Feature Request/Suggestion - English (JP) Language option in Launcher

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Originally Posted by MeeDeggiThePunisher

I've always hated dubtitles but accepted them in video games. Doing two text tracks for the English dub and JP sub is a big ask.

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I have too, that's why I always go towards fansubs since those are usually more accurate and are just better than dubtitles.
As for doing two text tracts being a big ask? I argue that it's really not. most of the work is already done, it's mostly just testing. It's certainly not a trivial thing to implement, but it's also not too significant.

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Originally Posted by Kuroka

Playing on German, i shiver on the though of having to play English, the localization is just too hard, the liberties too far... (And we dont even start about a certain VA lol).

IDK why so many english translations are so obsessed with changing things, censor or adept em for more sensitive ppl...

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It's because they want it to be *for* them. Like I see a lot of socially-progressive people who will shriek about 'cultural appropriation' but that sentiment of respecting cultures and skewed perception of cultural relativism suddenly fizzles up when it comes to Japanese media, because it's 'problematic' or 'offensive' to their limited worldview, and it disgusts me to see people argue that these things need to be fixed or censored or 'written out' in the adaptation process.

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Originally Posted by Telkira

It's because they want it to be *for* them. Like I see a lot of socially-progressive people who will shriek about 'cultural appropriation' but that sentiment of respecting cultures and skewed perception of cultural relativism suddenly fizzles up when it comes to Japanese media, because it's 'problematic' or 'offensive' to their limited worldview, and it disgusts me to see people argue that these things need to be fixed or censored or 'written out' in the adaptation process.

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Aaaand now we see what this is really about.

Nobody here is saying anything like that, I highly recommend you re-read the responses you've gotten.

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Originally Posted by PorxiesRCute

Aaaand now we see what this is really about.

Nobody here is saying anything like that, I highly recommend you re-read the responses you've gotten.

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I was responding to Kuroka's post.

If you actually read the substance of my post, instead of responding to a set of buzzwords, I was calling out the hypocrisy of people who will virtue signal over respecting cultural differences until said cultures offend them, or doing so is inconvenient for them.

Kuroka's post specifically mentioned liberties that are only present in the EN localization which DO go far, objectively, in that they deviate from the Japanese content in an egregious way.

Like when the localizers saw what Haurchefant's characterization was like in the JP release and felt the need to censor him, rather than just let him be presented as he was across all languages.

Or when the EN localizers felt the need to 'spice up' the description for Wind-up Moenbryda with an implication regarding Urianger's intentions that was not present in the Japanese text. It was later changed to be in-line with what was actually present in Japanese.

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This anatomically accurate representation of Moenbryda was secretly crafted by none other than Urianger immediately following the untimely passing of his beloved companion. What he did with it before it passed to your hands is a tale best left untold.

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which was changed to:

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This finely detailed tribute to Moenbryda was crafted in secret by none other than Urianger following the untimely passing of his beloved companion. Though known for her warm and jovial nature, the resolve within this doll's eyes perhaps speaks to the strength he admired in her.

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Specifically regarding the Haurchefant censorship, no shortage of EN players who approved of it, despite it being a blatant act of censorship that was even regarded as a mistake which they apologized for. A lot of the people who celebrated this change fell squarely within the 'hypocrite' camp. It's disgusting to see people talk about respecting cultures literally do the exact opposite.

I didn't respond to the 'certain VA' comments because I'm not interested in English VAs. I don't play the game with English voiceovers, and what I'm asking for in this thread is more in-line with the Japanese content but properly translated into English and not a 'dubtitle'.

I agree that Haurchefant shouldn't have been censored, but that had nothing to do with any fans "shrieking". It was translators observing that certain media tropes come across differently in different cultures. And the example with Wind-up Moenbryda is, like, the exact opposite of "socially progressive people shrieking"; it was a dumb masturbation joke that never should have been made.

But you know what, you've convinced me. I'm now 100% in favor of a faithful non-localized subtitle option, just so all the Gamers can finally see that there's no "SJW censorship" ruining their Pure Ideal Nihongo Story.

As one who is fluent in Japanese and English, and have passing knowledge of German, I agree with the OP.
The German version for example is quite literal in its translation and interpretation of the original Japanese (although in some places they take from the English version).
The English version takes a lot of liberties and adds things including character quirks and interpretation that did not exist in the Japanese version.
Examples:　　Achievement titles have way too many puns, and don’t resemble anything like the original... The achievement for reaching Samurai Level 50 is simply "Samurai Level 50" in Japanese but in English it's "Bushido Blade I".　 The achievement for the FF11 collaboration event back in 2015 was "Substitute Instructor for Iroha" but it was changed to "Heaven Eleven" in the English version. Similarly, things like "A Tankless Job" or "Tank you Paladin" is way to pun-intense. It seems like a bunch of sweaty fans got together smelling like doritos and went full-blown with their inside jokes... which really adds a cheap feeling to the overall product (This is why I mainly play the Japanese version).
Why do these "translators" need to add their own flavor?

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Originally Posted by PorxiesRCute

I agree that Haurchefant shouldn't have been censored, but that had nothing to do with any fans "shrieking". It was translators observing that certain media tropes come across differently in different cultures.

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I'm glad that you agree that it shouldn't have been censored, but if you pay attention to the discourse that happened regarding that, many people argued that his character was 'creepy' and needed to be censored, while completely ignoring that doing so would be logically incompatible with respecting foreign culture, which the game objectively is a product of since his character is not seen as problematic in Japan. Literally just a comedic trope that has existed for decades.

