So...is the Ranged Role gone? Are we in a Reverse HW?

[QUOTE=HyperiusUltima;5289421]This is a concern since Yoshida didn't even so much as mention Ranged in the Live Letter. The problem we're facing is being so weak that you can literally replace us with a BLM if they can perform high enough to get rid of 1% All Stats for damage(in Savage, not Ultimate). The issue arose in regard to SMN, but since they're nerfing its DoTs, we still are running the same problem unless they bother to properly upgrade Ranged's damage capacity to compensate for the 1k+ DPS/rDPS disparity based on the site that shall not be named.



MCH
- Increase the damage on MCH's burst and baseline to bring it up to a proper level. It's the only selfish job that has a 10% Mitigation and gets outdone by Caster contribution and yet it's not up there around where MNK and SAM are.

omfg yes I have been saying this for months. Please s.e read this. People keep saying oh you want mch to hit like blm? No clowns I am saying we shouldnt be lower thank smn drg etc. Ranged tax is bs. I have played all roles. Atlease 3 classes in all roles. This ranged tax is bs. As a smn I feel like I never have to stay still. It feels the same as mch to me. I just run around and control my pets while moving. Only time I stop is when I have to out dots up etc. With Mch specially the ping issue. It\\'s hard to weave and move in stuff like w.f and hit shot combo. Also as sam I almost never have to run up to the boss. I dash away with my evade move. Then I close the gap with my gap closer. It doesnt hurt my rotation. And for all of the dps I have domt through the fight. Its doesn\\'t justify why ranged is so low. People just cant dodge or time their skills right. They get clipped and die then complain at ranged for staying alive more. Even as a caster they were complaining at smn and rdm. Now it\\'s all on ranged dps.

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Originally Posted by Aiscence

Tbf, I dont know why people wants to force the "two melees", if there is all 3 dps roles, I dont know why bringing a second ranged should penalize a team that much, compared to bringing another melee or caster.

Machinist is easy to pick up but not as easy to fully optimize and keep that high apm without any drift, on top of being highly depending of raid buffs to do his damage, which BLM and SAM dont depend on as much. So mch should have less dps than a job having rezzes and raid buffs just because we can "move" ? I felt way more comfy playing SMN than I did playing playing MCH because of the mobility and the lack of intensity in its gameplay.

Lots of other jobs could just do the ranged movement, even tho they'll lose 1 or 2 GCD and still outdps the ranged contribution in any content.

i'll even more double down on the fact MCH should be on a BLM or SAM lvl, if a team have all 3 roles already and they want a greedy job? why isnt mch a valid choice? just because they can move? As I said in multiple other threads, ranged, because of the mobility are doing -more- mechanics than others, to let them have more dps and we are punished for it?? In which world is that fair? Because we are doing well our job, we are getting punished? Imagine IRL you did more studies, leading to you doing more stuff than others but being paid less because you have an easier time doing it ?

And to answer other questions, double ranged was taken because casters were really bad, which isnt the case here (outside of rdm being a bit low), even if the ranged were buffed (accordingly to how they should be, not overbuffed), people would actually have the choice to play -what they enjoy- and not feel like having only one ranged is mandatory or dps will become an issue. Thus, when double ranged were taken, it was because the other jobs were trash garbage to play and felt horrible on top of having bad dps. if a job has an horrible gameplay but have good dps, it'll be played anyway.

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Exactly they dont have to be that. Lost to sam and blm. But mch shouldnt be behind the raid utility classes. That brings so much. Mch damage is crap. For the lack of utilities. Theres no role specialties anymore. Ranged dps isn't the only role that brings utilities anymore. Yall need understand that. Every class but sam and blm and mch have great utilities

Exactly they dont have to be that. Close to sam and blm.*

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Originally Posted by Aiscence

Machinist is easy to pick up but not as easy to fully optimize and keep that high apm without any drift, on top of being highly depending of raid buffs to do his damage, which BLM and SAM dont depend on as much. So mch should have less dps than a job having rezzes and raid buffs just because we can "move" ? I felt way more comfy playing SMN than I did playing playing MCH because of the mobility and the lack of intensity in its gameplay.

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How does Machinist depend more on raid buffs than Black Mage and Samurai? All three are selfish jobs. If anything, the latter two benefit more because of their higher output.

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Lots of other jobs could just do the ranged movement, even tho they'll lose 1 or 2 GCD and still outdps the ranged contribution in any content.

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Alphascape and every single Ultimate fight would like a word with you about that. Go ask Paladin and Dark Knights how much they liked doing Panto2.

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i'll even more double down on the fact MCH should be on a BLM or SAM lvl, if a team have all 3 roles already and they want a greedy job? why isnt mch a valid choice? just because they can move? As I said in multiple other threads, ranged, because of the mobility are doing -more- mechanics than others, to let them have more dps and we are punished for it?? In which world is that fair? Because we are doing well our job, we are getting punished? Imagine IRL you did more studies, leading to you doing more stuff than others but being paid less because you have an easier time doing it ?

