Returning Miasma and Shadowflare would absolutely still be viable in today's content. There's no reason why additional buttons do not work on a healer. If anything the issue is the amount of buttons SCH has to deal with, but that has more to do with them being more bloated than they need to be. SCH kind of needs a rework to clear up its focus cause it's kinda all over the place. Even Yoshida blatantly stated they have no idea where to go with SCH moving forward.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gemina
SCH began its identity as a healer that focused on DoT management and enfeebling enemies with debuffs that made them weaker with tools like Virus and Eye for an Eye and this was the core aspect of SCH's identity up until ShB. That's a playstyle many people enjoyed, myself included, and now it's gone and we're not allowed to play it. I think that's something that should've been respected, and if it's not a playstyle you enjoyed, then it probably wasn't the best job for you. It would be nice if each healer had their own unique styles, that way if one healer didn't appeal to you, there's a chance another might. And that's also why I hope we continue to see new healers in the future, even if they're released slowly. But that does of course imply that healers gain the freedom to have unique playstyles apart from one another.
How to easily have healers dps engaged ( yet another thread)
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09-16-2022, 11:35 PMty_taurus
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09-16-2022, 11:48 PMNizziAbsolutely incorrect. The Scholars of Nym were Arcanists to begin with, you can go to the Lodestone page for Scholar to read the blurb that says - "In an age long past, when mankind flourished under the radiance of arcane mastery, the island of Vylbrand was home to a city-state called Nym."Quote:
Originally Posted by Gemina
The link to ACN to SCH isn't in name alone, it's built into the lore and still is, regardless of you liking that or not. In fact, the original 1.0 lore for Arcanist was supposed to be centered around a plague - Las Vegas Fanfest 2014: “In Limsa Lominsa, the original Arcanist quest that was supposed to be released in 1.0 was actually about this disease spreading around La Noscea called the Green Rot. It would infect all of these people and they would die. To make money off of this, a bunch of merchants would try to smuggle in snake oils and tonics and things like that, and try to sell those to the people dying so they could get their money because they knew they were going to die anyway and were desperate."
Sound familiar? Seems almost like how Scholar's entire job questline and lore is dealing with plagues... so fitting for Miasma, Shadow Flare, Bane, etc to be apart of SCH's kit. Much more than Eos or Selene using attacks - something they have NEVER done.
If we're going to bring up the "lore" argument when it comes to gameplay, this is why wanting the fae gauge to have damage associated with it wouldn't work. "These learned men and women defended the freedom of their tiny nation with their unique command over spell-weaving faeries, utilizing the creatures' magicks to heal the wounded and bolster the strength of their allies." Outside of that, the faeries shouldn't have damage associated with them at all, because it throws Scholar's healing priority out of alignment when the faeries have always been Scholar's main source of totally free healing.
Scholar has not moved forward at all, it has been a continual worsening of the job. For every one good thing Scholar gets, it gets two good things taken away from it. I have no idea why you would think that something like SB SCH wouldn't be viable in today's content - is that based off of your experiences healing in Savage on SCH this tier?Quote:
I much rather see SCH continue to move forward than revert back to a time where I am not even sure if it would still be viable in today's content.
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09-17-2022, 12:24 AMIceBlueNinja
make blue mage a full time job. blue healer is fun and can have tons of rotation lol. Hope they hurry with lvl 80 cap for blue Seriously the fact mimic cry makes you do the 3 role types and some skills are affected base on role is really what can make this job full potential. it has good migi heals damage.. heck evuvation a nice aoe heal with esuna in it to boot if in heal stance. esuna on full time healers is a joke.
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09-17-2022, 06:51 AMGeminaAre you really concluding that SCH's were ACN's to begin with based on "Arcane Mastery"? Is this the depth of your knowledge of SCH lore? If so, these links might help:Quote:
Originally Posted by Nizzi
What it means to be a Scholar - Uploader Synonic Scribe
Scholar, post 7th Umbral Calamity - Uploader Sync Weaver
War of the Magi, and the 5th Astral Era - Uploader Synonic Scribe
A little Arcanist lore - Uploader Wyrm Limion
A little Summoner lore - Uploader Synonic Scribe
Of course, I don't expect you to look at all of those. They do make for some good viewing if you have about an hour and fresh cup of coffee. I am posting these more as source material to show - a lot of it verbatim from the encyclopedia - that SCH roots really aren't defined by the ACN class, or even really by damage.
