Bard in FF14 is so much like Hunter without Pet in Ragnarok Online

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Originally Posted by Selig07

I only started playing FFXIV a few weeks ago, so I could be wrong about this but... From what I've seen there is no point in playing Bard. They don't offer the group utility anymore and do less ranged DPS than a Machinist.

I foolishly watched a video that was pre-Shadowbringers and thought, "a ranged team utility class! Sing me up!" After leveling a Bard for a few days I then read more about htem and saw that was gutted and all that was left was a ranged DPS. Figured that would be ok I guess... I don't care for pure DPS classes but let's see how it goes. I then started to noticed Machinist are much better at rDPS than Bard.

So aside from just enjoying the "style" of the job... What is the point of playing Bard now? If you want ranged DPS, play Machinist, if you want group support, play Dancer. Am I wrong the think this?

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BRD still has group utility from Battle Voice and Wardens' Paean and they're also better at dealing AoE damage.

They're definitely harder to play due to their rotation being dynamic with a heavy RNG component, while MCH has no RNG whatsoever now and follows a very static rotation for the most part.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

BRD still has group utility from Battle Voice and Wardens' Paean and they're also better at dealing AoE damage.

They're definitely harder to play due to their rotation being dynamic with a heavy RNG component, while MCH has no RNG whatsoever now and follows a very static rotation for the most part.

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Every 3 min that you yourself don't get buff and 20% DH for 15 sec don't do much.

Also for Warden Pean, it's on a single target with barely any use in Raid because most of the boss debuff or aliment cannot be removed often time. This has been the case since 2.0.

So don't over-exaggerate our utility much. It's near non-existent.

I suspect we didn't get any Bard changes because the devs want to see how the remaining Bards fare this raid tier. We have a history of the slightest change skyrocketing us into broken tier, so it kind of makes sense to wait a bit longer. Touch our proc rates or give us charges on Bloodletter/Refulgent especially, and who knows how much it'll push up our damage output in actual practice.

Even as useless as most people might think of Bard now, I daresay the top level Bards that remain are likely still over-performing beyond SE's expectations.

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Originally Posted by SaitoHikari

I suspect we didn't get any Bard changes because the devs want to see how the remaining Bards fare this raid tier. We have a history of the slightest change skyrocketing us into broken tier, so it kind of makes sense to wait a bit longer. Touch our proc rates or give us charges on Bloodletter/Refulgent especially, and who knows how much it'll push up our damage output in actual practice.

Even as useless as most people might think of Bard now, I daresay the top level Bards that remain are likely still over-performing beyond SE's expectations.

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I get it, but all they have to do is.

1) Bring back FR with instant cast.
2) Put FR in place of Apex Arrow. They didn't even bother rescale it.
3) Once three songs are played in cycle, give buffs to whole party DH% for 20 sec.
4) Change BV into DET% from DH% at 120 sec instead of 180.
5) Nature's mine cooldown reverted back to SB.

That's all they have to do.

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Originally Posted by TcomJ

I get it, but all they have to do is.

1) Bring back FR with instant cast.
2) Put FR in place of Apex Arrow. They didn't even bother rescale it.
3) Once three songs are played in cycle, give buffs to whole party DH% for 20 sec.
4) Change BV into DET% from DH% at 120 sec instead of 180.
5) Nature's mine cooldown reverted back to SB.

That's all they have to do.

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Did you really think this through?

1) Foe Req: Well, okay.
2) It takes about 80 seconds to cycle through all three songs. 1/4 DH buff uptime is pretty overkill.
3) Determination buff on top of the above at 120 seconds is even more overkill
4) Nature's Minne: Well, okay.

But really, going off of your suggestions, I imagine that depending on percentages, Bard party contribution could easily pass Dancer (who is mostly focused on a single target, and whose contribution sinks like a rock if their dance partner dies at any point), considering these are all party-wide. It's worth noting that today, most DPS classes only have one buff/debuff that affects party members. Asking for Bard to have 3/4 with such short cooldowns in this new environment is something that SE won't do.

(Also, I mean no offense, but saying 'that's all they have to do' and then listing 5 steps is something I found hilarious.)

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Originally Posted by SaitoHikari

Did you really think this through?

1) Foe Req: Well, okay.
2) It takes about 80 seconds to cycle through all three songs. 1/4 DH buff uptime is pretty overkill.
3) Determination buff on top of the above at 120 seconds is even more overkill
4) Nature's Minne: Well, okay.

But really, going off of your suggestions, I imagine that depending on percentages, Bard party contribution could easily pass Dancer (who is mostly focused on a single target, and whose contribution sinks like a rock if their dance partner dies at any point), considering these are all party-wide. It's worth noting that today, most DPS classes only have one buff/debuff that affects party members. Asking for Bard to have 3/4 with such short cooldowns in this new environment is something that SE won't do.

