Warrior PvP Feedback - experienced warriors

The problem is that orogeny is that the health cost incentivizes the warrior to use it when surrounded by as many enemies as possible. BUT HE CAN'T SURVIVE often times.

Which makes the action only really useful and useable when under the effects of limit break (inner release), under which only then is he durable enough to soak up the health cost of Orogeny with his boost to health and healing.

That's really not a good design in my opinion, as the warrior loses out on a chunk of dps by not being able to use Orogeny freely and more often.

If the developers aren't going to increase Warrior survivability they should decrease or eliminate the health cost on Orogeny.

Or at the very least, make it interact with and benefit from Blood Whetting.

Warrior isn't balanced, it's my honest opinion that at high level, the other tanks, and GNB in particular, outshine warriors.

And it's not a matter of making other jobs weaker either, the warrior design is kind of flawed fundamentally without more survivability.

It's not just about their defensive, i.e. blood whetting, but also the immense health cost on the actions like Orogeny.

Also, giving warriors a little bit more survivability doesn't negate their inherent weakness to CC, as healing by dealing damage is still a large part of their defensive kit. They would till be weaker defensively than other tanks. Which is fine. But it really, really isn't fun to be blown up so quick right now. 10% health shield from blood whetting does almost nothing and it doesn't synergize with the warrior role and kit - which incentives aoe damage and being in the thick of as many enemies as possible, because health shields don't scale in effectiveness with amount of incoming damage. And 10% on 20 second cooldown is pretty poor.

They should have never nerfed it.

Lastly, if they are going by win rates to balance, I hope they are able to break down win rates by rank as well, and if so, they should make balance decisions based on high rank (at least Diamond and up) win rates and give less consideration to lower rank win rates.

There have been some competitive games which have made balance adjustment mistakes by focusing on overall win rates and not on win rates at the higher levels of play. I hope that isn't happening here.

Orogeny costs your current HP, not your max HP. The less HP you have, the less it costs. It deals damage based on current HP, up to 8k at max. Casting it at max HP deals 12.6k damage to the WAR. You should generally not use it without Bloodwhetting active; BW gives you a shield equal to 10% of your *total* HP and heals you for 75% of damage dealt. A max Orogeny would heal you for 6k per target hit, and BW would give you a shield of 6300 value. Counting the shield, you need to hit *one* target for Orogeny to be effectively neutral-cost, at max HP. Hitting two targets is neutral-cost if we discount the shield, or it *heals you for more than it cost* if we add in the shield. Hitting three or more *heals you for more than it cost you to cast no matter what HP threshold you cast it at.* It's fine.

Nyne, you have to admit that you just haven't learned how to play WAR very well. Like a lot of people, you got used to the old overpowered unga bunga WAR. You need to either learn how to play the new WAR that requires actual thought and planning, or you should switch to a class that can fulfill that unga bunga playstyle you like. PLD and GNB (in tank junction) are both very much unga bunga immortal tanks and would be a better choice than WAR is.

Role assignments and names are meaningless in PvP. PLD is literally the only tank that can "protect the party" worth a shit (and it's really just one specific party member), MNK is a DPS that is tankier than everyone but PLD and tank-GNB, SGE is a healer with almost no real healing or support skills and more DPS than SMN (meanwhile SMN has one of the strongest buffs in the game), and so on.

Role labels are meaningless now. If you're trying to go "that's blue, therefore it's a traditional *tank*!", you're going to be confused and disappointed. The new system would likely not have roles at all if it wouldn't be confusing and a bunch of pointless extra work to do so.

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Originally Posted by Gserpent

Orogeny costs your current HP, not your max HP. The less HP you have, the less it costs. It deals damage based on current HP, up to 8k at max. Casting it at max HP deals 12.6k damage to the WAR. You should generally not use it without Bloodwhetting active; BW gives you a shield equal to 10% of your *total* HP and heals you for 75% of damage dealt. A max Orogeny would heal you for 6k per target hit, and BW would give you a shield of 6300 value. Counting the shield, you need to hit *one* target for Orogeny to be effectively neutral-cost, at max HP. Hitting two targets is neutral-cost if we discount the shield, or it *heals you for more than it cost* if we add in the shield. Hitting three or more *heals you for more than it cost you to cast no matter what HP threshold you cast it at.* It's fine.

