Something in 5.3 MSQ felt off to me (SPOILERS)

One of the conversations you can have with G'raha Tia post-MSQ touches on some of this when he's talking about his two identities having merged.

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G'RAHA TIA
You, of course, merged with Ardbert. And as similar as your souls may have been, the fact is you were different people. Thus did your soul gain in density.
How you were able to merge is another matter. Given what we know of the soul, that you possessed distinct memories should have rendered the process more complicated. Though I but theorize, perhaps your strong and shared desire to do so made it possible.

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Which of course doesn't answer what happened to Ardbert's memories after that. G'raha's seem to have simply overlapped each other and he seems to be both selves at once, but we don't seem to have taken on Ardbert's identity at all.

Perhaps we took on his soul but not his memories, and that makes it work more like whatever happens when worlds are rejoined by calamities? There must be something that happens with the soul fragments that get rejoined to us then - either they get stripped of their individual identity with the death of the person who previously possessed it, or they all arrive with some kind of identity attached.

Ardbert's soul is such an outlier because it's still conscious and in possession of his memories after death. We don't have anything to compare it to.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

One of the conversations you can have with G'raha Tia post-MSQ touches on some of this when he's talking about his two identities having merged.

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God, I really need to make sure I speak with everyone post 5.3

The entire conversation was really insightful. The way Graha spoke of how Shtola sees both our souls (both Graha and WoL's I mean) is by them simply being more dense yet "Normal besides that", not two entities existing within it. From that, it really makes me believe that Ardbert as an individual truly passed on, and that his crystal had yet a message left in it such as it happened with all his friends. Urianger finding the crystal then having us deliver it also makes me think so. I don't believe our soul would look "normal" to Shtola if he remained. Really makes me wish I could speak with her directly, but I can't seem to find her in the map! I do remember both her and Ryne describing the WoL's aether/soul as "restored" and "as it used to be" and not enhanced or combined. Had to double check the cutscene (right after fighting Hades) to see exactly what words they were using.

I suppose one can continue to ponder about what each dialogue line means. I have strong feelings about this topic, and I've tried my best to read everyone's thoughts, as I know not everyone agrees with me. I apologize if I ever came across as rude or something, as it was not mine intent! This game just means so much to me and I really wanted to share and read thoughts about the topic.

-Viv

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Originally Posted by DiaDeem

God, I really need to make sure I speak with everyone post 5.3

The entire conversation was really insightful. The way Graha spoke of how Shtola sees both our souls (both Graha and WoL's I mean) is by them simply being more dense yet "Normal besides that", not two entities existing within it. From that, it really makes me believe that Ardbert as an individual truly passed on, and that his crystal had yet a message left in it such as it happened with all his friends. Urianger finding the crystal then having us deliver it also makes me think so. I don't believe our soul would look "normal" to Shtola if he remained. Really makes me wish I could speak with her directly, but I can't seem to find her in the map! I do remember both her and Ryne describing the WoL's aether/soul as "restored" and "as it used to be" and not enhanced or combined. Had to double check the cutscene (right after fighting Hades) to see exactly what words they were using.

I suppose one can continue to ponder about what each dialogue line means. I have strong feelings about this topic, and I've tried my best to read everyone's thoughts, as I know not everyone agrees with me. I apologize if I ever came across as rude or something, as it was not mine intent! This game just means so much to me and I really wanted to share and read thoughts about the topic.

-Viv

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Aether and soul aren't interchangeable but two Seperate things.

Feo Ul: look at what you've done to you're Aether its a mess (the nascent corruption from absorbing too much light) and your beautiful soul is full of cracks. (Not the exact wording she uses during the cutscene after we couldnt contain the light and begin changing into a lightwarden but pretty close).

Atleast thats the feeling I'm getting from it. We are expending our soul when we use our Aether either.

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Originally Posted by Rannie

Aether and soul aren't interchangeable but two Seperate things.

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Yeah, you're right (loved the Feo quote!). Shtola mentions the WoL's aether being "as it was" and it was Ryne specifically who spoke of our soul getting "restored". I believe they're still somewhat intertwined, not just when coping with the light of the First, but for stuff related to the Echo. But yes: you're right that they're not the same thing. I did a poor job explaining myself, it was my bad.

