All my combo rotation would be completely diferent. Completely diferent traits and skills.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
My gearing proceses would be diferent from those silly Fire Damage Wyvern Pet Dragoons.
The numbers would be green, tons of DoT.
Mechanically in most fights i wouldn't be jumping too much, and i wouldn't have any positionals compared to other dragoons, instead i would probably having to handle aggro.
I would be useless against bosses with DoT or poison, piercing damage, a bummer.
I would go as my Dark Damage HP Stealing Dark Knight, not much of a tank, more of a debuffer-self sustain DPS that one. But i love its DDR-Like rotation, you never know what cool debuff you will land next, sad part is there is no paralyzis nor confusion on demand, i'ts random.. Oh well. Ill just put more points into status effects in my Chaotic Fending Armor.
We have the classes.
Now they need to look like GW2 ones.
Where everyone can tank, heal, dps, support or do all four or any combination as you see fit. The meta will be meta with balance or no. Let people have fun.
I wanna do millions of damage to marine enemies, fuck i hate The Tempest.
Evolution Of Final Fantasy 14 Combat Each Expansion
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08-23-2023, 08:59 AMAlexandre_Noireau
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08-23-2023, 09:18 AMShurrikhanOkay. What are you willing to sacrifice for it? If all of its traits and skills are different, you are effectively asking for a different job. And that's for one build.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexandre_Noireau
Unless you mean to get only what your particular, idiosyncratic desire (your "poison damage evasion tank Dragoon") rather than allowing similar options to others, how many more builds that have almost nothing in common with each other ("completely diferent traits and skills") must therefore be developed?
We get 2 jobs per expansion. The expenditure on job quests becomes increasingly little, leaving most of the expense among the job's actions' and traits' mechanics, names, icons, and visuals (which you want to be "completely diferent" from their base jobs). At best, that means you'd get one additional build per expansion across 2 or 3 jobs, in place of having any new jobs for the remainder of the game. Nevermind also that these new builds, to provide the worldbuilding that altogether new jobs provide, would then need to take up those otherwise skipped expenses, too.
And that design scheme means that you specifically rotate which jobs are allowed into a given fight. A and B are effectively barred, and C is obligatory in its role.Quote:
I would be useless against bosses with DoT or poison, piercing damage, a bummer.
That is unless, of course, you make it so...
...in which case, you may well make it so players just stack the advantaged job and all other jobs are effectively barred.Quote:
everyone can tank, heal, dps, support or do all four or any combination as you see fit
No. The width/breadth of a meta, i.e., the freedom to be able to play most/all content with many and varied jobs, is dependent on balance. Completely lacking balance means that only one job is permitted in any content with any meaningful difficulty.Quote:
The meta will be meta with balance or no.
Being able to play a multitude of builds as more than mere role-play in a field or hallway sprint simulators (if even that) is because of balance, not despite it.
I don't even...Quote:
I wanna do millions of damage to marine enemies, fuck i hate The Tempest.
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Edit: I, similarly, would like to see more jobs-first, rather than roles-first, design. I'd like to see the jobs each have a bit more versatility in their own ways. But designing for that is a huge task, and it needs to be efficient to be at all feasible. You can have large gameplay differences in practice even from few or subtle differences on paper, so focus on what's actually efficient.
A high-SkS Monk, for instance, has tended to feel quite different from a low-SkS (i.e., Crit-focused) Monk due to its different rotational options unlocked by that SkS and its slight deemphasis of certain other (usually, more rigidly constrained) actions. But many other on-paper differences result in either no change to gameplay (merely being obliged or disallowed in this encounter or that one nonetheless while doing the exact same actions), very little relative to their costs, or even outright harm gameplay by effectively just pruning actions through upgrades to the remaining kit (to the point of overwhelming everything else).
If you want expanded thematic and gameplay options for the existing jobs, you'll want to decide on a small but potent set of additional undermechanics that can be easily and intuitively affected to significant gameplay effect. Which, no, is not easy. But that's the only way it ends up doable. -
08-24-2023, 07:48 AMAlexandre_NoireauNo you don't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
The current and very boring classes of XIV have nothing going for them. Everyone gears the same, plays the same. Boring.
