profile, trying to align it's aDPS with RPR's and lower its raid buff to 2-3% like Arcane Circle would probably be the best spot for it. Trying to bring down PCT's aDPS down to full buffers like MNK, NIN and DRG when its damage profile is so bursty feels way harder.

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Originally Posted by Carighan

Why VPR? Samurai has cast bars, I get that, but Viper is a fully mobile job with extremely little going on so like Summoner it allows you to pay full attention to the fight - a very easy job to play.

Shouldn't Viper deal lower damage, owing to how "safe" it is?

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Kinda off topic but,
I kinda think this as well, and I think I said something like this in my past comments. Im not sure why ppl think VPR should be doing high dps. Sure its a selfless job with no buffs BUT just like smn its pretty easy melee that is a "safe" pick. Ppl on here always talk about how smn should be the weakest caster bc of how easy it is and everything but VRP is just has easy and almost plays itself. The job has been decided as the "follow the dotted line" job... If you believe VPR should do high dps because its has no utility, fine but don't turn around and say that the main reason smn should be below rdm and closer to phy range just bc its easy since VPR is just as easy and is just as moblie.

Ah the good old debate on effort vs damage output reward. If classes have to be balanced around their difficulty (which SE actually claims to do btw, just unevenly), and then people constantly ask for easy jobs and complex jobs so that everyone can find their pick, what do we do?

Boy imagine making this thread but being that one person to think.

" There no way SE would ever touch my class....."

Funny part is your arrogant enough to think your job wasn't going to be touch. Mch, drk, let's see astro, ooof sum and many more were effected.

Yet guys we have to remember papa SE says 8.0 will bring back job identity.... mofo your taking it away how the hell u gonna give identity when your the one stripping it to bare core in order to streamline said job.

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Originally Posted by angienessyo

Well, realistically PCT should be doing similar damage to the melee that have buffs. Which would still put it in a good spot below BLM/SAM/VPR but alongside the other melee and above the other casters.

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We base every balance decision around rDPS why do people still think the selfish jobs need to be on top. Like that’s literally what rDPS is designed to equalise

Like does anyone have a valid reason why jobs like DRG or NIN should do less rDPS than a selfish DPS

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

We base every balance decision around rDPS why do people still think the selfish jobs need to be on top. Like that’s literally what rDPS is designed to equalise

Like does anyone have a valid reason why jobs like DRG or NIN should do less rDPS than a selfish DPS

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Maybe I'm wrong but I struggle to even see the point of raid buffs anymore anyway. The only ones I see working is DNC partner, Bard songs and ast buff cards, as those cooldowns differ from the fomular. If every job was selfish it could lead to more unique job design as jobs like old Paladin could exist. I just find myself looking at the raid buff system we have and wondering why even bother because it doesn't add anything of value to the actual game but just limits job design

Though every DPS job should be judged at total raid contribution as it stands, theirs no reason for a raid buff job to be higher or lower then a samurai in total RDPS I think people look at RDPS sometimes and don't realise that takes into account damage gained from raid buffs

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

Maybe I'm wrong but I struggle to even see the point of raid buffs anymore anyway. The only ones I see working is DNC partner, Bard songs and ast buff cards, as those cooldowns differ from the fomular. If every job was selfish it could lead to more unique job design as jobs like old Paladin could exist. I just find myself looking at the raid buff system we have and wondering why even bother because it doesn't add anything of value to the actual game but just limits job design

Though every DPS job should be judged at total raid contribution as it stands, theirs no reason for a raid buff job to be higher or lower then a samurai in total RDPS I think people look at RDPS sometimes and don't realise that takes into account damage gained from raid buffs

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I kind of agree with this. Raid buffs were interesting before the 2min meta because they had different timing and had to find moment to line them up. With everything being on a 2min timer, as long as everyone is pressing their button on CD, they'll naturally always line up. And as you said, this 2min meta screwed over jobs like PLD and BLM because their flatter damage profile couldn't shine when reopeners went from happening every 6min to every 2min.

(I still think the 2min meta is the root of much of the issues we're encountering now. With no potency changes, you'd go from bursting 10 times in FRU to 7 times, and reopeners would only happen 4 times.)