What is really important to note is that classes have their own lore. Some classes keep the ties stronger from class to job, but every class, and every job has their own lore. In the case of ACN, SMN, and SCH they all weave spells in a similar fashion, but they are each their own separate schools of arcane arts, or magic. How each of them came about to use a book/codex/grimoire as their arms can be traced to the southern continent, and it is likely from here these practices branched into their respective arts.
The green plague you refer to, if the same as I recall, was foulplay at the hands of the mages of Mhach. It had absolutely nothing to do with how the SCHs of Nym practiced their arcane arts. The SCHs of Nym were mostly pacifists, and desired to stay out of the conflicts between the city states of Amdapor and Mhach. It was the latter's inevitable desire for the conquest of Nym and their resources that really forced their hands and aid of the mages of Amdapor.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nizzi
The SCHs of Nym were practiced in battle tactics and strategy. Their strength lied not in their own combat prowess, but rather their ability to direct and command their fellow marauders into organized and optimized battle formations in combination of the deployment of their shields and curative magiks to assist and support their allies to easily overwhelm their opposition. This whole Bio+Misama into Bane, then slap on a ShadowFlare... that is ALL Arcanist.
Again I will recommend the links to brush up on your knowledge. The SCH's fairy wasn't always sentient. To this day, no one really knows how this came to be. Because of this, we really don't know exactly what they are capable of. No we haven't seen them cause damage, but I also wasn't being strict that the damage had to come from Lily. Only that she be involved somehow with the animation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nizzi
Sure it has. It's the players pining for 3.x SCH that have remained stagnant. The rest of the game, and SCH has moved on. Going on five years now. Holster your savage tier epeen bud. I merely said I was not sure if it would be viable, but just because you say it is, doesn't make it so. I don't need to run savage or ultimate to know that SCH's offensive kit was consolidated into Broil and War. I don't need to run savage to know that if SCHs old kit was just thrusted back into their repertoire, they would need some serious adjustments, to you know, make it viable for content.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nizzi
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09-17-2022, 07:09 AMGeminaOk, for the sake of argument let's just say I agree with you. Why do these abilities have to be Miasma and Shadowflare? Why can't SCH get entirely new offensive skills?Quote:
Originally Posted by ty_taurus
Again, this is ACN. SCHs identity revolves around shields, curative magic, and being proactive strategists assisting the melee and other more offensive members of the brigade.Quote:
Originally Posted by ty_taurus
If this is how you feel, then perhaps take these words to the mirror if you are currently dissatisfied with the current state of SCH and the healers. I think that's pretty fair, wouldn't you?Quote:
Originally Posted by ty_taurus
It's kind of already like that. Healers haven't been stripped entirely of their individuality, and I indeed do have preferences of which healer I take into which content. I seriously doubt I am alone on this regard. Perhaps here on the forums I am, but in-game, not even close.Quote:
It would be nice if each healer had their own unique styles, that way if one healer didn't appeal to you, there's a chance another might. And that's also why I hope we continue to see new healers in the future, even if they're released slowly. But that does of course imply that healers gain the freedom to have unique playstyles apart from one another.