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Because in the fights mentioned above, melee will suffer far worse than the range do now. Non-uptime Hello, World is bad enough for melee you wouldn't bring any of them. The 1% simply wouldn't make up for the sheer loss they suffer having to disengage so much. This is also why your analogy doesn't work. There is nothing melee can do to compensate for fights that force them away from the boss except hope people are willing to accommodate them. Higher end statics will, but the average won't. This makes them increasingly less desired. In essence, they get put into the Range role now but with even worse utility.

That all said, I do believe the Range should be buffed so bringing two of them isn't such a massive loss. However, putting Machinist at Samurai levels makes it better than Samurai is every facet. It offers better utility, free mobility and now equal damage. Why would you ever consider Samurai? In fact, this pretty much makes Dragoon and Ninja the only melee groups would even look at because of their utility. Monk doesn't offer enough and Samurai is, as I said, a worse Machinist in this hypothetical.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

How does Machinist depend more on raid buffs than Black Mage and Samurai? All three are selfish jobs. If anything, the latter two benefit more because of their higher output.

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Because of how his burst works, you try to align turrets and WF to align on raid buffs, with awkward gauge management on top of your two "strong" gcds, but with every drift you lose quite a big part of damage because you are not aligned anymore without hope of getting back into it. SAM and BLM are doing good damage on their own, buffs are giving them "more", but arent doubling their dps (compared to the average they have, outside of them) for the duration of their burst, which lead to them being a huge component of mch's dps, even though less than in SB. just compare a death of all 3, BLM can just get back into their rotation, sam the same, but MCH's dps will just plummit hard because of that (on top of being ultra punitive because of the loss of ressources, like smn).

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Alphascape and every single Ultimate fight would like a word with you about that. Go ask Paladin and Dark Knights how much they liked doing Panto2.

Because in the fights mentioned above, melee will suffer far worse than the range do now. Non-uptime Hello, World is bad enough for melee you wouldn't bring any of them. The 1% simply wouldn't make up for the sheer loss they suffer having to disengage so much. This is also why your analogy doesn't work. There is nothing melee can do to compensate for fights that force them away from the boss except hope people are willing to accommodate them. Higher end statics will, but the average won't. This makes them increasingly less desired. In essence, they get put into the Range role now but with even worse utility.

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Stormblood was another thing, job had different tools, some had less mobility, brd was clearly too strong (which i will come back to it later), etc. O12s FO was badly designed too, but you seem to forget how, during 4.4, mch was so bad some were apologizing and thanking their group for letting them do the prog as one, a sam actually bringing more in a meta comp than them. And during SB, there were double range, triple melees, etc used to speedrun. About panto, that strat was actually a -cheese- strat, the ranged or caster were supposed to do it. And speaking of ultimate, I cleared all three of them: Ucob liquid fire bait could be done by a healer or a caster, they were the one taking the range spot if they had to do the neurolink anyway, melee had to leave the melee too for those anyway. UwU eruptions were anyway done with ranged + caster or healers. TEA had literally nothing to bait outside of a tornado and one super jump which basically bring the boss to you, so even a melee could technically do it and only barely lose 2 GCDs at max.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

That all said, I do believe the Range should be buffed so bringing two of them isn't such a massive loss. However, putting Machinist at Samurai levels makes it better than Samurai is every facet. It offers better utility, free mobility and now equal damage. Why would you ever consider Samurai? In fact, this pretty much makes Dragoon and Ninja the only melee groups would even look at because of their utility. Monk doesn't offer enough and Samurai is, as I said, a worse Machinist in this hypothetical.

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For me a mch should be under a sam, dont get me wrong, but it shouldnt be under everything else either. Like if your team had a DRG, a BRD and a SMN (random pick): you have all 3 roles, thus last pick should be up to your heart content, and yet, if you bring a mch or a dancer, you will handicap your team more than bringing any other job in the game even tho you already have a baiter. That's where my point is, if you already have all role bonuses, if you take any jobs instead of the mch, you will have buffs, rezzes, and 600 to 1k5 dps more dps easily. In SB, brd was the most OP dps in the game technically, even tho their pdps wasnt the highest (even tho respectable) it was bringing so much no one ever wanted a mch, and it was competing against caster for the last slot, that's something I dont want to happen here, it just dont feel right that as long as you have all 3 roles, bringing a second ranged just make you lose that much.

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Originally Posted by Aiscence

Because of how his burst works, you try to align turrets and WF to align on raid buffs, with awkward gauge management on top of your two "strong" gcds, but with every drift you lose quite a big part of damage because you are not aligned anymore without hope of getting back into it. SAM and BLM are doing good damage on their own, buffs are giving them "more", but arent doubling their dps (compared to the average they have, outside of them) for the duration of their burst, which lead to them being a huge component of mch's dps, even though less than in SB. just compare a death of all 3, BLM can just get back into their rotation, sam the same, but MCH's dps will just plummit hard because of that (on top of being ultra punitive because of the loss of ressources, like smn).

