Enrage timer raid design is causing all the problems

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Originally Posted by TaiyouSeishin

Hm my bad, i thought that meant you looked at raiding in wow and said not for you. But as for world first, that only applied to heroic end boss of a raid, and no, it wasnt always dps checks, bosses like Sinestra didnt live as long as they did just because of that. The groups had to get through the rest of the raid first. Sometimes it was the "soft enrage" sometimes the fight went too long, so healers ran out of mana. Sometimes it WAS a dps check. If a raid dropped tomorrow, the heroic world first would often take almost a month to be achieved, by hardcore prog raiding guilds.

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Method has cleared every raid on the mythic (heroic is no longer the hardest difficulty) in less than 2 weeks of release for like the past 2 xpacs. And saying FF has 1 fight style is like saying Arthas is the same as Lootship, both are just don't stand in bad and dps(same as FF), however mechanics that you praise in one game exist in FF, like pass diseases (Arthas, but it's an Eden savage mechanic as well), dance to avoid aoes as a group (frostmourne phase for arthas and eden orb phase) with the dps check on top (killing adds on arthas before they stack up in number). I get you think that FF is a one trick for raiding but the only way I can see that applying is if you don't do savage or are just oblivious to the mechanics. It's just in FF almost every mechanic is a oneshot, which makes it feel the homogeneous.

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Originally Posted by Nessiae

Method has cleared every raid on the mythic (heroic is no longer the hardest difficulty) in less than 2 weeks of release for like the past 2 xpacs. And saying FF has 1 fight style is like saying Arthas is the same as Lootship, both are just don't stand in bad and dps(same as FF), however mechanics that you praise in one game exist in FF, like pass diseases (Arthas, but it's an Eden savage mechanic as well), dance to avoid aoes as a group (frostmourne phase for arthas and eden orb phase) with the dps check on top (killing adds on arthas before they stack up in number). I get you think that FF is a one trick for raiding but the only way I can see that applying is if you don't do savage or are just oblivious to the mechanics. It's just in FF almost every mechanic is a oneshot, which makes it feel the homogeneous.

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Its the oneshot that is the issue. And the dps check itself that becomes more of the focus that is the issue. I remember Saurfang being a dps/gear check even in normal, i dont remember deathwhisper being one. I remember festergut being a dps check, but i dont remember rotface being on. Even in heroic.

The reason i feel they added mythic is mainly because they made heroic easier (certainly felt that way) and im not saying there ARENT mechanics in ff14, just seems to be something you either cheese, or not care as much as you do the dps check part.

Then again, only savage is considered endgame in this one, regular is just something anyone can do. Kinda like RF in WoW wherease regular, was more endgameish to those of the semi casuals. *shrug* either way its kinda what all games geared towards.

(Back in Cataclysm, Sinestra the heroic final boss in BoT took over a month before the first group downed it, if mythic is done in less than 2 weeks now, WoW disappoints me)

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Originally Posted by TaiyouSeishin

Its the oneshot that is the issue. And the dps check itself that becomes more of the focus that is the issue. I remember Saurfang being a dps/gear check even in normal, i dont remember deathwhisper being one. I remember festergut being a dps check, but i dont remember rotface being on. Even in heroic.

The reason i feel they added mythic is mainly because they made heroic easier (certainly felt that way) and im not saying there ARENT mechanics in ff14, just seems to be something you either cheese, or not care as much as you do the dps check part.

Then again, only savage is considered endgame in this one, regular is just something anyone can do. Kinda like RF in WoW wherease regular, was more endgameish to those of the semi casuals. *shrug* either way its kinda what all games geared towards.

