Dear SquareEnix/Natsuko Ishikawa - About Zenos in Endwalker *MAJOR MSQ SPOILERS*!

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Originally Posted by Senn

That might be some interesting character development there. Slowly finding other things to care about as he tags along with you on occasion.

I haven't done the reaper quest, so I don't know the voidsent lore well enough yet, but we didn't actually kill Zenos's voidsent right? Apparently they need to be dealt with in a specific way or they won't die. So not only did Yoshi P tell us to pay attention to his avatar/voidsent thing... but I'm not even sure if it's dead. Maybe it could take over his body or prevent him from dying. And like I said before, there's dynamis - if we're thinking about scenarios in which Zenos could survive, these are some ideas you can play around with.

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REAPER SPOILERS

As someone who leveled Reaper and did its story, the voidsent itself is never really gone into except in the case of the big bad. In his case, he was threatened by Solus zos Galvus' existence to the point he tried to pull a hit on the guy, found out Solus was a little more than he bargained for, and in a panic he gave in completely to his Avatar. Said Avatar then through the course of the Reaper story wants your (the Warrior of Light's) soul.

The WoL's own Avatar is never explained either, probably to allow the player character to RP with it a bit. Who is it? What does it want? Never said, never explained, but it will do what you want him to.

Sadly though, nothing in the Reaper storyline that I saw would adequately explain Zenos or his Avatar. Unless I missed something big.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

It’s my opinion that the writers doing another fakeout with the Scion’s sacrifices in Ultima Thule actually lessened the emotional impact of that entire area for me. Because I knew they weren’t actually dead, I lost interest in all of their monologues with the lost civilizations and their “noble sacrifices”. I’m tired of death fakeouts and ready for some people to actually stay dead for once.

As I said above, I had more appreciation for Zenos when he died at the end of 4.0. But all of that disappeared when he came back—and it really didn’t help that they did absolutely nothing with his character. But I don’t think he’s redeemable. Even Yotsuyu wasn’t redeemable—yet the storyline they gave her in 4.2 and 4.3 was really good. And she was a better written character for it. They didn’t try to force this redemption arc on her because she didn’t need one. She didn’t deserve one. And neither does Zenos. Bringing him back ruins the ending of Endwalker—and do we really want to do that AGAIN?

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I had the same feeling too. The grief of loss just vanished and left me quite disappointed. I was hoping to see deaths, but no one died. Again Scions are protected by the plot armor and magic of friendship.

I'm not trying to bring Zenos back. Even tho I can see how they could do it. He did have a great deal of off screen character development, but a lot of questions left unanswered and I hope to learn more about his character.
My initial curiosity was as why Scions are allowed to be brought back and not Zenos. He was reaper in the end and afaik from the reaper job quest, the voidsent doesn't truly disappear. So we might see a bit more of stuff related to that.

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Originally Posted by Elysidelphi

I didn't know about all those possible implications related to Reaper and Zenos being a Reaper as I haven't levelled Reaper yet. Thank you for bringing them up. You've certainly given me more hope now. And Zenos's survival being tied to his Reaper job and Avatar would be really interesting. And Dynamis playing a role in this as well, yes, that's also interesting.

I keep thinking about his death scene, his last words. His last question to us "Did you find...fulfillment?" and if you pay close attention to the way he says "fulfillment", in my opinion, his voice breaks when he says that word, it doesn't sound like a person who found fulfillment themselves. And he follows that question of his with "I..." and then stops/dies. That always breaks me. He doesn't sound like a happy person who is now dying. There is no smile on his face, no joy in his voice. He even said "gone too soon". He doesn't sound like someone who wants to die, who is happy with what he's achieved. I've gone over that scene literally dozens of time by now, analysing the hell out his words, his facial expressions, the tone of his voice. None of that, his words or tone of voice, sounds happy/at peace/ready to move on. He just sounds filled with regrets, maybe even pain and sorrow.

