The whole space thing has made me recall... The Dragonstar and Omega's homeworld. There /are/ other worlds out there different to the Ancients'. Now, I know Aliens™️ is a very old trope but... you know, besides having the NieR: Automata raid and having Omega and Sormr come from another planets, this should not surprise us.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alleluia
In the Ivalice raids, Mikoto speaks of how Ultima-the-Lucavi and how Ultima-the-spell share a name and notes that Ultima as cast by Ultima Weapon had aetheric readings that should not be possible in our world at least. It is evident Ultima is a threat come from a different world / plane. A malevolent entity / will coming to gorge on a star that rich in aether as the Ancients' was... Let us say, it would not be unheard of in Final Fantasy history.
What exactly do we know as of 5.3 about the sound that was heard before Amaurot fell?
Printable View
-
09-05-2020, 11:18 AMShadowMeowth
-
09-05-2020, 03:52 PMRyuDragnierIt brings to mind several creatures from SE's JRPG history. Lavos from Chrono Trigger, for one. There's also Deus from Xenogears and the Comet (Dark Gaia) from Illusion of Gaia.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowMeowth
-
09-06-2020, 04:59 AMVeloranPrimals are brought into being through rituals taught by the Ascians. When we go to Amaurot, we're told that we effectively have zero capacity for creation magic, the Ancient seeing this literally can't believe it because even newborn babes have an intrinsic affinity for it and we have no capability at all. Modern magic is, at best, a pale shadow of what creation magic actually is.Quote:
Creation Magic still exists. That is why Primals exist.
She turned a bunch of living things into dead, sundered things, which are inherently different from what they were before, so I'd say that's a change.Quote:
As far as we can tell, Hdyaelyn can't really change what a thing is.
I'm pretty sure we have zero reason to believe that Zodiark post-sundering is just "Zodiark, but 1/14th as powerful". This is one of the reasons why I think it's apt to describe him as "dead", because whatever state he exists in now is probably so broken that it can't be described as a thinking or acting being anymore.Quote:
Zodiark is still Zoidark, he's just 1/14 as powerful as he was originally.
We're literally told that it does on an innate level.Quote:
but that doesn't affect their ability to move aether around.
That's only a counter-argument if you assume those end-result Primals we see aren't flawed concepts. Lakshmi and Shiva, for example, bear little to no resemblance to how they should actually look - Shiva was a bastardized cross between Ysayle's incorrect ideal of Saint Shiva and Halone. Lakshmi is supposed to be the peak of Ananta beauty, but she was summoned with the appearance of a human. And the Titan summoned by Ga Bu was heavily mentally deficient and maddened. The concept of Thordan and his knights was cemented over the course of a thousand years, it's not surprising they match the venerated ideal of him.Quote:
Except we've seen several Primals summoned by accident with no Ascian involvement. Lakshmi and Susano come to mind. And Lakshmi was summoned by one individual not a group of people. As was Shiva and one version of Titan. And Thordan... etc.
"Bringing an idea into being" is an extremely nebulous and wide-scoped sort of criteria. The mechanics of Carbuncles, Egis, and Fairies aren't similar to creation magic beyond the broad concept of "aether taking a form".Quote:
Arcanism. Carbuncles, Egis and Faries all involve bringing an idea into being
I don't think this is really something we can argue here. You're told "You have no ability to use creation magic", therefore, the magic we have access to is not creation magic, certainly not how the Ancients would have any conception of it. -
09-06-2020, 04:03 PMVyrerusYes and no. There's character analogues and setting analogues, but the plots are radically different. A lot of reviewers at the time Forbidden Planet came out likened it to The Tempest, as a method of praise, and the filmmakers gladly accepted such a comparison, because of Shakespeare's notoriety.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuella
So that rippled onwards to people writing essay after essay comparing and contrasting the two, when in actuality their similarities only go so far as their shared tropes.
I mean, far be it from me to undo 64 years of literary interpretation by a multitude of scholars in a single forum post, but that's just my take on it. I think people often attribute stories that share tropes with Shakespeare's work to being inspired or direct ripping-offs of said Bard of Avon's work, but in actuality they're just re-tellings of older myths, much like Shakespeare's work itself.