(Back in Cataclysm, Sinestra the heroic final boss in BoT took over a month before the first group downed it, if mythic is done in less than 2 weeks now, WoW disappoints me)

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Specifically Deathwhisper was one, just the adds were the check, if they piled up you wiped. I feel like what you call cheese isn't actually cheese. Fights are designed with tanks being able to invuln a single mechanic or 2 over the course if a fight. Cheese would be stacking cleaver on E2S so that dodging the imps was easy. I also don't see any skill expression with healers just spamming heals out because raid dmg is high, if anything there is more skill expression in preemptive shielding that is prevalent in FF allowing healers to maximize their gcd usage for efficiency. You can clear a boss by being reactive (wow style healing) or proactive (sch style healing). Just one is more efficient.

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Originally Posted by Nessiae

Specifically Deathwhisper was one, just the adds were the check, if they piled up you wiped. I feel like what you call cheese isn't actually cheese. Fights are designed with tanks being able to invuln a single mechanic or 2 over the course if a fight. Cheese would be stacking cleaver on E2S so that dodging the imps was easy. I also don't see any skill expression with healers just spamming heals out because raid dmg is high, if anything there is more skill expression in preemptive shielding that is prevalent in FF allowing healers to maximize their gcd usage for efficiency. You can clear a boss by being reactive (wow style healing) or proactive (sch style healing). Just one is more efficient.

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Deathwhisper was hard to fail even as a pug tho, soft enrage of the adds not withstanding, the tanking add could have been done by a melee Shammy (and often was). Tho i find the healcheck boss of ICC to be very fun...

Supoose tho, that some people find that endgame only comprises of the last set of difficulty to suck. WoW used to have more layers, as even normal raids were "endgame".

Tho tbh, by the time i left WoW, saw raids in SWTOR, and what the endgame of GW2 looked like, im practically not stary eyed over raiding anymore anyway. Ill do savage/extreme (no real desire to do ultimate) if i got some friends wanting to go. But looking at the vids and trying some fights (not this tier yet). Heard es1 and 4 are fun, not sure if i want to do es3 if i start in the current tier...

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Originally Posted by TaiyouSeishin

Deathwhisper was hard to fail even as a pug tho, soft enrage of the adds not withstanding, the tanking add could have been done by a melee Shammy (and often was). Tho i find the healcheck boss of ICC to be very fun...

Supoose tho, that some people find that endgame only comprises of the last set of difficulty to suck. WoW used to have more layers, as even normal raids were "endgame".

Tho tbh, by the time i left WoW, saw raids in SWTOR, and what the endgame of GW2 looked like, im practically not stary eyed over raiding anymore anyway. Ill do savage/extreme (no real desire to do ultimate) if i got some friends wanting to go. But looking at the vids and trying some fights (not this tier yet). Heard es1 and 4 are fun, not sure if i want to do es3 if i start in the current tier...

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I mean all primals are generally a bit easier, and considered end game. Potato potaaaaaaato. Point being at least in one small regard we do have an alternative form of endgame that isnt quite standard savage difficulty. additionally dont forget 24 mans. none of those are dps checks directly and people still wipe all the time. there is potential for endgame, of that nature in FFXIV, just not a lot of 24 man teams that compete in it.

Thats not to say 24 mans are hard by any means, but they certainly could be made more competitive and more interesting if both the playerbase and devs decided it.

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Originally Posted by Taranok

The biggest DPS problem was Alexander 3. HW's raid design was so tight that it nearly destroyed the FFXIV raiding community. Halicarnassus wasn't nearly as bad as Gordian and Midan. That said, E2S' DPS check is legitimately overtuned right now and needs to be brought down. Not much, but a bit. The design is fine, the health is not..

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The DPS check is fine. Stop getting hit by the zubats. That damage down is 50% for every stack. It essentially gives you Brick of Death for thirty seconds.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

I'm curious as to how tight the ES4 DPS check is vs. ES3 because I'm having doubts that the rampant exclusion of "non-meta" classes like NIN and DNC in PF groups is really that necessary.

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Titan's DPS requirement is roughly 76,000. About 5,000 above Leviathan. People excluding Ninja or Dancer are, bluntly stated, morons. They're looking at their parse in-game and thinking that's the actual damage both jobs contribute in lieu of how FFlogs now prioritizes rDPS. Dancer, for example, is nearly dead even with Bard.

