Stop the WoWificaton (ui mods)

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Originally Posted by Xaruko_Nexume

But the more people who use them, the more people expect others to use them and it becomes a gatekeeping issue to progress in high end content. I know it for a fact, I've seen it in other games and it's already becoming a problem that will only grow. It's time to put the foot down.

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Out of curiosity. A lot of Statics and FC's require members to use Discord Chat for high end content. Do you personally want SE to ban people using Discord as well since its a "3rd party tool" that can cause Gatekeeping?

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Originally Posted by Xaruko_Nexume

I genuinely do not understand what you are saying. So I could report someone for requiring me to have certain addons to join their static?

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Right now it seems you're creating a hypothetical... BUT if something like that were to happen... IF someone is daft enough to send you a message that explicitly states that you are being excluded because of this reason, THEN yes you should go ahead and report. Again, bear in mind that SE rarely reveals actions taken against individual players based on reporting (I think they have addressed the streamer they suspended since it was so public already), so you're never going to get instantaneous retributive "justice" from reporting.

However, it's still a good idea to report so that on their end... IF they start seeing an increased volume of similar reports, THEN it might force their hand to do something about it.

I'm pro add-ons so...I can't really oppose the idea of having them. But anyone who uses them currently is rolling the dice, and it may come back to haunt them some day. Still, I'd like to have them officially.

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Originally Posted by Rowde

Right now it seems you're creating a hypothetical... BUT if something like that were to happen... IF someone is daft enough to send you a message that explicitly states that you are being excluded because of this reason, THEN yes you should go ahead and report. Again, bear in mind that SE rarely reveals actions taken against individual players based on reporting (I think they have addressed the streamer they suspended since it was so public already), so you're never going to get instantaneous retributive "justice" from reporting.

However, it's still a good idea to report so that on their end... IF they start seeing an increased volume of similar reports, THEN it might force their hand to do something about it.

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I am noticing a trend here. The fact that this could happen seems improbable to some of you it seems? Players requirement of other players to have MANY third party things is a norm and has been for year in many other MMORPG's. It is standard, daily procedure. I am lobby to stop this slippery slope at the top. It's one of the things I am very passionate about, that I believe can destroy and MMO community. That and mythic+ timed dungeons.

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Originally Posted by PMSJordan

Out of curiosity. A lot of Statics and FC's require members to use Discord Chat for high end content. Do you personally want SE to ban people using Discord as well since its a "3rd party tool" that can cause Gatekeeping?

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As I understand the terms of service, third party tools are not in violation. Third party tools that directly interact with and manipulate the games code, are, and are easily detectable and bannable if they would just act.

That said, ironically one of the final influences to purchase a PS5 this month was the announcement that native discord support is coming to PS5 by the end of the year as Sony and Discord have reached a massive deal.

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Originally Posted by PMSJordan

Out of curiosity. A lot of Statics and FC's require members to use Discord Chat for high end content. Do you personally want SE to ban people using Discord as well since its a "3rd party tool" that can cause Gatekeeping?

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There's also the option of SE looking at 3rd party tools, examining why ppl are using it, and then seeing if there's a way they can just integrate it into the game.

I strongly suspect that a lot of the QoL adjustments we've gotten in game, especially for crafters and gatherers, were integrated because of the existence of some of the 3rd party tools.

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Originally Posted by Xaruko_Nexume

I won't name them or the link them but there is now a super popular ui modification, only available on PC that is making the game look like a popular WoW ui. I think this is a step too far (arguably damage meters already were) and since they are technically a violation of the games terms of service, its time to put the foot down and enforce the already existing rules.

It puts players who actually play by rules and/or on console at a significant disadvantage on higher end content.

Either change the TOS to allow these addons or actually enforce the fact that they are against the rules (preferred option.)

Streamers and youtubers openly defy the rules of the game using these modifications and nothing is done about it. If we are going to ignore these things, please let me know which rules are breakable and which are not.

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Personally, I don't mind anyone using any sfw mod as long as they never harassed anyone with it.
If someone is playing the game peacefully with a mod that makes it look like WoW but never actually harassed anyone out there then there is literally 0 reasons to punish said player. After all, the game is for fun and if the person is having fun without hurting others then where is the problem?

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Originally Posted by Kranel_San

Personally, I don't mind anyone using any sfw mod as long as they never harassed anyone with it.
If someone is playing the game peacefully with a mod that makes it look like WoW but never actually harassed anyone out there then there is literally 0 reasons to punish said player. After all, the game is for fun and if the person is having fun without hurting others then where is the problem?

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If the person never harasses anyone then nobody knows they're using said mod, ergo they have no problem.

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Originally Posted by Xaruko_Nexume

I am noticing a trend here. The fact that this could happen seems improbable to some of you it seems? Players requirement of other players to have MANY third party things is a norm and has been for year in many other MMORPG's. It is standard, daily procedure. I am lobby to stop this slippery slope at the top. It's one of the things I am very passionate about, that I believe can destroy and MMO community. That and mythic+ timed dungeons.




As I understand the terms of service, third party tools are not in violation. Third party tools that directly interact with and manipulate the games code, are, and are easily detectable and bannable if they would just act.

That said, ironically one of the final influences to purchase a PS5 this month was the announcement that native discord support is coming to PS5 by the end of the year as Sony and Discord have reached a massive deal.

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While you are correct that it may be common place, it is much, much harder for it to be done in game through any chat channels. The game is generally well moderated, especially if there's in-game harassment going on. You're more likely to encounter this kind of behavior through game-adjacent channels, such as Discord servers.

As far as third-party tools, Yoshi-P has used Excel spreadsheets as an example for what could count as a third-party tool, and we all know Excel doesn't modify the game in any way. Discord has been brought up, and that counts, because it's a tool made by a third-party that could be giving an advantage to players without any means to chat. However, it's mostly un-enforceable as stated, and is mostly used there for legal reasons that protect themselves from blowback. If they called out a specific app or mod in the terms of service, then people would use something else. In any case, many of the bans SE does is for harassment, not for third-party tools.

Im curious if anyone has ever heard of a situation where someone was declined from joining a group due to being on console and/or playing with controller. That is the crux of my worry here.

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Originally Posted by Xaruko_Nexume

It isn't an option for those on console and I expect console players to only go up in numbers as PS5's become easier to get and the inevitable xbox version next year. Even taking the console argument away, SE has historically done a great job making addons not feel necessary to make good progress. But the more people who use them, the more people expect others to use them and it becomes a gatekeeping issue to progress in high end content. I know it for a fact, I've seen it in other games and it's already becoming a problem that will only grow. Don't use damage meters? No invite. Don't use addons to automark things? No invite. It's time to put the foot down.

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Then report them, hope those damage meters were worth a ban on their account. Now they can go back to WoW.