Of course, if we do follow the consensus that Forbidden Planet is a modern twist on The Tempest, it does wrap everything up in a nice little bow with the zone name where Amaurot lies. Which would make Emet-selch Prospero and Azem Ferdinand. Coincedentally, Ferdinand means, "brave traveler." Heh. XIV's writers done good, huh? -
09-06-2020, 10:16 PMShadowMeowthI did not know of the play (I will not claim I know much of Shakespeare's work, here you would only study it if you course a degree on English Literature) but to have a general idea I checked the Wikipedia and dear Lord. The Tempest-area-of-Norvrandt is brimming to references to The Tempest-Shakespeare-play. Not just because of Prospero and Ferdinand (great catch on the name's meaning) as you mentioned, but there are zones of the Tempest named after characters in the play. Specifically, the Caliban Gap / Gorge and the Trinculo Shelf. This incidentally makes the Tempest being a combination of two great English classics: The Tempest by William Shakespeare in the seabed part, and Utopia by Thomas Moore in Amaurot's part. Very theatrical. Then again, it is Emet we are talking about. Of course he would be theatrical. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Vyrerus
-
09-06-2020, 11:09 PMKageTokage
I feel like if anyone knew about the sound (Assuming it was actually some kind of disturbance being created by something), it was likely Azem.
Though we haven't inherited their memories directly, it wouldn't surprise me if they decided to stow away their findings and knowledge somewhere secure (As in, secure enough to withstand calamities) in hopes that someone might discover it and make use of it some day and perhaps the stone will play into that.
Or at least I can't think of any other way they'll lay bare some of the mysteries of the Ancients that remain unanswered now that the unsundered are gone. -
09-06-2020, 11:26 PMShadowMeowthThat is the thing. The constellation crystal of Azem we have, that was not crafted by Azem themself, but by Emet-Selch, because Azem was not allowed to do so. There is the question, then: did Azem get to tell Emet about the Sound and he recorded that part in the crystal, or they could not tell their friends or anyone and left that knowledge secured somewhere? I assume that to even access that knowledge it would be needed to use Azem's power just like Allagan blood with the Crystal Tower, to draw a parallel, and the very key to do so was given to us by Emet if that were the case. (Note that Allagan blood is also Emet's thing; while Elidibus needed to steal the Exarch's vessel with his blood to control the Crystal Tower, Emet could activate some of its functions, namely the Ocular projector, as naturally as the Exarch.)Quote:
Originally Posted by KageTokage
There is also this comment Y'shtola makes while exploring the Tempest and the ruins of Amaurotine buildings. She speculates that in the Source any remnant of Amaurot and the Ancients would have been obliterated by the succession of Calamities. But what if it is not the case? What if there are, indeed, remnants of the unsundered star in the Source that survived the Calamity? That could be a very interesting line to follow from now on. The unsundered world was wider than Amaurot, after all, and it has been stated that the Sound began in faraway lands before it reached the great city. Room for thought. -
09-06-2020, 11:56 PMAlleluia
I feel like we might be able to get some relevant memories the more we get of Azem's soul. Of course, more soul shards would require rejoinings and we don't want to do that. But perhaps Azem's special ability will come in to play there.
Their ability to call their friends to them could be said to rely on bonds formed between themselves and others. So they are basically skilled at calling upon the bonds they've formed. Perhaps we can utilize that to form bonds with the other shards of our soul and essentially network our souls with theirs across world shards, no deaths required. Each soul shard should have the same latent ability, so they can reinforce the effect -- though we'd be strongest since we're the most complete. And then we can access the strongest/most important/urgent memories of the original Azem, which would likely include some revelation about the sound. -
09-07-2020, 02:05 AMObsidianFireNot all of them are. King Moggle Mog, Susano and Lakshmi have... nothing to do with Ascian involvement. Susano and Lakshmi are notable in that they were never summoned on purpose. Susano is summoned by three repositories of aether/faith that are associated with the same being all coming into close proximity to each other. And... somehow that being is formed by all the aether in them. The faith in the kami's goes back millenia to when Othard and Hingashi was settled in the wake of the fall of the Allagan Empire so... that's at least a few mellenia of faith and aether accumulation going into Susano's items.Quote:
Originally Posted by Veloran
Lakshmi is a lot more straightforward. The queen of the people who believe in Lakshimi asks their goddess for a favor and Lakshmi materializes in the real world and grants that wish. We still have no record of Ascians telling the Ananta how to summon Lakshmi though. No crystals are used either. We do know the Ananta are crazy good at using aether to manipulate gemstones and metal so they do seem to be a race with a lot of natural aether.