Nyne, you have to admit that you just haven't learned how to play WAR very well. Like a lot of people, you got used to the old overpowered unga bunga WAR. You need to either learn how to play the new WAR that requires actual thought and planning, or you should switch to a class that can fulfill that unga bunga playstyle you like. PLD and GNB (in tank junction) are both very much unga bunga immortal tanks and would be a better choice than WAR is.

Role assignments and names are meaningless in PvP. PLD is literally the only tank that can "protect the party" worth a shit (and it's really just one specific party member), MNK is a DPS that is tankier than everyone but PLD and tank-GNB, SGE is a healer with almost no real healing or support skills and more DPS than SMN (meanwhile SMN has one of the strongest buffs in the game), and so on.

Role labels are meaningless now. If you're trying to go "that's blue, therefore it's a traditional *tank*!", you're going to be confused and disappointed. The new system would likely not have roles at all if it wouldn't be confusing and a bunch of pointless extra work to do so.

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Everything you said is false...

Bro you're telling me how to play a warrior even though you're talking about orogeny healing me? You didn't even read my posts from the looks of it. It doesn't heal man, in fact, it was one of my suggestions to fix warrior. I've said it a million times. Orogeny and onslaught do not benefit from blood whetting whatsoever. You obviously never played warrior.

Cool, then it's another tooltip that's wrong. They meant weaponskill, not damage. Maybe that's an option for improving WAR, if you believe them to be weak.

But WAR isn't weak. It doesn't need buffs, it doesn't need changes. It is literally one of the most balanced classes in the game right now. How long are you going to continue being stubborn instead of just getting over the fact that WAR is not what you want it to be? Play PLD or DRK if you want a "tank." Stop demanding a balanced, well-designed class be changed to something else.

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Originally Posted by NyneSwordz

Everything you said is false...

Bro you're telling me how to play a warrior even though you're talking about orogeny healing me? You didn't even read my posts from the looks of it. It doesn't heal man, in fact, it was one of my suggestions to fix warrior. I've said it a million times. Orogeny and onslaught do not benefit from blood whetting whatsoever. You obviously never played warrior.

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Gserpent not knowing what he's talking about isn't anything new.

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Originally Posted by Gserpent

Cool, then it's another tooltip that's wrong. They meant weaponskill, not damage. Maybe that's an option for improving WAR, if you believe them to be weak.

But WAR isn't weak. It doesn't need buffs, it doesn't need changes. It is literally one of the most balanced classes in the game right now. How long are you going to continue being stubborn instead of just getting over the fact that WAR is not what you want it to be? Play PLD or DRK if you want a "tank." Stop demanding a balanced, well-designed class be changed to something else.

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I'm not asking for Wars to be on Par with Drk or Pld in terms of survivability, I'm just asking to not be the most easily killed melee job in pvp by a large margin. I'm saying Wars die near instantly when targeted.

I'm not even asking to be a tank. I'm just asking for a bit of parity in terms of survivability as other melee jobs.

And while we're on this point, you say jobs don't mean anything, and yet, they do don't they? Tanks still have the most health out of all jobs. And dps jobs still output the most dps (usually). The thing is, melee dps have even more survivability than Wars do. What is the point of a War if melee dps and outlive and out dps a War?

Blota and primal rend? I wish it mattered more. And it's not like melee dps don't have stuns... Right now, it feels as if DPS is king. And under this meta, it isn't fun being the easiest job to kill and CC.

You say War is the most balanced job, based on what? You never played the job obviously. I'm not saying that as a slight. I'm saying that to bring up the fact that in my experience of actually playin the job it really is a struggle right now to even survive long enough to press buttons.

Not sure why you think I'm being stubborn. I'm entitled to my own opinion based on my personal experience of a Job that I actually played.

