Did people even ask for changes to AST, like they do / did for MNK and MCH?

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Originally Posted by YusiKha

Spire and Ewer were two of the strongest cards because of their Royal Road effect (~3x power). It wasn’t as effective in solo or light party content, but none of the RR effects were great in that scenario either.

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As HyoMinPark I was talking about Spire's functionality as a tp replenishment tool which got severely diminished in usefulness from HW to SB

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

This is honestly a mood.

It could be incredibly annoying to get a Spread Spire, Drawn Spire, AOE Royal Road with Lady of Crowns in a Sleeve Draw—and you’d just be sitting here like “ugh what are these cards”. And then the next time you use Sleeve, you get the god-tier Sleeve of Spread Balance, Drawn Balance, AOE Royal Road with Lord of Crowns. I liked that about Sleeve. The lows made the highs great.

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I sort of just tried to come up with another system where cards still had effects that were noticeable but people also felt it was way too strong even if you nerfed pDPS.

It leaves me thinking that if a system where "all cards are can be felt and feel useful" is too strong then..

1. The cards either have to be all soupy, weak and homogenized which is really unsatisfying..

Or

2. You have to accept lows in order to get highs.

I would definitely pick the second option. Especially with the way that you had the ability to line up lucid and celestial with a good aoe card or choose when you would use time dilation, whether it was defensively on your tank with a stack of regens or to spend it on a damage dealing card combo and extend the high even more. It feels really good to get nice combos and line them up with extending your own cooldowns, the "soupy" option just feels like.. If i can continute to properly weave this for the next 12 minutes, I'll remain competitive?..

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Originally Posted by Crushnight

As HyoMinPark I was talking about Spire's functionality as a tp replenishment tool which got severely diminished in usefulness from HW to SB

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In that case you're right.

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Originally Posted by Synaesthesia

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Or you could have a system where each arcanum is guaranteed over a 180s period of time. Randomness and highs would come from the order that you get cards in, rather than each individual card.

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Originally Posted by Synaesthesia

I sort of just tried to come up with another system where cards still had effects that were noticeable but people also felt it was way too strong even if you nerfed pDPS.

It leaves me thinking that if a system where "all cards are can be felt and feel useful" is too strong then..

1. The cards either have to be all soupy, weak and homogenized which is really unsatisfying..

Or

2. You have to accept lows in order to get highs.

I would definitely pick the second option. Especially with the way that you had the ability to line up lucid and celestial with a good aoe card or choose when you would use time dilation, whether it was defensively on your tank with a stack of regens or to spend it on a damage dealing card combo and extend the high even more. It feels really good to get nice combos and line them up with extending your own cooldowns, the "soupy" option just feels like.. If i can continute to properly weave this for the next 12 minutes, I'll remain competitive?..

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Your system was listed as too strong because all of your cards were straight damage buffs—anywhere from 8% flat to scaling up to 12% for 30 seconds each. You didn’t mention anything about AOE versus Single-target, but if those were also applicable to AOE, then that’s even crazier. Giving AST that much—even with nerfing their personal damage—is too much. AOE Balance in HW and SB alone was enough to oust WHM, and it was just 5% AOE. You didn’t list anything that would balance AST against the other two healers after giving AST insane amounts of damage buffs. As I said in your thread, not every card has to be a damage card to be viable; and I would rather see more variety rather that the illusion your system would give.

Another poster—I believe, in your thread—brought up the idea of splitting offensive and utility cards, and allowing an AST to hold 1 offensive card and 1 utility card at a time. That would allow for Boles (20% mitigation) or Ewer (MP refresh) to no longer be competing with damage cards (Balance, Spear, and Arrow).

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Your system was listed as too strong because all of your cards were straight damage buffs—anywhere from 8% flat to scaling up to 12% for 30 seconds each. You didn’t mention anything about AOE versus Single-target, but if those were also applicable to AOE, then that’s even crazier. Giving AST that much—even with nerfing their personal damage—is too much. AOE Balance in HW and SB alone was enough to oust WHM, and it was just 5% AOE. You didn’t list anything that would balance AST against the other two healers after giving AST insane amounts of damage buffs. As I said in your thread, not every card has to be a damage card to be viable; and I would rather see more variety rather that the illusion your system would give.

