Lets stick with Shadowbringer here, because we actually had 3 Characters that took the Spotlight here: G'raha Tia, Emet-Selch and Ardbert. So lets compare that to Wuk Lamat in Dawntrail.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleretic
First of, even put together, those three didnt take over as much screentime as Wuk Lamat on her own. They allowed us some time to actually miss them. And since they all had less screentime, every time they showed up, they actually had some form of Character developement.
Wuk Lamat on the other hand literally has 2 Character arcs that she goes through multiple times. And I think the biggest problem is that they gave her too few traits to fill the time they had to fill with her. How often do we need her telling us that she loves peace and her people in the exact same way she just told us an hour ago?
Then the next big difference is, that with the Shadowbringers Characters, NPCs didnt keep telling us how awesome and great they are. G'raha Tia got that a bit from the people at the Crystarium, but after the game established how the people love him, it was only brought up a few times. Same with the hate against Ardbert and the Warriors. It was established once, and then the story trusted us enough to remember it. Ardbert didnt go "It hurts to be hated that much. Ever after I caused the Flood of light, people hate me so much. Ask 3 people about how much they hate me!". And Emmet was a pure enigma the whole time.
But in Dawntrail, you cant get to any zone without the Story NPCs telling you how WUk Lamat is the bestest girl to ever bestgirl. Even Estinien didnt get his d*ck sucked that much in Heavenward.
And then the final Trial, where we didnt even get the final hit on the enemy. Nope, that was Wuk Lamats honor, and the way she dropped in, you just saw how the writers expected us to cheer her arrival...
The sad part is: on paper I like Wuk Lamat. But what they had for her was spread too thin over the screentime they had to fill.
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07-31-2024, 11:58 PMRaoul9753
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08-01-2024, 12:06 AMSupersnow845While I don’t disagree with your points I will point out that besides Wuk there was also koana in the first half and sphene in the second half that I don’t think totally got overshadowed by Wuk (it was more the actual NPC dialogue in the quests that made her feel omnipresent). I can point to moments of importance for the both of them and an arc they went through that wasn’t totally dictated by how it fit around wuk. She just kinda replaced the scionsQuote:
Originally Posted by Raoul9753
Also it’s worth noting they did mention how much the WOD’s are hated one too many times in the role quests but they aren’t exactly MSQ so I guess that can be excused -
08-01-2024, 12:08 AMfulminatingUrianger and exarch fill the player character up with sin eater juice while the story repeatedly tells you this is how you make a new lightwarden. Emet selch is introduced as an ascian to the point he shows the mask when first introducing himself to the scions after they return from il mheg (final level 73 cutscene for those counting). It is not an absurd reach to think that perhaps the apocalypse in the first and the man from apocalypses "r" us could be connected. The story was about saving the 7uc timeline by averting the apocalypse in the first, there is no indicated way to achieve this without disposing of an apocalypse worth of light somewhere, whether it be through dumping into the void or filling a dark soul with light.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleretic
In terms of stifling, he appears from behind at about level 72 and as a chatty man slightly before 74. Following this, he has a presence in rak'tika, primarily in the viera half zone surprise surprise, can't be bothered showing in person for the dessert after his lecture on dimensions, gets a flashback cutscene where surprisingly absolutely noone he's seeding an apocalypse, a quick chat on the lift and then he's gone until he casts gun (level 79). After this the game stops pretending he isn't the villain so you go to his house to bully him. Compare this to wuk lamat, who is absent for a diplomatic brawl with gajaja, a kidnap sequnce of 2.5 quests and the zone of shaolaani where you happen to run into her 57 year old nursemaid who happened to have the bangle she gave her stolen. Oh also 3/4 of the final boss fight. This is 3/4 less than hades, but since you aren't actually beating her up I don't think that counts as much defence.
He didn't take credit for the ironworks tower, expessing interest/surprise that the sundered were able to achive time/dimension travel, he didn't stab himself in the chest with the axe of light but you can read it as suicide by wol so yeah you can have that if you like.