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09-17-2022, 07:33 AMSupersnow845People seem to misunderstand this point in particular when talking about homogenisation, it’s not the idea that since you have medica 2 and I have succor and they don’t do exactly the same thing that means the jobs are sufficiently different it’s the fact that no matter which healer you pick you will functionally be doing the same thing, spam 111111, maybe weave a heal after the raidwide it all feels exactly the same, same as how basically every DPS except BLM basically amounts to “boring filler rotation then dump everything in the burstQuote:
Originally Posted by Gemina
And on the subject of SCH’s skills, it doesn’t have to bake or miasma but it also certainly shouldn’t be something cutesy like “fey beam” broil is literally cooking your opponent alive from the inside, bane and miasma are just good examples because literally nobody likes new SCH better than old SCH -
09-17-2022, 07:57 AMty_taurusWell strictly from a game design standpoint, the assets associated with Miasma (as well as Miasma II and Miasma III) and Shadowflare were made and still exist for use. That's not to say new abilities shouldn't be made, but if we're trying to restore SCH's identity as a more offensive healer, then why not use the tools already at their disposal? Because you specifically are not a fan of them? And I don't meant that to sound mean or harsh, but there's not a real reason as to why those tools don't work on SCH. And SCH's identity also included those spells. SCH's identity as an offensive DoT healer was defined by its combination of those spells and its barriers. One was not superior to the other.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gemina
I don't really feel like the sass is called for. I'm not trying to attack you, but regardless, that argument doesn't hold water. Reinstating their old offensive tools on principle does not mean that SCH's barriers are being taken away, or any other aspects of their kit. What are you afraid of losing? I'm sorry you didn't like old SCH, but in a scenario where someone rips a toy out of one child's toy and gives that toy to the other doesn't make that right from my perspective.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gemina
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09-17-2022, 08:07 AMRilifane
While I also have a preference for which healer to play, the lack of identity and distinct gameplay shows in how easily you can pick up any healer and perform well on it if you've gotten the basics of playing a healer well down like avoiding GCD heals unless a life depends on it, spreading out resources, letting regens do the work etc.
All 4 healers have skills you can easily use in place of something the others have and barely notice a difference, if any. It requires content to really push your toolkit to notice the small differences and that's something that generally only happens in early tier clears of the upper floors and Ultimates.
How often does anyone consciously pair Fey Illumination with Pneuma to mitigate first and get a stronger heal afterwards? How often does anyone consciously use the heal buff from Asylum or Physis II to better spread resources or snapshot stronger Seraph shields? How often is the CU mitigation vital and is not just used as another generic regen? How often does it matter whether you use COpp or Star to heal? The differences are there in theory but one of the things that shows a lack of identity and disctinct gameplay is the lack of difference they make in practice barring extremely challenging content with two healers that really want to push their dps.
And let's not even start with 1 dot, 1 filler and that one extra dps button on a cooldown/ on charges that's the same across all healers. -
09-17-2022, 11:12 AMNizziYou said you wanted the gauge to build up to damage. Even if SCH's gauge is underwhelming, it is still for healing. The faerie doesn't need to have damage at all. Scholar is the only healer left with healing priority that isn't "lol just touch your GCDs last" and that would ruin it. Are you someone who likes Energy Drain? Then you should understand how healing priority plays into how Scholar interacts with Aetherflow. Are you someone who hates Energy Drain? Then you should see why turning a free healing source into damage would ruin it. Leave the faerie alone. Get rid of the gauge before giving them damage abilities. The opportunity cost of a lost Embrace alone is enough for me to hate it. (coincidentally part of the reason Fey Union and the gauge suck in general).Quote:
Originally Posted by Gemina
SCH hasn't moved on lmfao, why do you think people ask for these things back? It's because they STILL fit into how Scholar plays today. Scholar of 3.x or 4.x is the Scholar of 6.x with faeries no longer on the petGCD and a gutted DPS kit. That's minorly reductive, but it's true. The job hasn't evolved. That's the problem. You know why you can't just slap Bio and Miasma back on SMN? Because they reworked the job entirely and there's no where for GCD DoTs to fit rotationally. SCH could have Miasma, Bane and Shadow Flare added back TOMORROW and it wouldn't break the flow of Scholar. You could add back Quickened Aetherflow and it wouldn't break the flow of Scholar, and actually with how much of a DPS gain Energy Drain is this expansion, Quickened Aetherflow would be a massive QoL for SCH that would make it way more fun to play and give it more to think about as Aetherflow would be a 45s resource instead of a 60s one that is always up for 2 minute burst windows to be dumped.Quote:
Sure it has. It's the players pining for 3.x SCH that have remained stagnant. The rest of the game, and SCH has moved on. Going on five years now.