Bring back status effects, effective on bosses, elemental resistances damage, several trait lines to chose in every single class, at least 7 trait lines for each class, pick up 3, change your class trait profile on the fly just as you change class.
You could have your meta efficient build.
And then some of us could actually have fun instead of repeating the same rotation for years on end. -
08-24-2023, 09:35 AMShurrikhanI would agree that each class has room to improve and that some are in desperate need of such. Additional customization, let alone to the point of being able to make a "poison DRG evasion tank" is not likely required in order do that, however.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexandre_Noireau
Nearly, but not quite. Certain jobs have changed their gameplay in ways almost as significant as the differences between the GCD rotational flow of a given job and its nearest analog just through increased Haste (Spell Speed or, especially, Skill Speed).Quote:
Everyone gears the same
It's worth noting here also what areas of customization have made no difference whatsoever to gameplay (such as, essentially... all of the other stats).
That depends on what you mean by this.Quote:
[Everyone] plays the same.
- Does each player of a given job play the same as each other player of that same job?
No, not really, if only because some play well and some play poorly, with notable differences in their actions.
- Does each player have the same methods and degree of optimization available to them as any other player of that job?
Yes, apart from the aforementioned variations resulting from Haste.
- Does each job play like any other job?
No, not particularly -- and certainly no more than would also be true under your system.
- Does each job play like any other job in its role?
Somewhat. For Tanks and Healers, arguably yes. For DPS, not particularly.
I'd concur / come to the same conclusion for different reasons, but I suspect you'll find little actual agreement with your argument so long as the only criteria you've brought to this so far to make a job not "boring" are...Quote:
Boring.
- whether each job would have a variety of builds to it (which is of virtually no gameplay difference from simply having as many more jobs as that same amount of development work could produce), and
- whether it would have fights it's specifically advantaged on (would deal "millions of damage" per attack) and fights it's disadvantaged ("useless") on.
To be clear, since all buffs and debuffs are "status effects", do you mean specifically the likes of Stun, Silence, Pacify, Heavy, Slow, and Bind?Quote:
Bring back status effects, effective on bosses,
I could see ways that could help, but also ways that just devolves into exactly what little use Esuna and Interject carry right now, effectively arriving at button-bloat for having no range of use case.
A mechanic that deals damage can be dealt with in myriad ways that give room for synergies within and between job kits. A mechanic that wipes the raid unless silenced is simply "I see mechanic X; I hit button X", with no room for nuance.
Again, if you want to involve elements, elemental resistances are about the worst way you could possibly do so, as they exist only to remove elements from gameplay by barring whatever elements/builds are thereby negatively affected. This is even worse when an element is empowered against a specific mob, as, unless restricted by cooldowns, it bars all other elements.Quote:
elemental resistances damage
If you want element-based gameplay, a better bet is to create undermechanics for each element that can behave synergetically with each other and can have varying contextual value (and not just based on the victim of those elemental attacks).
Now we're getting somewhere. I could easily get behind this, so long as the traits expand and tweak gameplay, rather than merely what content one can be taken for.Quote:
several trait lines to chose in every single class, at least 7 trait lines for each class, pick up 3, change your class trait profile on the fly just as you change class.
That said, at an average of pick-3-of-7 traits, you're effectively producing 35 times the number of jobs (or now "builds"). Worse, because their strengths each depend on that of 34 other jobs/builds, the development costs for that gameplay complexity will be quite a bit higher.
Visual and story assets are done by different talent, so it's not as if you'd be stealing away job quests and relic gear and new visuals, but that also means there's nowhere from which to take the development time you would need to develop your desired ~714 additional jobs.
Your system will not avoid meta builds; it will more likely exacerbate the sense that choice is "an illusion".Quote:
You could have your meta efficient build.
In fact, because you've removed the opportunity costs in gearing and leveling from customization, people will be less encouraged to be understanding of jobs which typically provide less value (for the amount of effort typically put in by a player of the given content level).