I'll freely complain about meals made of food I like, particularly if it's badly cooked which is a metaphor for endwalker in case you're wondering. -
08-01-2024, 12:09 AMRaoul9753ok, i give you that. The Role Quests were 100% about each member of the Warriors of Light, And mentioned them and what they did alot. If you did all the role quests right after another, you have a compareable amount to Dawntrails Wuk Lamat Worship.Quote:
Originally Posted by Supersnow845
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08-01-2024, 02:35 AMTehmonThe difference is, other expansions have given WoL a personal investment into the story, even as the spotlight is more or less on the cast surrounding WoL.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleretic
In Heavensward
1) we are personally connected to Midgardsormr, and are thus partially involved in the war between Ishgard and dragons already.
2) our Mothercrystal blessing is blocked by Midgardsormr, and we gradually get it back by proving to Midgardsormr that we are worthy of being Hydaelyn's chosen
3) we are wanted men in Ul'dah where we are accused of poisoning the Sultana and the Scions of the Seventh Dawn are all in shambles, and thus we need shelter in Ishgard.
4) Haurchefant's sacrifice is a huge turning point, the first time arguably in the entire MSQ where things get truly personal for WoL, and we seek revenge
5) Ascians are meddling somewhere in the background giving us even more of an incentive to deal with Ishgard's current crisis, as they have become our arch nemesis at this point
Furthermore, throughout our journey through Heavensward, we become close (or closer) to several characters, both old and new, like Alphinaud, Tataru, Aymeric, Haurchefant, Estinien and Count Edmont.
In Dawntrail, we have very little personal investment or plot threads, nothing to get our WoL feel like they are an important piece in the story even when they aren't the focus. Our reasons to be in Tural boils down to
1) Emet told us to go.
2) Adventure
3) One of the claimants wants to full scale war. (Which at level 91 MSQ is basically removed from the equation because Gulool Ja Ja has no intention of giving up his throne to his absolute loser children unless they really step up to the plate).
Now, eventually Dawntrail does get a big threat that WoL naturally has to deal with but that just boils down to '' bad guys go brrr '' and that's not engaging in the least.
And overall, for how many new people and cultures we meet, we truly do not get to personally know or establish a relationship with ANYONE except Wuk Lamat, and MAAAAAYBE Erenville. Everyone else is completely irrelevant to us and we don't get to personally connect with. Every character is just a character in Wuk Lamat's story, while we don't get to do anything but watch from the sidelines and be massive Wuk Lamat simps. Meeting new people and connecting with them has always been one of WoL's big character traits, at least in my personal opinion, so it feels extra awkward when we really do not do much of that in Dawntrail. Heavensward, Shadowbringers and Endwalker are imo acclaimed partially because they but emphasis on our relationship with some of the important cast of the expansion, or we deepen our past relationships to new levels with older characters. But in Dawntrail, it's just Wuk Lamat all the time. -
08-01-2024, 03:12 AMTurnintinoFirst of all, I don't disagree with this first point, as a fellow Emet-disliker. I found his presence, in general, suffocating (and consequently, I carried that resentment into Endwalker). BUT there were still many scenes/moments throughout 5.0 that neither featured nor referenced him; I remember because they were the only moments I enjoyed (and it wasn't that long ago that I played it) lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleretic
In contrast, though -- and I say this as someone who also likes Wuk Lamat just fine -- she's much closer to omnipresent, both physically and narratively. And that's not a surprise to me, the story being what it is (a premise some players were never going to enjoy anyway). Of course she'll be there, she's the one you're helping, the main reason you're in Tural. Of course she's the center of conversation (up to a point), for the same reasons. But I also agree with other comments here that suggest there were opportunities, even during the race for the throne, to center other characters even momentarily -- the way ShB often did for the Scions. For the folks who don't vibe with Wuk Lamat, that might've been enough to keep them more or less content, so that by the time she actually isn't the center of attention when the Alexandria stuff rolls in, every additional appearance doesn't feel like salt in the wound (I disagree with those who say she shouldn't have been present for that stuff; I think she did, in order to complete her arc). But, you know, here we are.
