Building a better Alphinaud

I'd prefer to see a lot less of Alphinaud going forward. Alisaie isnt too bad because shes less preachy, demeaning and self-righteous. But alphy is something else. And like OP said, dude's been going through the same recurring arc for years now. Time to retire methinks. I think most of the scions do. I was so disappointed when we were back with the gang in 6.1.

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

Uh ... Isghard pre 3.0? They're a prime example of isolationism. No contact, no trade, no diplomatic mission (where you can find a whole range of consulates in Hingashi) with very little info known about the inside and very little care about what happening on the outside. Hingashi despite the secretive of their government, is still too integrated to be consider a real isolationist.

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Hingashi is way worse than Ishgard. While yes Kugane has consulates and stuff but with Hingashi, we are just on the smallest island of Shishu and there's still the whole main island of Koshu that we never even get to get close too. Its like Camp Dragonhead / Ishgard proper x10

My only thing we sure its not just a wording localization issue concerning Alphy's progression? Maybe some things about his growth got lost in translation in EW?

I dont think so. I read the quest in English and German and asked some friends that are fluent in other languages (French, japanese) and Alphi behaves as if he never learns and never made any experience at all. As if he is in a timeloop or has a very bad memory.

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Also, having Endwalker open with Alphinaud referring to Estinien as “Lord Estinien” was so ridiculous that I could hardly believe it. It’s as if he forgot how Estinien likes being treated despite having already gone on an adventure with him in the past. That in particular stuck out and bothered me.

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Did you miss the riposte from Estinien when he called Alphinaud "Little lord"? The two are teasing each other, Estinien knows that Alphy sees him as an older brother.

Remember his speech to Alphinaud when he joined the Scions? "You are idealistic to a fault..." and yet on his face you see a grudging respect, watching Alphinaud's face as he listens as he would an older brother trying to guide him, or Estiniens gruff rebuke to Fordola's' snarl about getting them all killed?

The relationship between them is growing, true, but there is affection and respect.

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Originally Posted by Banriikku

I dont think so. I read the quest in English and German and asked some friends that are fluent in other languages (French, japanese) and Alphi behaves as if he never learns and never made any experience at all. As if he is in a timeloop or has a very bad memory.

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I'm a little confused by this take, because I'm not sure what lesson Alphinaud is supposed to be "learning" he's consistestly been a person who tries to use diplomacy and rhetoric to convince people to help each other or cooperate.

In ARR his arrogance led him to surrounding himself with yes-men who flattered and manipulated him while they plotted the bloody banquent, and HW has his dealing with self-pity for that incident. But it's not like he was supposed to learn that using diplomacy and rhetoric was a bad thing, so of course he goes back to trying it in ShB and EW. He's remained confident and steadfast in his values, but I don't really see him as arrogant anymore.

Spoiler from Endwalker MSQ in addition, hidden as per protocol..more in Estinien and Alphy....

"Besides, seeing you with your mother brought back fond memories of my own. Be we rich or poor, family is...family"

Watch that entire scene...and Alphys face.

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Originally Posted by GrizzlyTank

Are you going to nitpick every single thing?

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Typical Scions hater as well.

While I agree Alphinaud was pretty spoiled back then, the end of ARR story changes him into better person.

Also Him and Estinien are just teasing each other guys, geez. Now we see here who's not watching the cutscene :)

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Originally Posted by KariTheFox

I'm a little confused by this take, because I'm not sure what lesson Alphinaud is supposed to be "learning" he's consistestly been a person who tries to use diplomacy and rhetoric to convince people to help each other or cooperate.

In ARR his arrogance led him to surrounding himself with yes-men who flattered and manipulated him while they plotted the bloody banquent, and HW has his dealing with self-pity for that incident. But it's not like he was supposed to learn that using diplomacy and rhetoric was a bad thing, so of course he goes back to trying it in ShB and EW. He's remained confident and steadfast in his values, but I don't really see him as arrogant anymore.

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His diplomatic and strategic decisions directly or indirectly lead to people being hurt or killed in almost every single expansion. The concept of "no plan survives contact with the enemy" never seems to get through to him. He's so absolutely certain that his choices and plans are the best but we constantly see them backfire over and over. He makes the same mistakes over and over because he is still just a naive and idealistic child trying desperately to be his grandfather. In ARR it's the Crystal Braves, who nearly capture and eradicate the scions, almost topple the Ul'Dahn Monarchy, and maim Raubahn for life. Heavensward... I don't really remember much of anything that Alphinaud does, but I feel like I remember liking him a bit more during this time period because he actually seemed to be learning (mostly thanks to Estinien as a role model.) Stormblood, we're back to horrible decisions in his effort to be the negotiator. His concession to allow Asahi access to Yotsuyu (which virtually everyone else agrees is a bad idea) essentially leads to the returning of her memories and relapse, which in turn leads to yet another primal appearing and potentially another Doma-wide conflict with Garlemald.

