Questionable ethics - Living Memory

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by celfhelp

she did try to peacefully resolve the issue, albeit briefly, and double albeit not in the most effective way

she asked wuk lamat (and by extension, us) to become alexandrian citizens, which would have resolved the issue without mass destruction, because a continent worth of natural death supplies far more 'empty souls' than just the kingdom of alexandria. obviously this isn't a rational or good solution, but it was a passive one

i also disagree that we just "chose to defend ourselves" by erasing an entire kingdom of people.

imo we overcorrected, because nothing was stopping us from going straight to sphene at the meso terminal and confronting her. we didn't have to turn everything off before hand, and the reason we DID do that ended up being completely irrelevant and useless. we 'killed' her people in an effort to demoralize her and it didn't. she wasn't even aware of it (frankly this is probably more 'oopsie' from the writers than it is something to dig into)

we could've just as easily "killed" sphene, taken the key, and left alexandria to naturally fade away, but instead we played God and sped up the process

do i personally think there's much of a difference? yes and no, but i'm just posturing on this side for the sake of discussion

---

She was only asking us. Not our peoples, nations,etc. Us as individuals, so she wouldn't have to fight us. That's all. She was still going to attack tulliyolal.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LuciferMournstar

Hunters in the bubble can no longer use souls, they will die trying to stop the monsters in that Lighting destroyed world.

---

...but that bubble is literally part of our world now. And the time has been synced at this point, too. We can literally get in and out of the bubble (and so can the citizens of S9/HF).

There is no reason why we cannot trade with them, help them, equip them with other tools or why they can't leave the bubble temporarily and hunt normal game.

Also, the idea that human hunters are the only means by which they can hunt is flawed imo. They literally have robots and space ships and now that Zoraal Ja is gone they have no further purpose. Why would an advanced civilisation with a huge cyber military force that exceeds anything Tural has to offer (we need a goddamn dragon to take them down) not be able to employ these things as tools to hunt or keep normal monsters at bay within the bubble?
Hop on one of those flying bikes and hunt beasts from above. Hell, put a robot on those flying bikes and let them do the hunting for you.

They can exist just fine without extra souls just like everybody else on Eitherys. They do not need extra souls to live and breathe, it's an insurance against very specific causes of death (not even natural causes) that no other culture has and yet every other culture on this planet is doing fine.
And they can easily circumvent these cases of unnatural death with other technical solutions. They can just not face tank a beast's tank buster anymore as a pugilist and get away unscathed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

She was only asking us. Not our peoples, nations,etc. Us as individuals, so she wouldn't have to fight us. That's all. She was still going to attack tulliyolal.

---

that's a fair, and probably more accurate, interpretation, at the time it just didn't register as that because no one seemed to react with that in mind. haha

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Caitlinzulu

I would rather not have huge moral issues in my relaxation game. Its just a game, there is no way any of us would do things rl that we choose or do ingame.

---

Only slightly on-topic, but you picked a terrible game for this, sorry.
XIV's story has always touched on dark and morally gray topics.
Even the WoL has been forced to side with "lesser evils" at times (like letting Lolorito get away with a bunch of terrible stuff for the benefit of the Ala Mhigans, or cooperating with Gaius who has a history of conquest, etc etc).
DT being this happy-go-lucky place where all strife is resolved with 10 minutes of talk-no-jutsu and even the cruelest people can magically become good-doers is an exception, not the rule, as far as XIV goes.

The game goes out of its way to inform you that the endless don't have souls. They are approximations of the memories of people who once used to be alive. It's no more a moral quandary than deleting a photo off your hard drive. A photo that wants to start a war and kill everyone to maintain itself, no less.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bright-Flower

snip.

---

If their guns and ships worked like you say, why did they use Hunters with Beast Souls and regulators to begin with? Why waste the precious souls needed to keep Living Memory going on Hunters, if they didn't need to? Electrope may work for a while outside in Tuliloyol, but it was specifically said it converts LIGHTNING energy and needs quite a bit. Plus, what would be the point of the continued use of Electrope, when it's no longer needed because the source isn't assailed by massive amounts of lightning energy? What purpose would regulators serve without souls? Absolutely none.

I admire your continued nativity, I'll give you that. You really do try to look on the bright side (no pun intended), but life and the world can be cruel.