Do you see what I'm getting at? People ask for these things not because they're in love with the concept of poison magic, but because the healers haven't moved on. They're continually limping along. They're the bare minimum requirement for a healer. That's all they are. They've had fun things taken away from them, and they've been given nothing in exchange. These jobs haven't moved on at all, and it's comical to suggest otherwise.
I asked because when discussing things like "viability" it's important to know whether or not someone does the content that they're making these assumptions about. What keeps Scholar viable is not the fact that Miasma's potency was consolidated into Biolysis, it's Chain Stratagem and how the current meta favors rDPS and crits above all and jobs that benefit from it, like SCH. You could even remove Energy Drain (at least for last tier, it will be a while before we have the numbers for this tier) and SCH would still out DPS SGE due to how busted Chain is and how much rDPS it contributes to SCH - Energy Drain is only like a 5% variance on SCH's DPS and SCH is out DPSing SGE without it entirely.Quote:
Holster your savage tier epeen bud. I merely said I was not sure if it would be viable, but just because you say it is, doesn't make it so. I don't need to run savage or ultimate to know that SCH's offensive kit was consolidated into Broil and War. I don't need to run savage to know that if SCHs old kit was just thrusted back into their repertoire, they would need some serious adjustments, to you know, make it viable for content.
But yes, you can get offended as much as you like to believe I have a "savage tier epeen" but I ask because I've played Scholar in savage last tier, and I played it in savage in Shadowbringers. I'm doing Black Mage this tier on my alt that has no healers at all because I don't want to contribute to any metrics they have for healers any longer, but I can show the proof that I've played Scholar at a Savage level this expansion. I asked because I was legitimately curious - is this tier different for Scholar on a level where regaining more of its lost DPS kit would render it unviable? Regardless, I never said it would be viable (it absolutely would, Chain keeps SCH meta in Savage regardless if it has 1 DoT or 5), but I get it, you make assumptions about content you don't do. -
09-17-2022, 01:49 PMGeminaThe fact that a preference exists is case enough to show that identity and individuality are still present among the healers, and all other jobs/roles in the game. Arguments of homogenization end here. We can always boil things down to '1111', and filler rotations. Even back in HW, it could still be reduced down to this. This isn't some kind of new phenomena that came with ShB. I get the desire for a more intricate and sophisticated encounter design that allows for jobs even within a given role to truly be their own thing, but that just isn't the direction this dev team has chosen to go. That kind of design paves the way towards forced comps, and they have been very clear that they want to avoid this. But I digress. Your original question for me was why I oppose the return of skills like Miasma.Quote:
Originally Posted by Supersnow845
And right here is what I mean when I talk about being stuck in the past. It's the inability to compromise. Not only does SCH need more offensive buttons, they also can't be this, or that? It has to be your way or the highway. It can't be "cute"? Based off of what? Some warped idea that SCHs weave offensive spells that eat their opponents from the inside out? This doesn't sound like any SCH I am aware of. Are you really going to let the sound effect of the current Broil redefine the entire lore of this job? A ridiculously adorable fairy follows these guys wherever they go. Just in case you were not aware. SCH is a healer, and the majority of its kit revolves around supporting their allies. The job is more in line with its lore now than it has ever been.Quote:
And on the subject of SCH’s skills, it doesn’t have to bake or miasma but it also certainly shouldn’t be something cutesy like “fey beam” broil is literally cooking your opponent alive from the inside, bane and miasma are just good examples because literally nobody likes new SCH better than old SCH
And I like it. I was a SCH back when I joined in 2015, and I am a SCH now. I am completely aware that I don't speak for the entire healer community, but I am a paid subscriber and each of us has a voice. I'll be damned if my viewpoints are moot because I don't conform to the consensus on the forums that healing in FFXIV is atrocious.