So it is possible to summon Primals without the directions so long as there's enough aether and faith/belief in an idea around.That is not what is said of us in the quest. In fact, I'd say this is trying to turn the entire point of that quest on it's head. Which is that the Creation Magic the Ancients used has way too many parallels to how we use Magic in general.Quote:
When we go to Amaurot, we're told that we effectively have zero capacity for creation magic, the Ancient seeing this literally can't believe it because even newborn babes have an intrinsic affinity for it and we have no capability at all. Modern magic is, at best, a pale shadow of what creation magic actually is.
It is not that we have "no capability for creation magic"; it is that we have a low creative potential. And in the very next sentence, we are told that that isn't a problem because there are tools Amarot uses if low creative potential is a problem. We're told that we can repurpose the aether of something else that already exists into the aether that we'll need to use Creation Magic. What we do have problems with is actually channeling the aether the way we're supposed to, instead of the thing we are supposed to be Creating, we get a Lightning Crystal Cluster... which a catalyst used in crafting, of all things...
We also get told in that quest that concepts used for Creation Magic are often recorded on crystals for further use. Which matches up very well how the shape aether is supposed to take is recorded in Soul Stones (all jobs), geometry of gemstones (carbuncles) and... literally any time in the game aether crystals are used to store some type of aetherial data for access later (too many times to count).When Emet-Selch describes Sundering to us, he never says the thing being sundered dies (and he's using Ryne, something alive, as the example). What he says is that Sundering somehow splits up something to make two of the same thing whose characteristics are half the strength of the thing when it was whole. Or in the case of Zoidark and the World, there was 14 of them, each with 1/14 strength characteristics of what they were before.Quote:
She [Hydaelyn] turned a bunch of living things into dead, sundered things, which are inherently different from what they were before, so I'd say that's a change.
I think if Sundering did kill things, Emet-Selch would have been more than happy to parade it around as an example of why Hydaelyn was so bad. Also, if everything that was Sundered did die, than life itself wouldn't be around at all. Hydaelyn didn't just Sunder Zoidark, she Sundered the whole world. So anything that happened to Zoidark, happened to the world. For that matter, the Ascians never talk about Zoidark as if he were dead; just as if he's not whole. That Ement-Selch never menitons death as a by-product or effect of Sundering is significant since he has no reason to conceal that from us.The Ascians sure think Zoidark is alive. And if all the normal life can still function after being Sundered, than Zoidark, a being much, much stronger than that life can also still function.Quote:
I'm pretty sure we have zero reason to believe that Zodiark post-sundering is just "Zodiark, but 1/14th as powerful". This is one of the reasons why I think it's apt to describe him as "dead", because whatever state he exists in now is probably so broken that it can't be described as a thinking or acting being anymore.
No we aren't. There's also all the evidence throughout history that we can move our own aether around just fine. To the point we can create Primals by accident even. So even if someone did tell us our ability to move aether around was somehow stunted so much as to not let us use Creation Magic, they've been proven wrong just by how the world works.Quote:
We're literally told that it does on an innate level.
You're assuming all the concepts the Ancients created didn't have flaws. Which we know they did. The quest you refer to further up has a character who talks about how hard keeping focus on a singular concept while doing Creation Magic is. And how one tiny distraction can lead to aberrations in the Creation. Like how an eagle landing nearby the person caused the lion they were Creating to have eagle wings by accident.Quote:
That's only a counter-argument if you assume those end-result Primals we see aren't flawed concepts. Lakshmi and Shiva, for example, bear little to no resemblance to how they should actually look - Shiva was a bastardized cross between Ysayle's incorrect ideal of Saint Shiva and Halone. Lakshmi is supposed to be the peak of Ananta beauty, but she was summoned with the appearance of a human. And the Titan summoned by Ga Bu was heavily mentally deficient and maddened. The concept of Thordan and his knights was cemented over the course of a thousand years, it's not surprising they match the venerated ideal of him.