I fail to see the moral issue some people seem to have with this zone. Sphene also at this point essentially declared war on every other shard, viewing living souls as commodities for her artificial constructs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LuciferMournstar

Yeah, Alexandria still exist in Heritage Found and Solution 9, but they are doomed for good now. We are going to wipe them out too. Their regulators no longer will have souls supplied to them, so everything in the "bubble" is doomed. Hunters in the bubble can no longer use souls, they will die trying to stop the monsters in that Lighting destroyed world. Which means eventually all of Heritage Found, Solution 9, and Living Memory will be overrun and uninhabitable. Also, we're going to put a stop to the use of Beast Souls. We're wiping out their entire culture, way of life, and any hope of continuing. They have one recourse : Abandon their culture, their home, and move to the source. Eletrope won't have use in the source without the abundance of Lightning Eather, so that'll be forgotten too.

There is no "happy ending" to this story. Alexandria is dying, and in about 100 years or so, will fade into obscurity and distant memory. If it takes even that long.

---

That's not really so. Life is difficult in Alexandria, but just because it's difficult doesn't mean it's doomed. They don't have a choice about 'moving to the Source'--they're already 'here'. Yeah, they'll eventually have to learn to live without backup souls to rely on, since Zoraal Ja ate so many of them. That's not exactly a civilization-ending catastrophe. But since they are on the Source already, and the bubble has been breached, that means Alexandria can establish trade with the rest of the Source, can learn new ways to deal with their issues. I'd not be at all surprised to learn that Alexandrians going forward are born with Source-dense souls, since they are now of the Source. They don't have to move anywhere if they don't want to. Electrope is still going to be useful since the bubble (that exists on the Source) still has insane amounts of lightning aether in it, and electrope now exists on the Source, in Yysalani. They'll have to adapt, but now they have a way out of their original destructive cycle. Remember--before Alexandria got fused with the Source, every Alexandrian that died was made an Endless, and the Endless consume souls. So there would always be an increasing number of Endless and a dwindling supply of souls. That is no longer the case. Alexandria *was* doomed. Now it's not.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Loggos

...but that bubble is literally part of our world now. And the time has been synced at this point, too. We can literally get in and out of the bubble (and so can the citizens of S9/HF).

There is no reason why we cannot trade with them, help them, equip them with other tools or why they can't leave the bubble temporarily and hunt normal game.

Also, the idea that human hunters are the only means by which they can hunt is flawed imo. They literally have robots and space ships and now that Zoraal Ja is gone they have no further purpose. Why would an advanced civilisation with a huge cyber military force that exceeds anything Tural has to offer (we need a goddamn dragon to take them down) not be able to employ these things as tools to hunt or keep normal monsters at bay within the bubble?
Hop on one of those flying bikes and hunt beasts from above. Hell, put a robot on those flying bikes and let them do the hunting for you.

They can exist just fine without extra souls just like everybody else on Eitherys. They do not need extra souls to live and breathe, it's an insurance against very specific causes of death (not even natural causes) that no other culture has and yet every other culture on this planet is doing fine.
And they can easily circumvent these cases of unnatural death with other technical solutions. They can just not face tank a beast's tank buster anymore as a pugilist and get away unscathed.

---

"They have no further purpose". Did you think Zoraal Ja was just having them standing around, doing nothing for 30 years till he could merge with the Source? Obviously not. They were were used, and they weren't enough, hence the Hunters.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

She was only asking us. Not our peoples, nations,etc. Us as individuals, so she wouldn't have to fight us. That's all. She was still going to attack tulliyolal.

---

I agree and in addition, I also don't think it would actually help Living Memory if Tuliyollal became Alexandrian because the souls of the Alexandrian people already seem to be (more or less) fully in use for their regulator system. They don't seem to have (enough) of them to spare to power Living Memory sustainably. So just increasing the Alexandrian people would probably not actually increase its surplus energy (at least not long term) because, assuming that many would probably also end up using regulators like most of the Turali's who got absorbed into the electro bubble - even if it's just newer generations/generations yet to be born, the life force demand for their normal regulator system would eventually increase more or less proportionally as well.

So in the long run Spehne needs to kill people to generate this surplus of life force. Her own society cannot generate it so she cannot offer all of Tuliyollal/Tural to become Alexandrians because it would actively undermine her goal.

(Also, I don't think it's very "peaceful" to say "give up your whole nation and way of life and succumb to us, otherwise we'll have to harvest you". That is just colonialisation/conquest, no matter how regretful Sphene is or how nicely she asks.)