I blame most of the outcry on a lack of critical thinking and media literacy, but there were too many people who did have these skills, but didn't care because it offended them, so they celebrated the change.

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Originally Posted by PorxiesRCute

And the example with Wind-up Moenbryda is, like, the exact opposite of "socially progressive people shrieking"; it was a dumb masturbation joke that never should have been made.

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I could play devil's advocate and argue that the perception of it being perceived as a sex joke was just a lousy interpretation of the Japanese text's reference to 'unresolved feelings', but it clearly was just an example of liberties being taken too far.
Had they simply just translated it the original content, then no issue could have been able to arise.

The pendulum of cultural revisionism swings both ways, but I argue that it shouldn't swing at all, at least without a faithful alternative.

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Originally Posted by Telkira

I'm glad that you agree that it shouldn't have been censored, but if you pay attention to the discourse that happened regarding that, many people argued that his character was 'creepy' and needed to be censored, while completely ignoring that doing so would be logically incompatible with respecting foreign culture, which the game objectively is a product of since his character is not seen as problematic in Japan. Literally just a comedic trope that has existed for decades.

I blame most of the outcry on a lack of critical thinking and media literacy, but there were too many people who did have these skills, but didn't care because it offended them, so they celebrated the change.

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You have maybe half a point here; people did say "he was creepy in Japanese so it's good he was changed". But it's really interesting that you immediately leap to thinking it's because those people were offended. Is it not equally possible that, if he came across as a creep in English, people would simply find his heroic sacrifice less moving, and thus they think it's a better storytelling decision?

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Originally Posted by PorxiesRCute

You have maybe half a point here; people did say "he was creepy in Japanese so it's good he was changed". But it's really interesting that you immediately leap to thinking it's because those people were offended.

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I suppose it's not impossible for some Japanese audiences to feel uncomfortable with him, but based on how popular he is in the JP fanbase (see the FFXIV stickers for the messaging app LINE, which depicts him as a debauchee), it's safe to assume that he was popular as he was.
https://www.line-stickers.com/wp-con...XIV-Vol.-2.png

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Originally Posted by PorxiesRCute

Is it not equally possible that, if he came across as a creep in English, people would simply find his heroic sacrifice less moving, and thus they think it's a better storytelling decision?

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I don't think so, honestly. Most of the people who went so far as to call him a creep or a sexpest were an outspoken minority that many other players called out as overdramatic or emotional.
His sexual advances and comments were never intended to be, nor were they received by the majority of the playerbase (who saw the YT vids comparing him) as anything but comedic.
Many people (myself included) found it welcoming, since this made it feel more like a comedy bit from an anime and I thought it was a nice change of pace, considering the drollness of the setting.

None of that detracted from his characterization or his actions, and I would argue that the storytelling component of his rewrite was unfulfilled. It might've worked for some people, but not for me.

Keep in mind, even though I played with JP cutscenes/audio, I could tell that there was a discrepancy because some of his spoken Japanese was not aligning at all with what was appearing in the textbox, and it even went further because I could tell that something was missing.

I personally found his re-write to be uncomfortable. Not because I was put off by his revised dialog, but because it felt like there should have been more to his function as a character at that point in the story and within that droll and dreary setting. Even with the localized English text, it felt like something was missing, and when I inevitably found those aforementioned comparison vids on YT (with the text translated), it suddenly made sense.

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Originally Posted by Telkira

I don't think so, honestly. Most of the people who went so far as to call him a creep or a sexpest were an outspoken minority that many other players called out as overdramatic or emotional.

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To be clear (since I see now that my wording was awkward) I was specifically referring to the people who thought he was a creep or a sexpest in Japanese. I'm saying that there's an option besides them being "offended" by his behavior. Because I prefer not to automatically jump to the worst possible interpretation of people.

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Originally Posted by PorxiesRCute

To be clear (since I see now that my wording was awkward) I was specifically referring to the people who thought he was a creep or a sexpest in Japanese. I'm saying that there's an option besides them being "offended" by his behavior. Because I prefer not to automatically jump to the worst possible interpretation of people.

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ohhh okay. my apologies for misreading what it was you were trying to say before.

See, it really doesn't change what I said before, because people were still offended.

I don't think those matter all that much because a localizer's job shouldn't be to re-invent the narrative, only adapt it in a way that's more familiar to the target demographic. But because localization (as opposed to translation) inherently demands some degree of substantial revision, I don't think adhering to principles of consistency are as imperative as they should be.

And honestly, it shouldn't matter whether people agree or disagree with his re-write for story reasons because it's not what he was originally written as, and he was changed to avoid upsetting fans. It's not the same dialog, nor is it in-step with what the original writers has intended when they wrote him, so as far as I'm concerned, it's not the real Haurchefant that you're seeing, and the reactions/interactions surrounding him are inauthentic.

Many people in the West believed that it was better, but a lot of others vehemently disagreed. They shared my position on him and his purpose in the overall narrative, his role as a comic relief, and more importantly, his role as a friend to the main character were harmed by this re-write.

What happened with Haurchefant created an egregious disparity between the game's contents across languages, creating discomfort among fans who may feel that they are being deprived of something that other languages have, or might argue over what the definitive narrative may be, in addition to drastically changing how certain regions perceive things.

They want what the original Japanese artists and writers made, because ultimately it's their art that they're consuming. Not some middle-man's reinterpretation of its content. If the game were faithfully translated, without the unnecessary revisions and fluff, then it would still have it's mass appeal all the same.