The Creation Magic of the Ancients is just as "buggy" as ours is. That the concepts that are summoned as primals are warped a bit by their summoner's view of the concept is proof of how similar we are to the Ancients, not how different we are."Aether taking a form" is an excellent description of what Creation Magic is. It is nebulous and wide-scoped on purpose because Creation Magic is a very, very, very wide-scoped kind of magic. The only "real" limit on it is your imagination. We see limitations like how much aether a concept takes to create being overcome in Amarot in a variety of ways. We see ways of recording concepts long-term in crystals so that people other than their creator can make use of them.Quote:
"Bringing an idea into being" is an extremely nebulous and wide-scoped sort of criteria. The mechanics of Carbuncles, Egis, and Fairies aren't similar to creation magic beyond the broad concept of "aether taking a form".
This is false and not anywhere in the game. It would be more accurate to say we are using Creation Magic in some capacity all the time, we just didn't realize that is what it (or rather, what magic as a whole) really is.Quote:
I don't think this is really something we can argue here. You're told "You have no ability to use creation magic", therefore, the magic we have access to is not creation magic, certainly not how the Ancients would have any conception of it.
Here is the actual text of what we are told, which is a lot more complicated than "you can't do Creation Magic".As a final thought, there is also a very big difference between "can't" and "don't know how to yet". And... if us using Azem's Crystal in 5.3 is anything to go by, we definetly have the capacity to use our aether like an Ancient did once we have the right knowledge.Quote:
Pardon me for asking, but your creative potential is, um...relatively low, is it not? We are trained to assess these things, and I fear that you do not possess the ability to express this concept in physical form. It's almost as though you completely lack it, though that can't possibly be...
But regardless of the reason, you needn't worry. We have special tools that may be used to address this very eventuality.
I will furnish you with an aetheric rope you can use to restrain one of the misbegotten cubuses that congregate in the plaza north of the Akadaemia Anyder.
You will need to weaken your quarry before you can reliably bind them, but once you have, you can repurpose their energies to create your own robes.
.
.
.
You have done well, little one. Allow me to siphon its energies and prepare the matrix for you. It should only take a moment...
Here you are: a creation matrix that you may use to generate your own robes.
The concept is inscribed upon the crystal, which has been infused with the aether of the beast you brought me.
...What? Why are you looking at me as though you do not know how to channel the powers of creation? It is as natural as breathing─even a newborn babe has the instinct. Even if your potential is lacking, as one of our people, you must surely know what to do...
-
09-07-2020, 07:01 AMVeloranNot directly, but the method for focus+aether=Primal was propagated throughout the world by the Ascians. Even accidental cases of Primal summoning draw on this basic concept.Quote:
Not all of them are. King Moggle Mog, Susano and Lakshmi have... nothing to do with Ascian involvement.
I believe it's stated the first summoning of Lakshmi was facilitated by the gemstones (crystals) the Ananta mother had on hand, in the flash to it we see the crystal atop her headdress glowing with aether. Later on the Ananta plant crystals in the Ala Mhigan throne room to facilitate the summoning.Quote:
No crystals are used either. We do know the Ananta are crazy good at using aether to manipulate gemstones and metal so they do seem to be a race with a lot of natural aether.
This is specifically what we're told: "Pardon me for asking, but your creative potential is, um... Relatively low, is it not? We are trained to assess these things, and I fear that you do not posses the ability to express this concept in physical form. It's almost as though you completely lack it, though that can't possibly be..." and later after a concept matrix and aether is prepared for you, "... What? Why are you looking at me as though you do not know how to channel the powers of creation? It is as natural as breathing - Even a newborn babe has the instinct. Even if your potential is lacking, as one of our people, you must surely know what to do..."Quote:
It is not that we have "no capability for creation magic"; it is that we have a low creative potential.
So, despite being given a crystal infused with the concept of the robe and the necessary aether required to bring it into existence, the player still lacks the capability to actually create the robe. The process was as simplified as it could possibly be, but whereas even newborns can create as naturally as breathing, the player fails to do so. This, despite the WoL being a master of aetheric manipulation regardless of what job they happen to be.