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I play the game in Japanese. I’ll watch the scene again at some point, but my first impression listening to the Japanese VA was not this.

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Originally Posted by Miracle_Diva

I had the same feeling too. The grief of loss just vanished and left me quite disappointed. I was hoping to see deaths, but no one died. Again Scions are protected by the plot armor and magic of friendship.

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I stand by the assertion that Thancred dying after his fight with Ran’jit in ShB would have been perfect. It had a lot of emotional weight and impact to it. But no…he just had a few bumps and booboos that they patched up and he was good to go! That irked me more than I cared to admit, and ShB is by far the best written expansion imo.

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I'm not trying to bring Zenos back. Even tho I can see how they could do it. He did have a great deal of off screen character development, but a lot of questions left unanswered and I hope to learn more about his character.

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I don’t think the off-screen development helped him. If you have to develop a main antagonist off-screen in side story content, then it’s poor development and poor writing.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I don’t think the off-screen development helped him. If you have to develop a main antagonist off-screen in side story content, then it’s poor development and poor writing.

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That is why I'm in believe we're not done with the guy. Or what's left of him.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I play the game in Japanese. I’ll watch the scene again at some point, but my first impression listening to the Japanese VA was not this.

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I play the game in Japanese as well. And when Zenos says "Did you find...fulfillment?" I always get the distinct impression that his voice breaks/goes smaller, in both the Japanese and English versions. The first time I experienced it in my own playthrough, in Japanese, and that was my first impression, that his voice broke a little when he said "fulfillment". Then I watched many people play through the story, most in English, one or two in Japanese, and I got the same impression each time, even in English. It distinctly reminded me of Elidibus's death scene, when he says "The rains have ceased and we have been graced with another beautiful day. But you are not here to see it." and his voice breaks in the middle of the sentence "But you are not here to see it." That's what it reminded me of very specifically.

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Originally Posted by Elysidelphi

I play the game in Japanese as well. And when Zenos says "Did you find...fulfillment?" I always get the distinct impression that his voice breaks/goes smaller, in both the Japanese and English versions. The first time I experienced it in my own playthrough, in Japanese, and that was my first impression, that his voice broke a little when he said "fulfillment". Then I watched many people play through the story, most in English, one or two in Japanese, and I got the same impression each time, even in English. It distinctly reminded me of Elidibus's death scene, when he says "The rains have ceased and we have been graced with another beautiful day. But you are not here to see it." and his voice breaks in the middle of the sentence "But you are not here to see it." That's what it reminded me of very specifically.

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I disagree. I didn’t get the same impression at all.

With Elidibus, the last line he whispers (shikatanai ja nai ka) loosely translates into “it cannot be helped, can it?”—and the phrase itself is used to imply regret here. That’s the emotional impact of that statement, and why the Japanese VA’s voice fluctuates the way it does. Now I would have to really listen and loosely translate Zenos’s words from Japanese into English, but I never got the same impression from him that I did from Elidibus. The two characters aren’t even comparable.

Yeah, it's subjective in the end.

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Originally Posted by Elysidelphi

I didn't know about all those possible implications related to Reaper and Zenos being a Reaper as I haven't levelled Reaper yet. Thank you for bringing them up. You've certainly given me more hope now. And Zenos's survival being tied to his Reaper job and Avatar would be really interesting. And Dynamis playing a role in this as well, yes, that's also interesting.

I keep thinking about his death scene, his last words. His last question to us "Did you find...fulfillment?" and if you pay close attention to the way he says "fulfillment", in my opinion, his voice breaks when he says that word, it doesn't sound like a person who found fulfillment themselves. And he follows that question of his with "I..." and then stops/dies. That always breaks me. He doesn't sound like a happy person who is now dying. There is no smile on his face, no joy in his voice. He even said "gone too soon". He doesn't sound like someone who wants to die, who is happy with what he's achieved. I've gone over that scene literally dozens of time by now, analysing the hell out his words, his facial expressions, the tone of his voice. None of that, his words or tone of voice, sounds happy/at peace/ready to move on. He just sounds filled with regrets, maybe even pain and sorrow.