All I can say is "Omph" now that 7.2 picto live - it feels terrible overall, doubly so if trying to use any motif in battle (the major theme of the job). I'm going to wait and see what The Balance says overall, but from play experience through more than a few runs of the Jueno raid this week, I went from a solid damage dealer to a fraction of what I was before because trying to use anything beyond my RBG rotation followed by the occasional CYM burst or the occasional landscape/holy/comet feels terrible (rough number crunching in my head, I'm guessing my damage is only 70% of what it was pre-7.2). Beyond ripping away the uniqueness of the class, I now feel if I'm holding back the entire raid and/or dungeon if I want to go in as picto. If SE wanted to kill the bursts, they did it in such a hard way that it erased the entire identity of the class and made half of the picto-toolkit useless or detriment to the other players we want to game with. Combine this with the major buffs that melee dps and blm did get this patch, they massively over-corrected picto for extreme end-game and severely impacted the fun for the other 99% of us who play more casually with our friends. Overall, 7.2 makes it feel bad to play picto with others because you know that you're holding back the group if you want to use your core identity and play with motifs.

If my previous main, mch, hadn't been so abused throughout this entire expansion, I would go back to that (between the disjointed AOE abilities, off-global ability bloat, and lack of party support tools while other ranged dps do similar-or-more damage with party utility, it has been rough), but at this point I'm considering spending the next few months casually leveling up and having to learn another job just to get through MSQ with how the 7.2 patch has mangled picto (and I don't want to be deadweight to other players who don't deserve the grief of trying to drag me along).

I'm hoping for a hot-patch soon about this, but my MSQ at this point is done until I level something else up instead (which is massively disappointing because I fell in love with the picto on reveal and haven't looked back until now).

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Originally Posted by AndoenSaido

All I can say is "Omph" now that 7.2 picto live - it feels terrible overall, doubly so if trying to use any motif in battle (the major theme of the job). I'm going to wait and see what The Balance says overall, but from play experience through more than a few runs of the Jueno raid this week, I went from a solid damage dealer to a fraction of what I was before because trying to use anything beyond my RBG rotation followed by the occasional CYM burst or the occasional landscape/holy/comet feels terrible (rough number crunching in my head, I'm guessing my damage is only 70% of what it was pre-7.2). Beyond ripping away the uniqueness of the class, I now feel if I'm holding back the entire raid and/or dungeon if I want to go in as picto. If SE wanted to kill the bursts, they did it in such a hard way that it erased the entire identity of the class and made half of the picto-toolkit useless or detriment to the other players we want to game with. Combine this with the major buffs that melee dps and blm did get this patch, they massively over-corrected picto for extreme end-game and severely impacted the fun for the other 99% of us who play more casually with our friends. Overall, 7.2 makes it feel bad to play picto with others because you know that you're holding back the group if you want to use your core identity and play with motifs.

If my previous main, mch, hadn't been so abused throughout this entire expansion, I would go back to that (between the disjointed AOE abilities, off-global ability bloat, and lack of party support tools while other ranged dps do similar-or-more damage with party utility, it has been rough), but at this point I'm considering spending the next few months casually leveling up and having to learn another job just to get through MSQ with how the 7.2 patch has mangled picto (and I don't want to be deadweight to other players who don't deserve the grief of trying to drag me along).

I'm hoping for a hot-patch soon about this, but my MSQ at this point is done until I level something else up instead (which is massively disappointing because I fell in love with the picto on reveal and haven't looked back until now).

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You can at least be safe in the knowledge that you aren’t doing bad damage. new PCT played optimally does only about 2-3% less damage than old PCT and new PCT played like old PCT (ie going stuff it I want to hammer in the burst) is only about a further 2% loss from that

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

Maybe I'm wrong but I struggle to even see the point of raid buffs anymore anyway. The only ones I see working is DNC partner, Bard songs and ast buff cards, as those cooldowns differ from the fomular. If every job was selfish it could lead to more unique job design as jobs like old Paladin could exist. I just find myself looking at the raid buff system we have and wondering why even bother because it doesn't add anything of value to the actual game but just limits job design

Though every DPS job should be judged at total raid contribution as it stands, theirs no reason for a raid buff job to be higher or lower then a samurai in total RDPS I think people look at RDPS sometimes and don't realise that takes into account damage gained from raid buffs

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Yeah I've been thinking about that a lot too. There's not much effort involved when it just lines up by pressing the big 2min skill on cooldown. You at least had to account for what timings to look out/build up resources for based on your party comp when they were on different cooldowns. AST doesn't get to throw dps buff cards outside the 2min buff anymore so they don't even need to watch for jobs with 1min bursts either.

Only time it gets interesting's if roulettes decide to match you with the same job and you have to adjust to avoid overwriting eachother