"Everyone's so open and friendly" is a lie

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Originally Posted by Floortank

I've never seen anyone, on this forum or off it, who has suggested that there are simply no bad apples in XIV. The community is far less toxic because the toxicity in other games hits you in waves like a punch in the face the moment you log in.

I strongly disagree that all MMO communities are the same. I've been playing them since 1997, and no, they're not.

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Oh I've seen plenty suggest there are no bad apples, or that the bad apples "aren't part of the community" - as if somehow they're not playing XIV the same as everyone else, involving themselves in the game's community by doing so.

And I've also been playing MMOs a long time. Most communities are actually overwhelmingly chill and nice, but once you start getting into particular segments of the community as a whole, you start finding the rancid elements.

This is just as true of WoW - the one time I gave the free trial a try, I didn't see a whole lot of open hostility and idiocy in chat. Does that mean it wasn't there? Nope. Just means it isn't the only thing people will come across, despite what basically everyone who has and hasn't played WoW will try to claim otherwise.

As to open hostility vs passive aggression, I'm just gonna leave Theodric's quote here - he sums it up best:

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Originally Posted by Theodric

In my experience, passive aggressive behaviour is far more damaging than outright aggression. The latter is much easier to prove as an issue if it persists, whereas the former generally results in emotional manipulation, gaslighting, moving goalposts, goading and the weaponisation of the terms of service.

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Considering the sheer insanity I've personally seen in the RP communities on Balmung and Mateus alike, I'd gladly take some open (and reportable!) hostility over this high school drama bull people take part in.

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Originally Posted by BaconBits

Why yes, I am openly hostile and aggressive to people I dislike, why do you ask?

https://wompampsupport.azureedge.net...2Fgigachad.jpg

Passive aggressive people are weaklings :Y

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This, but unironically.

Of course not everyone is going to be "open and friendly" in any community. That's the internet and the human race in general. SE has to force people to be nice, more or less. That's not an FF XIV community thing only. That's a dealing with human behavior thing.

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Originally Posted by Razdazim

After having been here since June or July I can say this is the biggest lie that this game's player base tells and I am sick of it. This entire problem is promoted by the heavy handedness of this games harassment policies, making it impossible to have fights and arguments in a attempt to resolve problems that instead encourages passive aggressive behavior that is just as detrimental if not worse. At least when there is fights and arguments people know where another stands, what the problem is instead of attempting to ghost and being child like. If someone has done something wrong, no matter how petty one may perceive it no one is allowed to be critical.

I am absolutely disgusted, and I hate this concept of people wanting to talk, be social and make friends one minute but without warning having done nothing people suddenly refuse to speak. It's flat out hypocritical and disingenuous.

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I am disgusted that you want an open forum to disrespect other people. The game is fine how it is.

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Originally Posted by Kaoru_Nagisa

Really, the only difference here compared to WoW or LoL or whatever other game people might bring up, is the brand of toxicity - one that isn't quite as common to see in some MMOs. This incredibly disturbing fake-positivity, passive aggressive, high school drama gossip levels of toxicity that breeds all sorts of people who can't seem to comprehend how to actually discuss issues or address problems others bring up, without resorting to throwing the epitome of a childish tantrum at best, and attempting to gaslight people at worst.

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I don't think LOL community is a great one to set as an example here. Because of the competative nature of the game, it has a whole new level of toxicity than most games. That game is so toxic that even Buddah will loose his composure within hours.

Also I don't think it's the brand of toxicity that matters. I think what really makes the difference is the % of people that partake in certain toxic behaviors. The drama/gossip/etc is apparant in any game that has a social aspect in-game. It's just more apparant in games that have devs that actually enforce their ToA.
Honesrly, after playing RPG for 10+years, I've come to realize toxicity is never going away. It's going to exist one way or another. The only way to stop it would be to have FBI watch over each individual player and publicly execute them whenever they exhibit slightest bit of toxicity. Even then, I bet people will still find ways to be toxic.

You seem to be under the impression having no moderation for player behavior would lead to some sort of utopian world where disagreements are handled through mature discussions and structured debates. In reality, it just leads to enlightening exchanges such as: "You suck, uninstall the game" and "kys". I've seen it unfold the exact same way in so many MMOs and one of the reason I came here is to escape that very behavior. That's not to say there's no toxicity here, that would be foolishly optimistic, but it does make for a far less hostile environment.

If you prefer a less restrictive environment where you're free to unload your frustrations on your fellow player after a bad day, there's a plethora of other MMOs for you to enjoy out there that cater to your needs.

Being passive aggressive is the only way to be negative without needing to fear getting reported. That's why this game thrives on passive aggressive behavior.

