So how would you buff bard? (Just like to hear peoples thoughts)

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Originally Posted by Valence

I don't want to lose the punishment for dying on the job (or on any job). If anything BRD is super easy to stay aligned with, since you just have to wait for the next song to come off CD and carry on with your life. Gauge is flexible and you can also realign Apex as you go over time. Punishment allows for skill expression.
The actual problem is that it removes you from having fun with repertoire gameplay for too long, which was less of a problem before because songs were only 30s long, which meant even dying at the start of one, the time for you to be raised, would mean you'd be songless for at best 10-15s, which was fine. Now though, it can go up to 25-30s, which is less fine.

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That’s fair. I’m not saying one or the other is the ‘right’ way, whether it’s wanting to retain skill expression or wanting to look into where the floor is/can be. I think it’d be nice if the skill floor was ‘accessible for anyone’, but I wouldn’t want to sacrifice a satisfying ‘ceiling’ for that either.

And I guess there is a case of like, it sucks at the time, but then next time you do [the content] you know to be wary of song timing in case of jumps or whatever lol.

So it’s not like there’s no room to players to improve, and being able to ‘fail’ is what drives people to improve in the first place. Plus, it’s not like we’d have much else going on if song timing requirements were removed really lol. Ultimately it wouldn’t really ‘move the needle’ on how Bard measures up to other jobs either I think.

As an aside I feel the ‘DoT decisions’ they’ve made are more ‘devs making decisions for us’ than anything from what Bards have said lol. I guess because of the debuff limit or something. I still think it’s chillingly plausible that we could end up seeing a DoT-less Bard in 8.0. Though, maybe reinstating some of the ‘DoT interactions’ could give Bard a decent boost in output, like Shadowbite potency increases or whatever else.

I actually don't think BRD will lose its dot in 8.0 or any kind of rework as I think timer tracking is a core part of BRD's gameplay. At most I think its dots will, and should be consolidated to just Caustic Bite with some kind of proc interaction with Sidewinder (pair up the poison, and snake themed attacks). Stormbite should be changed so it isn't a DOT, and Iron Jaws should be replaced with something else as well (AOE Caustic Bite perhaps).

Sorry in advance for nitpicks.

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Originally Posted by mallleable

I think timer tracking is a core part of BRD's gameplay.

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It was, definitely. As it's been reduced from 28% of uptime to 5.5% of uptime and had all of its interacting systems removed, though... I struggle to say it is now. I wouldn't be surprised if they looked at the songs and said "Well, these are 45s, too, so why the redundancy?" and gave Bard DoTs the mercy blow.

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At most I think its dots will, and should, be consolidated to just Caustic Bite with some kind of proc interaction with Sidewinder (pair up the poison, and snake themed attacks).

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That wouldn't be bad. Maybe Sidewinder duplicates a strike on every enemy afflicted with Caustic Bite (including the main target) and generates Repertoire for each enemy hit, or what-have-you. Whatever gives a bit more flair and a tiny bit more cognitive load without feeling merely like extra obligatory chore. That said...

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Iron Jaws should be replaced with something else as well (AOE Caustic Bite perhaps)

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I've never understood the idea of a spammable AoE DoT that replaces the ST version. If it has a relevant resource cost the likes of Bane vs. Fester then there's some interaction, thankfully -- though even then it'd really just become obligatory for trash and unused outside of it (a la Senei/Guren or Xeno/Foul) -- but if it's spammable, then you're just using up a button on an infrequent action just because the total base potency of the ST variant is superior until X targets and inferior thereafter (see Shadow of Death/Whorl of Death).

Hot Take Spitball:

Put the "Bite"/"Jaw" actions (each now with additional utility but shorter DoT durations) --and at least one other/new GCD-- on a shared "Hunter's Quiver" charge system, recharging over maybe every... 15 seconds or so... and by certain other chance-based means (including nodes appearing under slain enemies you previously afflicted or on terrain between you and the boss after certain health thresholds). For instance...

• Caustic Bite might additionally increase all potencies taken by the target by some small amount, synergetic with multi-hit and frequent attacks;
• Stormbite might increase allied movement speed for 2 seconds whenever they pass near its victim or the arrow's path taken from its caster to its target and allow certain oGCDs to ricochet to nearby enemies for partial damage;
• Iron Jaws might consume both instantly for proportionate burst effect (mostly utility-focused outside of milking the end of a damage window), with partial effect to DoTs in mirrored arcs towards the target for a big ole' boom;
• Ladonbite would now be a short-DoT option for burst AoE, akin to a denser and more frequently available Bioblaster, rather than outright replacing Quick Nock -OR- renamed slightly; and
• Shadowbite would, idk, be renamed to Shadowfall, just so the "Bite" skills are consistently charge-spending specialty ammo.

Yeah I really don't feel removing DoTs (and timers to track) is a meaningful improvement. Rather if anything the issues with the current design of the archer-part hint towards this having become too little of the gameplay.

Maybe reworking the combat system to be all about tracking timers for skills that little if any inherent CD but no use being prematuraly re-applied is the way to go? As in, have 2-4 DoTs/Debuffs and 2-3 selfbuffs and it's about not needlessly refreshing these but also not letting them drop or conflict?

If then the issue becomes that this "randomness" that is Dancer's procs and Simon Says and Bard's procs (as much as you can still call them random, tbh) is meant to be a key aspect of PRanged gameplay, then make these effects have semi-random durations, tbh. That'd be an interesting thing anyways: On application, you can see the duration you rolled, so in theory you always know 20-30s in advance what needs to be done. Yet you can also naturally never have the boring super-staticy rotation that plagues most jobs in this game, since well, durations and hence alignment or misalignment of durations is utterly random.

Funny how dots start sounding hollow when they lose their repertoire tick generation, their Sidewinder interaction, and get reduced to Raging Strikes snapshot during bursts...

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Originally Posted by Valence

Funny how dots start sounding hollow when they lose their repertoire tick generation, their Sidewinder interaction, and get reduced to Raging Strikes snapshot during bursts...

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It's also that the playerbase but in particular the devs because the C-suites can't be bothered to hire enough backend devs are chronically averse to DoT-based damage output as a baseline mechanic. As if "DoT DPS" isn't a staple of RPG fare.

If bard job identity is working around DoTs how to make it more fun than what we have now?

My opinion that if bard have: Personal DPS, buffs, DoTs, rotation, ticks
either it will be best job ever or it will be not the best at anything.

Making Bard specialized in areas that can fit in phy range identity will have to reduce the amount of things that bard can do and focus on few things so it can be their identity and no job in the game can do it in "Bard" way

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Originally Posted by Carighan

It's also that the playerbase but in particular the devs because the C-suites can't be bothered to hire enough backend devs are chronically averse to DoT-based damage output as a baseline mechanic. As if "DoT DPS" isn't a staple of RPG fare.

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Maybe, but this worked perfectly fine before. They just decided to axe it.

Between the buff/debuff maximum and folks complaing about dots and sustained buffs being cut off by downtime, they've had plenty of excuses to remove them at least. Almost feels like an oversight there's any timer management left at this point.

What made DoT procs fun wasn't necessarily that they were DoTs, but they allowed procs to scale in AOE, and there are ways for procs to scale in AOE without DoTs. The could do something like 50% chance from song ticks, and 50% from weaponskills delivered that way when you use Laidonsbite in a pack of enemies, you are getting a proc chance per enemy hit plus from your song.

Also you just know if they ever decide to add Chemist as either a healer or a DPS, or even a SCH rework, it will likely be final nail in the coffin for BRD being a DoT job.