Dark Knight dungeon survivability suggestion

I only assume that DRK has the lowest healing is because it has the highest shields among the tanks the only other equivalent to TBN in terms is pure ehp is WAR's ToB and that only increases HP by 20% but with convalescence effect. I guess in Yoshi's eyes and the current heavy mitigation meta, shields > heals. There's a reason why healer shields don't stack while healer dots do. Personally I think its just ppl who don't use TBN on cd during wall to wall pulls in dungeons and sit on 0 MP and expect the healer to carry them. The point of DRK's mitigation is to prevent the damage from happening in the first place and not recovering from it after (which is what WAR already does).

However I will agree that Oblation is bloat. They could have easily made Dark Mind upgrade into Oblation and add the 10% physical mitigation and 2 charge via trait and it would function nearly identical to what Oblation is now.

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Originally Posted by Marxam

I only assume that DRK has the lowest healing is because it has the highest shields among the tanks the only other equivalent to TBN in terms is pure ehp is WAR's ToB and that only increases HP by 20% but with convalescence effect.

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Well, TBN is 25% vs. ToB's 20%, but...

In general, unless there's significant value in making one immune to a debuff via said barrier, a current-and-maximum HP buff of X% is generally going to be better than a short-lived barrier of the same X% HP.

The first raises your maximum eHP for a duration, allowing that eHP increase to be refreshed while also providing the flat bonus to eHP at its start that the barrier provides. The latter is a one-time use. Unless it nullifies a debuff, it's simply inferior, with less that can be done with it.

Add to that the +20% healing taken effect and yeah, ToB is generally better. But... it is also an actual CD, not the on-demand. (Though, WAR's on-demand also tends to be half again as strong as TBN, albeit with half again the CD of TBN. NF's double-healing is the real kicker, tbh, rather than single-target Bloodwhetting.)

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They could have easily made Dark Mind upgrade into Oblation and add the 10% physical mitigation and 2 charge via trait and it would function nearly identical to what Oblation is now.

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You'd need a slight tweak atop that for actual parity.

Without a cooldown reduction, what you suggested would be a nerf for the simple fact that you've only added half of Oblation's value to Dark Mind, instead of the whole.

Remember, you had both before, cooling separately. Combined without any cooldown reduction, you'll have removed Oblation's 10% magical mitigation from the kit entirely and bound up its 10% physical mitigation dependent on popping your 20% anti-magic mitigation skill. Even putting aside the in-practice loss from less fine control, that's a flat nerf of 10s per minute of 10% magical mitigation.

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Originally Posted by Oizen

I don't really agree, mainly because I've been asked to flex onto WAR a few times this tier and its been really really easy getting a hang of the job. Core rotation difficulty is about the same, save for DRK's higher apm but it’s not so much higher that it’s notable.

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I’ve had the opposite experience in that I main warrior and have been comfortable flexing to dark knight without issues*. I’ve no interest in this tier though, so if it was designed as an anti-drk series then I may have more issues. Hopefully the job-encounter design is a bit more polished next expansion.

*except that time I tried to rely on inner releases innate kb resist for dog1.

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Originally Posted by fulminating

I’ve had the opposite experience in that I main warrior and have been comfortable flexing to dark knight without issues*. I’ve no interest in this tier though, so if it was designed as an anti-drk series then I may have more issues. Hopefully the job-encounter design is a bit more polished next expansion.

*except that time I tried to rely on inner releases innate kb resist for dog1.

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A little bit, its not as notable or as a direct assassionation as Abyssos felt for WAR's regen. But the bleeds are less common and physical damage is way more common.
Its enough for me to think that Missionary and heart should be changed to all damage type mitigation, but its not the end of the world. I've cleared through p10 and 11 as it is now.

It's not just dungeons. War is better in every single piece of content in the game, and frankly i just wish the job didn't exist at this point. Legacy ultimates, savage, extremes, casual content.. *everything*.
War is the fat, massively overweight favourite child among the tanks that gets spoonfed candy and chocolate every patch.

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Originally Posted by Oizen

And not WAR?

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Warrior mains feel entitled to be immortal for free.

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Originally Posted by fulminating

It's the last fraction of warrior's identity as the hp tank and in meaningless content. Why must everything be identical?

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Homogenisation didn't seem to be a problem when other tanks had their damage brought up to, and above Drk's.

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Originally Posted by fulminating

It's the last fraction of warrior's identity as the hp tank and in meaningless content. Why must everything be identical?

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I just want IR/BW/NF's functionality reverted back to Shadowbringers' %damage->healing, and Nascent Flash adjusted such that --rather than both WAR and the target ally healing fully-- only the target ally's overhealing would be transferred back to the Warrior or vice versa. At absolute most, give non-overhealing only 50% transfer back to the Warrior, a la Clemency.

Goat, you’ve never even played the actual dark knight. We can all see your achievements page and there’s not one before 2020. As people have repeatedly claimed in the past, damage is not a valid identity. It wasn’t for warrior, it isn’t for dark knight. Dark knight actually has less of a claim to it given historical precedent, but nevertheless it doesn’t and shouldn’t matter.

Yeah I think shadowbringers had a significantly better approach to nf/ri. I would rather they kept the 5.3 change to allow targeting self though, if only because it wasn’t as utterly braindead to stay alive with it. That said it’ll be a bit easier with orogeny and the abundance of inner releases now that it’s down to 60s. Also the shake changes should be reverted, being able to sac mit for a bigger shield is enough. It didn’t need the heal and it didn’t need the hot. I don’t really have any faith that sensible changes are incoming though, both support roles have been in terminal decline for years.

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Originally Posted by fulminating

Goat, you’ve never even played the actual dark knight. We can all see your achievements page and there’s not one before 2020. As people have repeatedly claimed in the past, damage is not a valid identity. It wasn’t for warrior, it isn’t for dark knight. Dark knight actually has less of a claim to it given historical precedent, but nevertheless it doesn’t and shouldn’t matter.

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I can only imagine how much more furious Goat and others who started DRK in 5.0 would be if they were there for Stormblood and prior. Stormblood DRK is still the most fun I ever had tanking in any mmo.

To repeat yeah, damage isn't, and shouldn't be, considered an identity. The amount of dps it deals is meaningless if it feels like garbage to play for the majority of its rotation.

...Which is why people are now moving away from it and it's seeing a lot less use. Even without the self-healing, why would the hardcore play Dark Knight for the dps when they can now play Warrior which feels much better to play, even if it gets boring because of how mindlessly easy it is?

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Originally Posted by fulminating

Yeah I think shadowbringers had a significantly better approach to nf/ri. I would rather they kept the 5.3 change to allow targeting self though, if only because it wasn’t as utterly braindead to stay alive with it. That said it’ll be a bit easier with orogeny and the abundance of inner releases now that it’s down to 60s. Also the shake changes should be reverted, being able to sac mit for a bigger shield is enough. It didn’t need the heal and it didn’t need the hot. I don’t really have any faith that sensible changes are incoming though, both support roles have been in terminal decline for years.

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Warrior in general during Shadowbringers hit a good middle ground, I will never understand why they thought its healing needed to be even stronger than it already was. It's unnecessarily potent in literally every type of battle content in the game. I'm still baffled by splitting Nascent Flash into two abilities, it was fine as it was as a single button.

I want to believe they have something in store for tanks/healers in 7.0, but I'm not getting my expectations up. I know they can design better than this, they can do better than this, it's what makes it so disheartening to see the current state of things.