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Buffs are not doubling Machinist's damage; they aren't coming close to that. If so, you'd see a massive difference in their output based on comp. Ninja and Dragoon would all but be required to bring a Machinist. That has never been the case so far this expansion. Furthermore, if you miss a Xenoglossy in raid buffs, you're going to see a much higher damage loss. Samurai also can have drift issues hence why they have to eat a certain number of Sens depending on their SkS.

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Stormblood was another thing, job had different tools, some had less mobility, brd was clearly too strong (which i will come back to it later), etc. O12s FO was badly designed too, but you seem to forget how, during 4.4, mch was so bad some were apologizing and thanking their group for letting them do the prog as one, a sam actually bringing more in a meta comp than them. And during SB, there were double range, triple melees, etc used to speedrun. About panto, that strat was actually a -cheese- strat, the ranged or caster were supposed to do it. And speaking of ultimate, I cleared all three of them: Ucob liquid fire bait could be done by a healer or a caster, they were the one taking the range spot if they had to do the neurolink anyway, melee had to leave the melee too for those anyway. UwU eruptions were anyway done with ranged + caster or healers. TEA had literally nothing to bait outside of a tornado and one super jump which basically bring the boss to you, so even a melee could technically do it and only barely lose 2 GCDs at max.

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First and foremost, the highlighted portion is flat out wrong. Not only was Machinist's overall damage good, it offered Hypercharge. Which was better than anything every other DPS offered except Dragoon, Ninja and Bard. The only reason it was dropped into obscurity is due to ping issues—made worse by the gear that tier having SkS. Summoner also being incredibly strong made it a lock for the fourth slot in terms of speed meta (unless triple melee worked). For parse runs though, you wanted Machinist, Red Mage or Summoner in that order. The other slots were obviously the big three. Samurai was nearly worthless in Stormblood; at times doing less damage than even Monk despite having no utility. Given how FFlogs worked back then, no serious group brought Samurai over Machinist. Most wouldn't even bring Samurai, period. M/F being the sole exception.

Healers only took the spot for Range if you were running Red Mage. Even then, Red Mage could usually do the first without too much issue. TEA is significantly easier to manage with triple range. You can basically make your melee do absolutely nothing instead of having more people move around. Regardless, my initial point is all these mechanics couldn't be done by melee without a massive damage loss.

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Originally Posted by Aiscence

For me a mch should be under a sam, dont get me wrong, but it shouldnt be under everything else either. Like if your team had a DRG, a BRD and a SMN (random pick): you have all 3 roles, thus last pick should be up to your heart content, and yet, if you bring a mch or a dancer, you will handicap your team more than bringing any other job in the game even tho you already have a baiter. That's where my point is, if you already have all role bonuses, if you take any jobs instead of the mch, you will have buffs, rezzes, and 600 to 1k5 dps more dps easily. In SB, brd was the most OP dps in the game technically, even tho their pdps wasnt the highest (even tho respectable) it was bringing so much no one ever wanted a mch, and it was competing against caster for the last slot, that's something I dont want to happen here, it just dont feel right that as long as you have all 3 roles, bringing a second ranged just make you lose that much.

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We ultimately agree in that regard, though likely not on the amount. Looking at E2S since it's more or less a dummy fight, you could bring Machinist closer to Dragoon. Bard and Dancer could roughly be where Red Mage is now, or maybe a little closer to Ninja. This still accounts for their superior utility (Tactician and friends is much better than Feint) and free mobility without killing the melee in an uptime heavy fight. Keep in mind, I'm assuming Summoner will come down enough to be below Monk in this example.

Instead of complaining like children you can offer some constructive criticism.

Can someone please explain why this is a bad thing?
"Physical ranged no longer have a monopoly over a slot, so you can literally bring any ranged jobs you like, and I don't like that."

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Originally Posted by Aiscence

For me a mch should be under a sam, dont get me wrong, but it shouldnt be under everything else either. Like if your team had a DRG, a BRD and a SMN (random pick): you have all 3 roles, thus last pick should be up to your heart content, and yet, if you bring a mch or a dancer, you will handicap your team more than bringing any other job in the game even tho you already have a baiter. That's where my point is, if you already have all role bonuses, if you take any jobs instead of the mch, you will have buffs, rezzes, and 600 to 1k5 dps more dps easily. In SB, brd was the most OP dps in the game technically, even tho their pdps wasnt the highest (even tho respectable) it was bringing so much no one ever wanted a mch, and it was competing against caster for the last slot, that's something I dont want to happen here, it just dont feel right that as long as you have all 3 roles, bringing a second ranged just make you lose that much.

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Exactly mch should be UNDER sam. No one said to do as much as sam or blm. People keep saying that. Yet no one ever said mch should be hitting as hard or more than sam or blm. We are saying mch should be Under or next in line after sam. People need to stop manipulating the wording and making it seem like we're asking to do sam or blm damage. Once again. We are saying mch should be next in line after sam on the dps charts. That's all. Or 4th.