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I've always found Zenos interesting because he's a puzzle, character-wise. I like filling in backstory. But I don't believe there's anything particularly complex or compelling about it. Yes, he's a little boy, extremely intelligent, raised without much love or affection, who becomes a killing machine. It's very sad, and I think we're expected to pity the little boy, but that's it. The time we could save him is long past.

He isn't sad at the end. He's just Zenos. There's no emotion in his voice. The only time he ever shows emotion is when he's actually fighting us or begging us to fight him.

I hope he doesn't come back; like some others have said I don't mind hearing about his story in more detail, but I don't think bringing him back will accomplish anything useful. I'm not entirely sure why they brought him back the first time since I don't think he added anything to the story except a side-serving of additional ennui to all the despair.

Edit: actually I think his state of mind, especially at the end, provided a counterpoint to the main message - or one of the main messages - of the story. So I take back what I said about his relevance. Everyone working with the WoL, especially the WoL herself, picks themself up and keeps going regardless. She doesn't let her mental state - which I'm absolutely positive has been rock bottom more than once - turn her from the path she's chosen. Zenos is just a mass of self pity. Yes, he had a shitty childhood but so did Fordola, and she managed to turn things around. Zenos never tried. So he is an abject lesson in the dangers of feeling sorry for yourself instead of getting up and trying to make it better

Also totally agree with Hyomin that the emotional impact of the final zone was lessened by the many fake sacrifices. I still found that zone difficult and exhausting emotionally but not because the Scions were fake dead, and I wish they hadn't done that. I would rather they actually died, and we kept going alone, regardless.

But I am convinced that Zenos did not die happily/did not want to die. He doesn't sound at all like a fulfilled, happy person, ready to move on. Regardless of whether it's in Japanese, English, even French or German. He doesn't sound happy to die. And that question in itself "Did you find...fulfillment?" is not the kind of question that a dying person who is fulfilled would ask. If a person is dying and they feel fulfilled, they would not generally tend to ask someone else if they found fulfillment. The fact that Zenos thinks to ask that in his last moments, to me at least, shows uncertainty, maybe he realises he didn't find fulfillment, maybe in his last moments he's desperately trying to find a reason to feel fulfilled. But he doesn't sound happy, at peace, or fulfilled. Out of all the things Zenos could have said or asked, it was the question about fulfillment (plus the tone of his voice). I think there are subtle clues here about his state of mind, that he wasn't happy or fulfilled and not even at peace with dying, not even truly resigned. For example, I compare his death scene to that of Fandaniel/Zodiark. Fandaniel definitely sounded resigned when he died, he sounded as if his duty/purpose was accomplished. He didn't sound happy either, but he did sound resigned/at peace. When Elidibus died (again) as he was sending the WoL to Elpis, he also sounded resigned/at peace; he didn't sound happy either, but he didn't sound like Zenos at all. In my opinion, comparing the death scenes of Fandaniel, Elidibus and Zenos, I can see the differences and similarities and to me it sounds like out of all of them, Zenos was the one who was not at peace with dying.

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Originally Posted by Elysidelphi

Yeah, it's subjective in the end.

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I added more to my post prior to this, but here’s a repeat of why I don’t equate the two:

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I disagree. I didn’t get the same impression at all.

With Elidibus, the last line he whispers (shikatanai ja nai ka) loosely translates into “it cannot be helped, can it?”—and the phrase itself is used to imply regret here. That’s the emotional impact of that statement, and why the Japanese VA’s voice fluctuates the way it does. Now I would have to really listen and loosely translate Zenos’s words from Japanese into English, but I never got the same impression from him that I did from Elidibus. The two characters aren’t even comparable.

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