That's not to say it's hopeless --after all, we already play more than one job per sub-role-- it's just that your idea will not remotely solve that "issue".*
*(Which is not so much an issue, anyways, as simply a natural consequence of a game's design being what it is, with low quality-control surrounding our choices meaning low diversity in the choices actually taken.)
To be fair, you have the same choice now unless you are utterly unwilling to multi-class. At which point, the same issue would apply to those who, in your system, would not be willing to "multi-build".Quote:
And then some of us could actually have fun instead of repeating the same rotation for years on end.
"Poison Evasion DRG or bust" is going to see the same rotational stagnancy as anyone playing just "DRG or bust".
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Tl;dr:
The only real difference between your system and the current one is that yours effectively askes the dev team to lay off a portion of their artists and writers (e.g., those responsible for relic armor, new weapon types, new class lore, new jobs' quests, etc.) for more talent working only with mechanics and balance of the existing jobs' kits (assuming they could even be hired, trained, and retained), since you'll simply have replaced new jobs with new build options of existing jobs.
To get to even your minimum desires (at least 7 new trait paths, with 3 choices that can be simultaneously taken), we'd have to, effectively, provide 735 different job-builds. While, in your design, each build would only be able to do a portion of content, that's still a lot to balance against each other, let alone create gameplay diversity from/among. Those development costs will not come out of thin air. - Does each player of a given job play the same as each other player of that same job?
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08-24-2023, 09:59 AMEastwallSo Guild wars 2 has "trait lines" you build, and the result was a skilled player can actually do 10 times more dps than a new player. SE probably didn't want that thus the class dumb down.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexandre_Noireau
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08-24-2023, 10:15 AMShurrikhanThe "skill" used to choose the combination of a trait lines that did "10 times more dps" being... basic internet literacy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eastwall
What you're selling as a positive there would be that the meta choice could so badly wipe the floor with off meta choices that most options were non-choices... -
08-24-2023, 10:57 AMAlexandre_NoireauNot my fault that SE is a bad company and doesn't invest in their games :xQuote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
But yeah, thats basically it.
This could be a fun game, but you would have to pay for that.
And you are still boring, elements are the best.
And honestly, no one cared.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eastwall
So dumb and boring.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eastwall
My Necromancer has more variety in gameplay than all classes, including DoL/DoH, of XIV combined.
And we were nerfed. Bad.
Still rocking, shit is unstoppable. -
08-24-2023, 11:34 AMShurrikhanI feel I legitimately have to ask, since you're giving every sign to the contrary: Have you actually even played with an elemental resistances system?Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexandre_Noireau
I'm beginning to think you don't actually care about (having things to do in) gameplay so much as just finding OP builds and being able to cheese everything...Quote:
My Necromancer has more variety in gameplay than all classes, including DoL/DoH, of XIV combined.
And we were nerfed. Bad.
Still rocking, shit is unstoppable.
Would certainly explain your offhand dismissal of any actual optimization and your detesting balance...
(Necromancer is "still rocking, shit is unstoppable" because it's still comparatively powerful for its effort required.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPSHQawZwnk -
08-24-2023, 11:51 AMAbsimiliard
Lemme just drop a word from the distant past, from deep within the burning corridors of Molten Core and the frozen halls of Naxxramas.
Having to deal with elemental resistance gear is a gigantic pain in the ass. It's not fun. It basically equates to collecting a bunch of specialized gear (and gimping your DPS/healing/overall survivability/whatever in the process) just so you can survive. The other side of that coin was crap like fire elementals (and, more importantly, Ragnaros) laughing at attempts to deal fire damage to them. That kinda screwed fire mages, destruction warlocks, and to a lesser degree certain variations of demo warlock completely out of being able to play their preferred spec for that content. Naxxramas, on the other hand, told frost mages to go throw themselves off a cliff. -
08-24-2023, 11:57 AMShurrikhanAye. It's only ever been rotating blacklist for builds that doubles as a way to shrink gameplay on what affected classes are still allowed to attend.Quote:
Originally Posted by Absimiliard
How very... fun?
???