We have to remember here, creation magic entails creating something physically. With magic and summoning, aether is willed to take certain forms or produce certain effects, but it doesn't substantiate wholly into physical matter. Even Primals require more and more aether to retain their semblance of physicality, and when they are spent the energy making them up simply cannot maintain shape anymore, and dissipates into nothing.
Okay, so where are the Ancients, and why is life now intrinsically different from them? If the Sundering didn't return them to the Lifestream in so doing, they should still be around.Quote:
When Emet-Selch describes Sundering to us, he never says the thing being sundered dies (and he's using Ryne, something alive, as the example). What he says is that Sundering somehow splits up something to make two of the same thing whose characteristics are half the strength of the thing when it was whole. Or in the case of Zoidark and the World, there was 14 of them, each with 1/14 strength characteristics of what they were before.
It's Hydaelyn's modus operandi to foster the advent and spread of life. She calls life on the current world "her children", so from that I feel it's safe to assume that she is responsible for the recreation of life across the shards. And as for Zodiark, it's said that the Ascians strive for his resurrection, from that I take it that it's reasonable to describe him as being "dead".Quote:
Also, if everything that was Sundered did die, than life itself wouldn't be around at all. Hydaelyn didn't just Sunder Zoidark, she Sundered the whole world. So anything that happened to Zoidark, happened to the world. For that matter, the Ascians never talk about Zoidark as if he were dead; just as if he's not whole.
And let's just think about this situation mechanically, exactly how can anyone or anything survive the process of being sundered into fourteen separate shards displaced across both space and time? Are we to believe that if you were an individual at the time of the Sundering, suddenly there are simply 14 copies of you that are simply 1/14th as "powerful", whatever that exactly means? What happens to your mind and body? Your soul and the aether of your body was split into 14, but you continued living - Until, what, dying of natural causes due to having a shortened lifespan? What about anyone that was already older than a hundred or so years, arguably practically all Ancients? Wouldn't they just drop dead on the spot anyway? How could you maintain your consciousness through this process? None of it makes any sense.
The Ascians don't think sundered life is "functional" to their standards though. Emet describes you as "not really being alive". So if that's the description of you, why isn't it the description of Zodiark?Quote:
And if all the normal life can still function after being Sundered, than Zoidark, a being much, much stronger than that life can also still function.
I don't think it's accurate to describe creation magic as simply "moving aether around". If anything it seems to convert aetheric energy to matter - I'd go as far as to say that it appears to have a positive conversion rate, IE that you can create more mass than you actually have energy. Emet is able to create all of phantom Amaurot without actually using an impossible amount of aether to do so. With modern magic and summoning, you need increasing amounts of aether to produce sustained forms and effects, and even then what is made is not fully substantiated, it disappears as soon as energy stops entering the system to fuel it.Quote:
There's also all the evidence throughout history that we can move our own aether around just fine.
I'm not assuming that, it was possible for the Ancients to produce flawed concepts. However, what they did and what we do is worlds apart, again it bears little real similarity.Quote:
You're assuming all the concepts the Ancients created didn't have flaws.
You're talking two different things here. Yes, creation magic can be used to create almost anything. That doesn't mean that creation magic is almost anything.Quote:
"Aether taking a form" is an excellent description of what Creation Magic is. It is nebulous and wide-scoped on purpose because Creation Magic is a very, very, very wide-scoped kind of magic. The only "real" limit on it is your imagination.
The quotes you're supplying say that.Quote:
This is false and not anywhere in the game.
The attendant says "it's almost as though you completely lack it", then when you turn in the quest he says that even a newborn baby is capable of it. You never do use creation magic to make the cloak either, WoL fails to do so. I don't understand why you think this supports the argument that all magic is creation magic, when we aren't able to make the slightest use of it in that instance, and are directly told that it's as though we completely lack the ability.Quote:
As a final thought, there is also a very big difference between "can't" and "don't know how to yet".
Again, if you want to define modern magic that way, it is so far removed from the Ancient's own conception of creation magic that they cannot even recognize it as such.
I'll also say, tapping into Azem's crystal to summon allies to our side isn't the same thing as using creation magic, we have no reason to think one is equivalent to the other.