What I find ironic is if you were going to lock out jobs based on low DPS. You would be better off saving a spot for Monk and Black Mage. Monk utterly demolishes Samurai and Ninja. And Black Mage does the same against Red Mage and Summoner. As noted above, Dancer barely trails even Machinist. Meanwhile, Black Mage and Monk are upwards of 1,000 higher than their counterparts; Dragoon notwithstanding.

we're all effectively min ilvling things right now. things will change in a few weeks when people start getting their 460 weapons and even more so if they're clearing E3S and can get a wpn upgrade item to make it 470.

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Originally Posted by TaiyouSeishin

Its a shame you didnt raid in WoW, some fights werent dps checks at all, just mechanic intensive.

As for clears in this game... if we are talking mathmatics, It was never mathematically impossible, just mathmatically harder. Just some classes felt they were more a hinderance than a help.

There is nothing wrong with 2 games that design raids differently. But WoW had more than one design type (at least in its prime), where as ff14 has.... really 1 now.

Nothing wrong with you being happy that all raiding to you is dps checks, but there is nothing wrong with the opinion that enrage timers on everything holds back raid design either.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Some people like the dps crunch with an add-possible-wipe phase in the middle. Some dont.

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Thanks for very nicely summarising my point! For all the people saying that DPS enrage is a fine mechanic, i don't disagree! And I am not asking for things to be "easier", just "more variety".

Raid design as of now, no matter how "different" they are, still focus mostly on (1) avoid death, (2) predictable aoe heals and tank busters, (3) maximum uptime. While I think some fights can follow this theme, from a healer's perspective, I find the fights to become rather stale fast as you can see in the formula of 1,2 and 3, healers deal with (2) occasionally, and for (3), press 1 button now. If there were more variety of raid designs e.g. low levels of healing is constantly needed, healers would need to manage mana / healing (e.g. cure being the go-to spell rather than just cure 2 / solace during busters).

From a DPS perspective, having a variety of "things to kill" including multi-boss fights (which has not been implemented before afaik), would also go a long way for different classes to shine and strategise their optimum playstyle.

To be fair, enrage timer design wouldn't be a problem if the classes were actually balanced.

The melee classes and BLM should NOT be so far above anything else, it's ridiculous.

The only hard DPS "check" fight anyone might be hitting is E2S and that is more so of can you dodge heads during Quetas phase than just being good at DPSing. Leviathan? Its an entire party wide mechanic check, yes the DPS requirement is tight if you are near the minimum ilevel but most of the mechanics are full team wipes rather than single target screw ups.
Titan... Titan is a marathon fight, its clearly made to be a 'training mode' for Ultimate and that is something we honestly needed. Omega wasn't that hard besides just "Hello World" but once you got it down the fight was really straightforward.
If you are somewhat decent at keeping uptime and understanding your job then you shouldn't have any issues with DPS checks unless its week 1-3 and you are on the 3rd or 4th fight already.
If you are going to blame your healers for not doing enough dps... well that dpeends if they aren't doing a bare minimum of casting DPS spells when no one is taking damage, you don't need to be a 'pro' at managing your heals and DPS... you just need to be competant.
Tanks....
as a Tank main there is almost no reason why a tank shouldn't be dealing a good amount of damage. Besides GNB none of the tanks rotations are difficult or very intensive so you should be doing adequate damage during the fight. All you need to know is "what do I need to do for X mechanic" and "tankbuster/cooldown management". There is very little thought that you need to do about that once you experiment with cooldowns spaced out. No excuses for tanks not DPSing anymore, tank stance no longer hits your personal DPS and you shouldn't need to even worry about hate. This isn't SB anymore where tanks can hide behind "hate management" or "tank stance". In SB bad tanks sat in tank stance the whole fight, you are a blue DPS, focus on what you need to do, then once you know those requirements.... think like a DPS.