I would prefer we could use more aggressive way of talking, at least that promotes to solve problems between two parties.
Now it's just if someone says a bad thing the other one doesnt react but just reports

I completely disagree. I have also been here since July, and you and I have been playing in the same sandbox. I've had no impetus to have an argument.

You seem angry, and you and I are the only variables in such a vastly different experience.

Look within for the answer.

I had a "contest" going on the WoW forums for the better part of ten years, whereby if someone would group up with me and personally show me a fair amount of uninvited toxicity, I would then buy them anywhere from 1-3 months of game time, depending on how much random toxicity they could show me, and how intense the toxicity was.

Don't believe me? Google 'Breakbeat site:us.forums.blizzard.com toxic group "game time"' and you can see for yourself.

I never had a single taker, not one, over ten years. Why? Logically, because people jump on forums in the heat of the moment and misrepresent the amount of negativity they're receiving, and inflate their tales about how bad things are. Folks are negative themselves and then try to invent stories about how bad others are.

This is one of the better ones, TBH. "Deafening silence is passive-agressive." Uh-huh. Perhaps inside your head, everything is passive-agressive? Nevermind that perhaps folks just weren't talking? Perhaps they felt it better not to light fires near a powder keg? Silence is silence. If you're disturbed in your head, I guess everything will come off as passive-agressive.

I'm leaning strongly towards opening up my contest to folks here on the FFXIV forums. I want so much to group up with someone pushing this 'toxicity agenda', run things with them, join random groups, see no toxicity, and report all about it back here.

Ain't no one winning game time from me, because there simply isn't that kind of pervasive, random toxicity here. Still on the edge of opening up the offer, though.

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Originally Posted by Minnel

I don't think LOL community is a great one to set as an example here. Because of the competative nature of the game, it has a whole new level of toxicity than most games. That game is so toxic that even Buddah will loose his composure within hours.

Also I don't think it's the brand of toxicity that matters. I think what really makes the difference is the % of people that partake in certain toxic behaviors. The drama/gossip/etc is apparant in any game that has a social aspect in-game. It's just more apparant in games that have devs that actually enforce their ToA.
Honesrly, after playing RPG for 10+years, I've come to realize toxicity is never going away. It's going to exist one way or another. The only way to stop it would be to have FBI watch over each individual player and publicly execute them whenever they exhibit slightest bit of toxicity. Even then, I bet people will still find ways to be toxic.

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I never claimed LoL wasn't a toxic cesspool, just that it's far more openly hostile compared to XIV's preferred method of passive aggression and manipulation/gaslighting.

You are correct that toxicity is everywhere and won't go away - which is the exact point I was making. XIV isn't somehow free of it, we just have a different form compared to some other games.

The majority of players are chill, in this or any MMO; but every MMO has its share of negative elements as well. I think the major point of the OP was just that people seem to try to bury this fact with FFXIV in particular, when all it does is set a poor precedent for someone's overall experience. Thinking the community is nothing but positive and wholesome will make running into the less savory elements that much more damaging, in the long run.

The only difference here is you can't as easily report toxic people as elsewhere, because - be it the ToS or other reasons - this game breeds an environment where passive aggression slides under the radar and causes far more damage in the long term than some idiot screaming slurs in shout chat would. The latter will (usually) get swiftly reported and dealt with, even if they make alts to continue doing the same thing over and over again. Someone being passive aggressive and resorting to emotional manipulation or mental abuse will not so easily be rid of, as they know how to skirt under the ToS to avoid a report.

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Originally Posted by Floortank

The community is far less toxic because the toxicity in other games hits you in waves like a punch in the face the moment you log in.
I strongly disagree that all MMO communities are the same. I've been playing them since 1997, and no, they're not.

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Snipped a few pieces of your quote. I wanted to touch on the different levels of toxicity. A lot of people think Toxicity is limited to the art of berating and slamming people.

So lets talk about the gate keeping when people who are late to the game want to purchase or wish for a redo of certain seasonal or crossover events, the people who were putting up massive childish tantrums when the races they wanted lacked an XX or XY chromosome or how crossovers of any kind have no place in this game and when most people who don't get their own way threaten to unsub and never come back to this game ever again.

In game harassment is also an issue. I could write a book on the last 10 years of playing this game and the encounters I've had both in game and out. At least for Azeroth you can see the issues as clear as day (more so now) - FFXIV attracts a special kind of goblins.

I'd go as far to say that it's toxic with a different coat of paint. Toxicity isn't just limited to one situation. I'm glad we have GMs who are active and take action against abuse and harassers.