Maybe if you played War some more then you'd understand.

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Originally Posted by NyneSwordz

I'm not asking for Wars to be on Par with Drk or Pld in terms of survivability, I'm just asking to not be the most easily killed melee job in pvp by a large margin. I'm saying Wars die near instantly when targeted.

I'm not even asking to be a tank. I'm just asking for a bit of parity in terms of survivability as other melee jobs.

And while we're on this point, you say jobs don't mean anything, and yet, they do don't they? Tanks still have the most health out of all jobs. And dps jobs still output the most dps (usually). The thing is, melee dps have even more survivability than Wars do. What is the point of a War if melee dps and outlive and out dps a War?

Blota and primal rend? I wish it mattered more. And it's not like melee dps don't have stuns... Right now, it feels as if DPS is king. And under this meta, it isn't fun being the easiest job to kill and CC.

You say War is the most balanced job, based on what? You never played the job obviously. I'm not saying that as a slight. I'm saying that to bring up the fact that in my experience of actually playin the job it really is a struggle right now to even survive long enough to press buttons.

Not sure why you think I'm being stubborn. I'm entitled to my own opinion based on my personal experience of a Job that I actually played.

Maybe if you played War some more then you'd understand.

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War is fine and is there to control the flow of battle. Your team mates have to pick up on what you're doing though and thats the massive disadvantage of PvP. No communication.

Blota can be used offensively or defensively. Offivenly you can have someone die fast as you can pull them to your team and force them to use gaurd, or purify or they die. Defensively as you can pull one of those DPS away from battle. Wait for them to take the bait and use a gap closer or purify to go back in towards their friends and follow in with a primal rend to stun them all.

It also helps that war has a 10% damage increase on targets. But again, none of this is going to be useful if your team isn't picking up on these cues.

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Originally Posted by NyneSwordz

And while we're on this point, you say jobs don't mean anything, and yet, they do don't they? Tanks still have the most health out of all jobs. And dps jobs still output the most dps (usually). The thing is, melee dps have even more survivability than Wars do. What is the point of a War if melee dps and outlive and out dps a War?

Blota and primal rend? I wish it mattered more. And it's not like melee dps don't have stuns... Right now, it feels as if DPS is king. And under this meta, it isn't fun being the easiest job to kill and CC.

You say War is the most balanced job, based on what? You never played the job obviously. I'm not saying that as a slight. I'm saying that to bring up the fact that in my experience of actually playin the job it really is a struggle right now to even survive long enough to press buttons.

Not sure why you think I'm being stubborn. I'm entitled to my own opinion based on my personal experience of a Job that I actually played.

Maybe if you played War some more then you'd understand.

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Blota and Primal Rend are incredibly strong abilities with short cooldowns. Used correctly, they are virtually guaranteed to result in kills or force out cooldowns. If you are using them correctly, maybe your team isn't picking up on those openings and capitalizing on them. That isn't WAR being weak or needing help, that's just garbage teammates being garbage teammates... it's something you just have to get used to in PvP. Ever watched PLD guard someone and then that person runs away and dies? Yeah. You can't control for idiots getting on your team, and if you have idiots on your team and you're trying to draw conclusions based on that... well, it's going to result in some issues.

WAR is very fragile if it tries to just Leeroy in. It can still be fragile even if you go in and they swap to you. Even PLD can get blown up really fast if they're focused and don't use Guard or other defensive tools. If you're finding this happens to you a lot, you probably need to be more careful with initiating and with engaging, or time your Guard usage more efficiently. Or you're going in and your teammates are ignoring you, which... well, again, it's something you just have to grin and bear with in a system with no proper matchmaking.

But WAR is fine, dude. Maybe they could add lifesteal to Onslaught and Orogeny. I don't think doing so would make WAR too strong. But I don't think it really needs any changes at all, frankly. Any kind of melee class without actual damage reduction is going to be twiggy if you're not careful with how you initiate (see also: MNK, who is very tanky when played well but feeds hard if they just run right in without a care in the world.)

Feels like you're playing WAR wrong