Another poster—I believe, in your thread—brought up the idea of splitting offensive and utility cards, and allowing an AST to hold 1 offensive card and 1 utility card at a time. That would allow for Boles (20% mitigation) or Ewer (MP refresh) to no longer be competing with damage cards (Balance, Spear, and Arrow).

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In that thread, I've considered that it was too strong. I want to have a feeling like I can feel these cards but many people have a problem like "This is useless" because if it's not the best, it's nothing. I was thinking you could balance damage way down to offset it while making cards feel good, but it doesn't seem something that's agreeable. I did list the changes I felt that should happen to other healers when prompted by someone else, but did not want to make a huge "fix all of this at once" megathread when I started. As well, when you consider how each card would apply to AoE, the new Ewer, Spire and Bole would not have any optimal performance in an aoe situation. The effect of Ewer would only apply to 1/2 the party, Spire would be weaker than balance on most party members, and bole would be ineffective in almost every situation. But if it's too strong, that's okay. I don't need *that* system, I just want one that's good..

All of the cards systems I've seen so far are ultimately an illusion to someone though. If you're fishing for the most damage, the old system is an illusion. The new one is also an illusion because you have a predetermined optimal path as well. What matters is that there's enjoyment out of the illusion like having an effect you can feel, or a way to have agency over the effects you are given turning the illusion into a real choice - like extending a good effect when you have one and even lining it up with other effects like we used to be able to do.

Splitting them up could feel okay too!

I am surprised that more people aren't talking about the loss of two oGCD abilities that AST lost with the changes to the card system. The old lord and lady of crowns were either a free heal or damage skill which I thought were what everyone was after. These kinds of abilities seem to come up very often when people compare healers because most of the GCD abilities are very similar among the healers.

I think there was like some complaints about balance fishing, and useless card on the forums just before the launch of 5.0, which were non-problematic issues when compared to just the amount of attention the card mechanic can demand and cause players to lose focus on the healing mechanics. And, then what was implemented basically made it way more frantic and busy, so it ends up being more distracting while requiring way more fishing. The healing potencies were also super weak, which conflicted with the card design and attention requirements.

And, it really odd since like more people were focused on mastery with a few threads about improving whm (the only hlr that needed to be fixed) if I'm remembering everything properly

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Originally Posted by SieyaM

I am surprised that more people aren't talking about the loss of two oGCD abilities that AST lost with the changes to the card system. The old lord and lady of crowns were either a free heal or damage skill which I thought were what everyone was after. These kinds of abilities seem to come up very often when people compare healers because most of the GCD abilities are very similar among the healers.

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Ah yes. Lord of Crowns. The result of getting a card you couldn't play or RR. Its main draw was being your strongest hitting attack that you never wanted to get, but at least it's not Lady.
Ah yes. Lady of Crowns. Only ever used for healing WAR just before they used upheavel, because who would plan around having a card that required 3 bad RNG rolls.

10/10, would convert Bole into again.

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Originally Posted by Reyna_Balmore

Would having a 4.x AST and SCH, with 5.x WHM have been desirable and functional today?

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That's basically the same state the healers were in in 4.x.

I won't say that WHM wasn't improved from 4.x, but if 4.x SCH and AST was retained, those changes would not be good enough to make them any more desirable than they were then.

As far as changes to AST; I was screaming for them prior to ShB, and I am pretty silent about them now. It doesn't mean I'm content, I'm just kind of waiting to see what they do with it in these upcoming patches. I know I don't want the old card system back, but the flow of the new system is a bit whacky right now. It is still a solid healer, but the card mechanic needs more work. AST's APM is really high, and if there has been any change I've asked for is for this to be reduced. I actually wouldn't mind if draw times were increased, but the cards themselves to have far more impact.

They seem to be placing more abilities on the GCD for jobs that had a high APM like NIN and SMN, but also making them stronger. If they follow that trend with AST, the changes could be interesting. I am at least a little hopeful for AST mains.

Yes, but with 5.0 Whm now and with 4.0 Ast / Sch, I'd believe would be satisfactory.