^_^ sall good also I kinda still doubt it was the crystal. Remember, the Amaro were originally bred to be able to recognize the souls of their Masters. It was why when we first met him he recognized the same coloring with us and saw alot of ardbert within us. (In retrospect he was the first one to see it and kinda hint at who Ardbert was before Hythlodaeus confirmed it. Yes Ardbert and our character love seperate lives and on seperate shards but was ultimately the same soul. As someone pointed out a reincarnation thing. Also, with the crystals of his friends comrades, everyone could see the memories but they could never touch the memories, Giott ran right through Lamitt at the end of her memory because that's all it was a type of hologram and the memories were extremely faded. Its why I highly doubt that what happened was via the faded Crystal of Light.

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Originally Posted by Rannie

^_^ sall good also I kinda still doubt it was the crystal. Remember, the Amaro were originally bred to be able to recognize the souls of their Masters. It was why when we first met him he recognized the same coloring with us and saw alot of ardbert within us. (In retrospect he was the first one to see it and kinda hint at who Ardbert was before Hythlodaeus confirmed it. Yes Ardbert and our character love seperate lives and on seperate shards but was ultimately the same soul. As someone pointed out a reincarnation thing. Also, with the crystals of his friends comrades, everyone could see the memories but they could never touch the memories, Giott ran right through Lamitt at the end of her memory because that's all it was a type of hologram and the memories were extremely faded. Its why I highly doubt that what happened was via the faded Crystal of Light.

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I believe the conditions to Ardbert's crystal were much more circumstantial/specific than everyone else's. I truly don't think the scene would have happened without the crystal. I believe the crystal, combined with how senstive Amaro are to souls basically allowed the whole thing to happen.

Someone also pointed it out, that even Seto himself upon first meeting the WoL states "Strikingly similar, but you are you". If the soul was different/mixed post merging, I think all Ryne, Shtola and Feo would have pointed that out afterwards, but it is described simply as "More dense, yet normal. Restored".

I firmly believe that though Azem's soul was once whole, it can never be recreated as it once was, and thus each individual is their own. Even the WoL tells Elidibus right before he turns into his boss form one of two things: "Those who once relied upon you are no more" or "However hard you struggle, you will never bring back the Convocation", very much pointing that once souls are sundered, the original is gone. Elidibus is on a futile quest. Even Emet-Selch himself had a contingency plan, that if he should fail, he'd leave that last shard of himself around to help the WoL rid Elidibus of his pain and futile duty.

There's a bit more on the themes reincarnation and individuality within the Pixies Quests, but I don't want to spoil that if you haven't played them!

For reference, the entire conversation (and a bonus one):

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...e_post_5-3.jpg

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Originally Posted by DiaDeem

Really makes me wish I could speak with her directly, but I can't seem to find her in the map! I do remember both her and Ryne describing the WoL's aether/soul as "restored" and "as it used to be" and not enhanced or combined. Had to double check the cutscene (right after fighting Hades) to see exactly what words they were using.

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Y'shtola is in Dawn's Respite (now that we can use that door) and doesn't have anything to say about aether. She's just giving information on Seeker naming conventions that...well, contradicts the Naming Conventions. >_<

TL;DR: Male titles aren't actually about holding territory as she puts it, but even if they were, there's no reason why G'raha shouldn't be currently considered a tia since he's relinquished his role as Exarch. Y'shtola should be correcting Alphinaud on this, not perpetuating it.

At least it's confirmed my impression that the titles are handled more like part of their given name than a surname, in that it's not unusual to always include it when talking to or about them, but it's "not disrespectful" to leave it off either.

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Originally Posted by Rannie

Aether and soul aren't interchangeable but two Seperate things.

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They're not interchangeable, no, but it's not "one or the other".

Aether makes up everything. Body, memories and soul are all formed of different types of aether, and evidently Y'shtola can see soul-aether to judge that.

(Which raises the question of why she didn't work out what was going on with Elidibus, or "Ardbert" before we confirmed it was Elidibus, but let's not stare too deep into that plothole...)

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Originally Posted by DiaDeem

I believe the conditions to Ardbert's crystal were much more circumstantial/specific than everyone else's. I truly don't think the scene would have happened without the crystal. I believe the crystal, combined with how senstive Amaro are to souls basically allowed the whole thing to happen.