In Shadowbringers we see his ridiculous grand plan to get into Eulmore by convincing them his can turn produce into pearls by trading with the relatively hostile Ondo, expecting to never again have to do this more than once. In the end he decides to let Kai-Shirr use this plan to get into Eulmore which eventually backfires, getting the poor kid wounded and nearly killed. Alphinaud then immediately breaks character and rushes to Kai's aid in front of Vaughtry, the sin eaters, Eulmore's guards, and its people, assuming that we would not be attacked and all killed on the spot. He then has the audacity to insult / disrespect Vaughtry to his face before we have any real information or recourse of fighting back. In Endwalker he and his sister insist we take a detachment of people and limited supplies and go to Garlemald to provide humanitarian aid. He also makes it a point to say we aren't allowed to kill ANYONE, even the tempered Garlean soldiers who odds are would fight us to the death even if they weren't tempered. he also expects the people to welcome their Eorzean saviors with open arms because we bring food and medicine and acts so shocked when he is refused. These choices lead to a number of civilian deaths as a result as some would rather die than take questionable aid from invaders of their homeland, and he just apparently never accounted for this.

Endwalker Spoilers: It gets more infuriating when you find the five surviving civilians early in Garlemald, who are clearly afraid of us and distrust us. One or two of them make it very clear how indoctrinated they really are (not tempered) and we (the WoL) become aware that there may actually be more people in the building, though the bad writing requires us to be stupid and blow it off as some animal randomly sneaking into the building while everyone was standing there. The WoL then gets sent off to trade for some ceruleum for the heaters, Alphinaud and Alisaie being left behind to help tend to the civilian's injuries, feed them, and protect them from any potential harm. Upon reaching the tappers. Alisaie randomly shows up to talk about how good she is at carrying barrels, and that she decide to just come and help you. As a result of this, Alphinaud is jumped and injured by the three male civilians (who we could already tell might be trouble) and while defending himself, he seriously wounds a couple of them. The two girls flee on foot and get killed. The three men are then put to sleep and locked in an unheated building never to be mentioned again by the story.

These are just a few of Alphinaud's major screw ups. Yes he is a diplomat and a strategist, but he is a piss poor one. This child has no business being in any position of authority. He makes the same exact mistakes because of the same exact naivete and hubris in almost every single arc. The fact that he acknowledges his problems and says he'll do better is not character growth if he never actually does it. He never really seems to improve.

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Originally Posted by Jagick

In Stormblood we see his ridiculous grand plan to get into Eulmore by convincing them his can turn produce into pearls by trading with the relatively hostile Ondo, expecting to never again have to do this more than once. In the end he decides to let Kai-Shirr use this plan to get into Eulmore which eventually backfires, getting the poor kid wounded and nearly killed. Alphinaud then immediately breaks character and rushes to Kai's aid in front of Vaughtry, the sin eaters, Eulmore's guards, and its people, assuming that we would not be attacked and all killed on the spot. He then has the audacity to insult / disrespect Vaughtry to his face before we have any real information or recourse of fighting back.

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Can't say I agree with this analysis, Alphinaud's goal was to get into Eulmore to learn what he can about it, and see what aid they can offer regarding the sin eater threat. Both of his plans (his painting, and the Ondo trade deal) succesfully got someone into the city. And he had no way of knowing that the city was run by a sadist who likes to throw people off the balcony.

He establishes a good relationship with the Chais and Kai-Shirr, who end up being influential people in thier own right. His decision to confront Varuthy's cruelty and sadism directly is also a quick thinking political move - it's clear that this man won't be reasoned with, and he rules through fear and bullying; a powerful thing you can do in a situation like that is directly confront them. That's why the scene kept cutting back to the citizens of Eulmore as they watched, they had likely been afraid of Varuthy and his power for so long that seeing someone stand up to him and get away with it would be shocking.

So really, Alphinaud succesfully infiltrated the city, learned about the state of its leadership and the nature of the society, made inroads with the Chais, and stood up to a despot in front of his citizens and got away with it. I'd call that pretty successful.

As for the other stuff, Alphinaud tends to assume good faith of other people, and is often shocked or thrown when someone turns out to be acting in bad faith, or just trying to mislead him. Like with Asahi or Illbred. I'm just not sure that I would consider "has faith in people and thinks everyone else is acting in good faith" is necessarily a character flaw that needs to be overcome. You have other characters to provide the more cynical perspective about other people's intentions - like his sister.