DANCER lowest dps in game? why

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Originally Posted by dragoelete

most of the people who have posted here have stated they dont want it to be top pdps but they want themm to at least be on par or a bit behind mch in rdps meaning combined pdps and buff dps.

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This. I'm 100% ok with my pDPS being exactly where it is. I just want my "total contribution" to be competitive with other jobs of the same role. Typically the point of playing a support class is you are someone willing to sacrifice pDPS because the rDPS increase from your buffs combined with your pDPS ("total contribution") exceeds the DPS of a pDPS only class.

For example: I want the balance to be such that a comp of 3 MCH and 1 DNC is higher total dps than a comp of 4 MCH even if that means the DNC pDPS is 2k behind all of the MCH because his rDPS contribution is 2.5-3k.

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Originally Posted by SwarleyMcSwarls

snip.

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Not really i have tested this. On titania ex when partnered with monk i produced roughly 7 saber dances before she cast midsummers night dream. With the samurai it was roughly 3 that a 600 potency each saber dancer. It is a big difference and will effect over all dps more if the person partnering the dancer can give them more Esprit gain.

Also partnering the monk.... im gonna pass this to my partner as he can explain it better.

As monk you are literally the only crit reliant class in the game. Getting those 20% off devilment from dancer gives you a bigger boost then any other class. Monk also beeing the clasd with lowest gcd makes it a good pick for dancer too. Sure those 5% are good for any class, but overall dps differences are about 1k in total, between all dps classes, so we are talking 50-100 difference here.

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Originally Posted by khalidalawar

why is dancer so undertuned, because it can buff others?.. black mage with 12,500 dps and dancer with 8700 dps?? really?... dont get me wrong i love playing dancer, but alot of groups dont ask for a dancer for its underwhelming dps... they dont seem to care about the buffs... why do i always end up with under tuned jobs..

A job balance is required please

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Thing about a support job is that good raid groups shine with them and bad raid groups sucks with them. Example ninja knowing when to use trick attack and during it when everyone cooldowns are up to maximize the damage out put or not doing with when mechanics are really bad. So same thing with dancer. I would say right now most dancers don’t know how to be good dancers yet, (I mean the job only came out 2 weeks ago)
But you can’t have the best of all worlds, you can’t be able to buff everyone in the raid, interrupt, be range, and have damage like a black mage or even a red mage

I don't think DNC needs more DPS, but I absolutely believe it needs more consistent DPS. It feels pretty bad getting 8k one run, then 7.2k another one for something that is completely and utterly beyond your control.

Like, when people ask what DPS BLM can pull, it's usually replied with 12k. When someone asks DNC, it's more like 7-8k depending on how bad your luck is. Crafting is already infested with RNG, why does a combat class need to be as well?

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Originally Posted by Tryzn

Thing about a support job is that good raid groups shine with them and bad raid groups sucks with them. Example ninja knowing when to use trick attack and during it when everyone cooldowns are up to maximize the damage out put or not doing with when mechanics are really bad. So same thing with dancer. I would say right now most dancers don’t know how to be good dancers yet, (I mean the job only came out 2 weeks ago)
But you can’t have the best of all worlds, you can’t be able to buff everyone in the raid, interrupt, be range, and have damage like a black mage or even a red mage

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Buuutttt I chose dancer as my class because it's new and shiny and I want it to always be the best I want it to do everything, and have all glamors I want easy but complex rotations and I wanna buff everyone and myself and I want a instant kill button that overrides the game because I am a dancer and it's my class and I PAY for the GAME reee


Shrug

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Originally Posted by Kogekigami

Not really i have tested this. On titania ex when partnered with monk i produced roughly 7 saber dances before she cast midsummers night dream. With the samurai it was roughly 3 that a 600 potency each saber dancer. It is a big difference and will effect over all dps more if the person partnering the dancer can give them more Esprit gain.

Also partnering the monk.... im gonna pass this to my partner as he can explain it better.

As monk you are literally the only crit reliant class in the game. Getting those 20% off devilment from dancer gives you a bigger boost then any other class. Monk also beeing the clasd with lowest gcd makes it a good pick for dancer too. Sure those 5% are good for any class, but overall dps differences are about 1k in total, between all dps classes, so we are talking 50-100 difference here.

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Saying "I tested this" versus people running simulators to actually math out the gains isn't really proving a point. Also, you're saying monk is attacking more than twice the speed of samurai with those numbers, and monks are spending 20 out of every 90s with just +5% atk speed, and the other 70s at +20% atk speed. While samurai sits at a constant +13%. So not 2 1/3 times the amount of attacks unless one person just isn't hitting buttons. Which means that person isn't doing the most damage in your party. So they definitely should not be your dance partner.

Monk is one of the best dance partners, but it is still dependent on how much damage that person is doing. If you have people on different classes far outperforming the monk in your party, yielding an extra forbidden chakra isn't going to make up the difference. I will agree with you in that if all things are equal, monk is probably your best choice (because of the crit synergy and high personal damage). But don't just be automatically partnering every monk you are partied with if you are trying to be optimal with the dancer buffs.

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Originally Posted by KaiSunstrider

The math has been done on multiple other posts. Technical step = 5% for 20sec/120 secs = 0.83% raid dps increase. Average raid dps is 60k. This equates to technical finish averaging about a 500 dps increase. Avg BLM is pulling 10,700 if considering all BLMs have dancer partners then 535 dps of that belongs to the dancer. DNC buffs in total equate on average to 1000 extra dps. So that 8.7k is really 9.7k but still way behind other classes if you also factor in their raid contributions as well.

I'm sorry, but I dont see how you get that a 5% dps buff can jump a BLM up 2k dps. At best a BLM that can pull 12k unbuffed would get an extra 700 dps because of you which is basically the 500-600 above from standard and 100 dps from technical. Dnc buffs aren't adding 2k dps to a single player from a 5% buff. 2k extra dps from closed position would require the BLM to be pulling around 38,000 dps.

TLDR- Dancer's total extra party contribution is on average only 1k dps in the standard party. 1.2k dps in high end parties. With them being 1k or more behind every other job, their buffs do not make up for this.

That being said, Square will make lots of tuning changes in the first couple of weeks. I would not expect us to stay at this performance level. Both NIN and DNC are due for some buffage.

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I can't bother reading the whole thread if this has been noticed before, but you didn't take into account that most buffs are used in the same windows and the buffs are more effective together than separate. This is very difficult to calculate though, so we should just see what raid parses show for similar party with or without dancer.