(Also, I mean no offense, but saying 'that's all they have to do' and then listing 5 steps is something I found hilarious.)

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Cycle through songs is 90 sec, and BV is already 180 sec cooldown with DH% that Bard player itself don't get the buff. You have to play 3 songs to get one party wide buff, not constantly get buff for entire 90 sec. The % and duration can be adjusted accordingly obviously.

Also, both DH and Det will never surpass direct damage buff and crit buff on other jobs. So 120sec is fair.

Stacking buff, should ask DNC about that. Because if you read the buff synergy abilities for each class, DNC has like 5-6 of them over all and 3 of them are already partywide. And they are the new job, why the fuck do Bard has to lose our things for a new job anyway.

The thing that makes me hesitant to really go with your suggestions, and I say this as an Ultimate cleared Bard, is that I've noted that raid teams are already talking about ditching Dancer in general and taking Bard for progression/speedkill. The reasoning being that Dancer contribution is only as good as the rest of the party's performance, and their personal DPS is too low for their support to make up for it. Indeed, data from a certain site suggested that overall, Bard total contribution actually outpaced Dancer total contribution, and we came dangerously close to touching Machinist contribution anyway.

All this, despite the supposed newbie trap clunkiness of Bard (not having Bloodletter stacks even though we lose so many procs in dungeons while AoEing in Mage's Ballad, Apex Arrow's wonky tooltip and that it feels bad to use in general, Refulgent not having stacks when there are situations where it would double-proc, especially when it's time to Iron Jaws) and the gutting of our support.

I imagine THAT is probably the real reason why all three ranged DPS didn't really get any changes this tier besides a small adjustment for MCH. The devs want to see how all three ranged perform relative to each other in a serious raid tier, before committing to any major adjustments so early.

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Originally Posted by TcomJ

Cycle through songs is 90 sec

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Wrong. Your song rotation is 80 seconds: 30-30-20 with only deviating in very niche, usually fight-specific instances. Normal rotation is to clip the last 10 seconds of Army's to re-enter Minuet the moment RS comes off cooldown.

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Stacking buff, should ask DNC about that. Because if you read the buff synergy abilities for each class, DNC has like 5-6 of them over all and 3 of them are already partywide. And they are the new job, why the fuck do Bard has to lose our things for a new job anyway.

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What? DNC doesn't have 3 buffs that are raid-wide. It has Standard Finish, which is 100% uptime on 1 person, and Technical Finish, which is 20s of +5% damage for the entire party every 120s. The only other party-wide they have are:
- Shield Samba, which is the same as Troubadour
- Curing Waltz, if people stack for it within the 3y radius around the DNC/their partner; it heals for 200 potency on the DNC and their partner, so 400 if stacked
- Improvisation, which is used ONLY during downtime as it requires the DNC to not move a la Meditation on SAM (and it's a healing potency buff, not a damage buff)

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Originally Posted by TcomJ

And Bard in Ragnarok Online is way more of a Bard than Shadowbringer's Bard....
Just saying.

https://irowiki.org/wiki/Bard

Isn't this a JRPG fantasy game or is it becoming lazy like WoW on the job design?

SE, you were so close in Stormblood, so close to get it right. What a pity.

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Brd & DnC were soooo great in RO - I always hoped for combo-skills in FF14 as well, Brds deserve to keep their utility, raping them was super silly... They should remove Trick Attack from Ninja and give a similar skill to Brd -> than introduce combos like in RO - Brd songs could increase DnC dances fe. u could play with job traits as well. There are so many ways to keep Brd supportive instead of killing his lore for another cls...

Ragnarok Online did it 1000 times better... at least in this regard SE could learn a thing or two of oldschool mmos... Ninja could get a touch of Assassin Cross as well give them an Enchant Poison buff in return for TA.

Edit: did u play on chaos or loki? and do u miss a game mode like War of Emperium just like i do? :P

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Originally Posted by Neela

Brd & DnC were soooo great in RO - I always hoped for combo-skills in FF14 as well, Brds deserve to keep their utility, raping them was super silly... They should remove Trick Attack from Ninja and give a similar skill to Brd -> than introduce combos like in RO - Brd songs could increase DnC dances fe. u could play with job traits as well. There are so many ways to keep Brd supportive instead of killing his lore for another cls...

Ragnarok Online did it 1000 times better... at least in this regard SE could learn a thing or two of oldschool mmos... Ninja could get a touch of Assassin Cross as well give them an Enchant Poison buff in return for TA.

Edit: did u play on chaos or loki? and do u miss a game mode like War of Emperium just like i do? :P

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Yes gimme dat EDP!
And Soul Breaker while were at it, a kind of Meteor Assault i already got xD
And please some usable Katars (i cried when i saw monks having em...absolutly illfit for monks animations)