Someone also pointed it out, that even Seto himself upon first meeting the WoL states "Strikingly similar, but you are you". If the soul was different/mixed post merging, I think all Ryne, Shtola and Feo would have pointed that out afterwards, but it is "More dense, yet normal. Restored" somewhat grouping the descriptors we have so far.

I firmly believe that though Azem's soul was once whole, it can never be recreated as it once was, and thus each individual is their own. Even the WoL tells Elidibus right before he turns into his boss form something along the lines of... "Those you wanna bring back are long gone" referring to the Congregation, very much pointing that sundered souls once gone are gone (looking for the actual quote and will edit to the proper one once I find it). That's part of the futility of Elidibus' quest.

There's a bit more on the themes reincarnation and individuality within the Pixies Quests, but I don't want to spoil that if you haven't played them!

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I'm blood sworn with the pixies.. however one thing Ardbert states to seto was how big he had grown... we know that he had only said that to us while he was in spirit form and not when he in his body. Especially seeing as as soon as he was dead he was whisked away to the source then after coming back wandered for 100 years without even going to see Seto. That first time was when seto was talking to us was Walkendorf ( I know I spelled that completely wrong).

Also Iscah yes you are right with some of that though i see the aether more as energy while the soul is more of a jar containing it. I admit my thoughts on it may be a trifle weird lol.

Btw thanks for keeping me occupied while I'm at work both of you I appreciate it and enjoying this convo.


Edit: last edit for this... if I also remember correctly didnt Urianger point out that Ardberts Crystal of light was spent anyway? He originally had the Fire Crystal of light while we started with the opposite water Crystal. *shrugs*

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Originally Posted by Iscah

TL;DR: Male titles aren't actually about holding territory as she puts it, but even if they were, there's no reason why G'raha shouldn't be currently considered a tia since he's relinquished his role as Exarch. Y'shtola should be correcting Alphinaud on this, not perpetuating it.

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Oh God, the whole Tia/Nunh thing!! I was wondering if Graha would keep the Tia after being Exarch. It just didn't feel right to me. Also, gonna go tell Matoya where Shtola is. She should have visited by now.

Edit: Do you know where Ryne is?

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Originally Posted by Rannie

I'm blood sworn with the pixies.. however one thing Ardbert states to seto was how big he had grown... we know that he had only said that to us while he was in spirit form and not when he in his body. Especially seeing as as soon as he was dead he was whisked away to the source then after coming back wandered for 100 years without even going to see Seto. That first time was when seto was talking to us was Walkendorf ( I know I spelled that completely wrong).

Also Iscah yes you are right with some of that though i see the aether more as energy while the soul is more of a jar containing it. I admit my thoughts on it may be a trifle weird lol.

Btw thanks for keeping me occupied while I'm at work both of you I appreciate it and enjoying this convo.

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I too appreciate the conversation! I've realized we're probably not gonna see eye-to-eye with the whole Ardbert situation, but as I've stated before, I just needed to talk about the topic with more people. I couldn't hold it in, it was somewhat eating me. Now we're all sharing different theories!

About the pixies: You'll remember how it is very much clear that An Lad is the previous Titania's reincarnation, yet Tyr Beq very much states how they're thankful you "Set their departed friend free", much akin to how Seto spoke of Ardbert when he receives his crystal. Even though An Lad is the previous Titania, they're also their own new individual. That's why it's really sad how they continue to have all the pain of their old selves, while being now An Lad. Thankfully Tyr Beq, Ezel and the WoL befriend An Lad, but I think it speaks of this whole theme of "being your own self" that runs through all of ShB, with the Amaurotian's stories, the value that Emet couldn't see in sundered souls, Ryne and Minfilia's arc and finally Ardbert passing on through the merge with the WoL. I don't think Ardbert would want to exist as a "forced consciousness" within the WoL. I also feel it'd go against many of the themes in the game, and as for me: It feels horribly intrusive, and why I just won't accept it for my WoL.
(Now starting to repeat myself! > < should stop there)

Though like I said: it's fine if we don't end up agreeing on like "a single truth" or whatever. This has been a lot of fun! :)

Edit: We can see eye to eye on our pixie love tho!

-Viv