Combined with the arguably clumsy pacing of 7.0 (I didn't binge the MSQ in one go, so I didn't feel the pre-95 drag as much as a few others I've heard from), I don't think it's unreasonable to say the writing fumbled the Wuk Lamat ball a little bit. It was at least a little short-sighted.
All that said, though, I think it's kind of pointless to argue with her naysayers, in the same way I wouldn't welcome someone debating with me about Emet's virtues or narrative purpose, because this issue is ultimately feelings-based, as you said. And I don't think that's invalid. Ultimately, this is fiction, and the biggest sin a fictional character can commit is being annoying to a viewer/reader/player lol. -
08-01-2024, 08:11 AMHahnDomica
For me the problem with the story is that the overall story structure is a mess, like they changed their minds from a light-hearted vacation catering to new players, to something completely different, with no time to properly tie everything up before launch. You can see the inconsistencies in everything related to the msq, from writing to voice acting and even animation. It really feels like they tried to salvage a bad idea and almost could not do it in time. It's not a bad game and the msq have some really great ideas, but is for sure a huge disapointment and a missed opportunity. Just a little more time, care and polish and this msq could have reached the level of the previous expansions.
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08-01-2024, 07:34 PMDeadlyAlbatross
For me the worst of it was the repetition of ShB structure without all the parts that made ShB work (even if they were retconned in EW), and it completely ignoring the extraordinarily heavy fallout that should've been felt on Tural from the Final Days.
Ascians are gone now and we don't get to examine their plans for Tural, I kinda get that. And I get that maybe travelling from Cortezera Europe to the Incan empire would get exactly as jarring because the political structure and level of technology would be vastly different, not to mention religious indoctrinations.
But probably not to the point where an honestly global cataclysm would only specifically target our 'main' continent and somehow leave Tural out of it.
Maybe that content is in the side-quests, but it feels like it should've been at the very least discussed thoroughly, because if any people should've felt the final days, it's the lizardmen who cultivated the 'blessed siblings'.
As for the 'They have to taste war to be worthy of peace' mentality, it is not really examined in any meaningful way -- to the point where people I encounter daily IRL, people I actually work with, espouse thinking along those same lines regarding 'mandatory' military service - and somehow we don't get to hear or form an opinion on that.
Okay, maybe Wuk Lamat was passively born with a mutation that allowed her to naturally counter the Song of Despair that brought Dragonstar down of all things. Maybe that dynamis aura is big enough to cover a continent.
If that's the case, I think the expansion's story is saved.
I also think that the whole Alexandria thing should've been left to another expansion altogether. The whole 'succession race' evolving into a proper 'succession war' and 'mentoring the kitty' instead of 'empowring the kitty' would have made for a much, much better story. -
08-01-2024, 07:47 PMSupersnow845The justification for the final days not touching tural is the same justification for why the only part of the 3 great continents that is affected by the final days is thavnir->then corvos->then garlemaldQuote:
Originally Posted by DeadlyAlbatross
Once zodiark’s aether shield is gone Meteions song of oblivion begins eating away at the highest levels of aether in the atmosphere; the celestial currents. The areas where the celestial currents are weakest get hit by the final days first- this is consistent across both the original final days and the EW final days
Tural was not under a weak celestial current so was protected from the final days until the WOL stopped Meteion
There may be other areas with weak enough currents they experienced the final days before the WOL stopped Meteion (such as merycydia or if there is any land south of merycydia, east of hingashi or west of tural) but as of now we don’t know about it -
08-01-2024, 07:49 PMCarin-EriSame.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raoul9753
It's a pity really - but its a sad fact that one poorly written 'scene' in a story, particularly when it's part of the ending, can tarnish what came before. It was pretty hypocritical for the dialogue to identify us as "the single greatest threat" only to contradict that by having Wuk Lamat appear and present us with a unnecessary 'here I come to save the day!' moment. It added nothing to the story and, for me, completely took the wind out of the sails of that fight, which had felt epic until then.
I honestly can't fathom why the writer thought this would enhance the outcome, particularly not after having the narrative let us think that it was 'our' moment to shine.