Do you feel empathy towards the Warriors of Darkness?

I can't really emphasize with the WoD much, yes that had a very horrible situation through only doing what they were told to do but at no point did they question "How do you know that our world will be absorbed next with the next calamity?" to Elidibus which means if their world wasn't rejoined would they keep causing calamities until it does (probably what Elidibus was after) at some point life would die out with all the calamities remaining so there wouldn't think be anything for the 1st shard's populace aether to go to, the WoD clung onto what they believed was their only hope their motive is sympathetic but their actions not so much.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

Where did they mention the role of [Zenos'] father or state of his mother?

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It's in his short story in the Chronicles of Light book, "The Hunt Begins."

Honestly I think I need more info on the characters.

Haven't seen the whole thread but have seen some confusion on how people could relate to villainous characters.

Understanding = just recognizing that someone sees themself as the hero of their own story and has reasons behind various choices they make. They're not doing things to be random or for the sake of being an obstacle in your life.

Compassion = when someone is in pain, you regret them feeling that pain and would see that change if possible.

Justification = believing that someone is making a correct and moral choice in light of their circumstances

You can understand and feel compassion for a villain without agreeing with them or finding them justified.

Warriors of Darkness, people have been bringing up the weird sadism they showed during the Heavensward fights. I don't currently have enough sense of how/why they reached a place where they did that to empathize--understanding + compassion.

I can speculate that the reason they spoke and acted they way they did was because of feeling trapped in an ugly situation and not wanting to face the reality of that situation. If that's the case, they might have been treating the WoL the way they would have treated a monster or primal because that was easier to stomach. Denial and such.

But thing is, this is speculation. Until more is shown about the Warriors of Darkness and their normal personalities, there's no real way of knowing.

Zenos (since people have been mentioning him) seriously reads like a poster child for Antisocial Personality Disorder to me. I'm not saying that for the sake of dropping a psych term or even with the assumption that devs sat down all "hmmm what mental condition should we attach here". I think it's as simple as there are real people who lack the capacity for empathy and end up feeling empty as a result. When they search for any way to feel something the adrenaline rush of violence, competition, and risk of failure can give them that. Not every person with Antisocial ends up going full-Zenos, but it's harder to manage in a healthy and functional way.

I might not relate to Zenos per se, but he makes perfect sense to me. IMO it's a shame that his life led him to the worst possibilities for himself, but of course he's not justified. I'm very curious how becoming Resonant will shape him, it's a weird and interesting concept and might act to sort of artificially instill empathy. Or he might have knowledge without empathy, or he might get overloaded and hate it. I do think he's a good villain regardless and it's exciting to see him because I find the guy interesting.

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Originally Posted by Jaywalker

I might not relate to Zenos per se, but he makes perfect sense to me. I do think he's a good villain regardless and it's exciting to see him because I find the guy interesting.

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He is a good villain.

He's also a breath of fresh air. Since his motives are pure and entirely selfish. He wants to feel alive by fighting someone of equal worth (Though, these days he's found himself in a sidequest to reclaim his body...)

There's not some super ridiculous master plan where he becomes the Emperor of the universe, he's not trying to resurrect some ancient god, he's not trying to create a "Super race" by rejoining all the worlds, he's not being seduced or influenced by any Ascians promise of power...

No, he just wants to find someone worthy to fight. He cares little about the Garlean Empire outside of it serving as a tool to enable him to find people to fight as it expands, as well as allowing him to have a status that enables him to collect new swords. He's also has such little investment in anything other than his own personal goals that he's unlikely to end up having a redemption arc where he becomes a good guy (Like Yotsuyu and Fordola had).

He's a simple, straightforward villain. Whom displays power that rivals and bests the WoL.

Basically, he's a Player Character from a typical RPG. Getting bored when farming trash mobs and just wanting to get to fighting bosses and getting new loot xD

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Originally Posted by Kalise

Basically, he's a Player Character from a typical RPG. Getting bored when farming trash mobs and just wanting to get to fighting bosses and getting new loot xD

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Lol omg that's actually super accurate. First thing he does after beating mobs or bosses is check the loot. Rare loot = cue the final fantasy victory music.

Based on how casually he was sifting through other people's property as EleZenos, he prob wouldn't hesitate about wandering into houses, breaking all pots in sight, then walking out with any valuables.

(I agree with your other points too, it's refreshing that his motives are very human and selfish! Sometimes it's fun to have a completely unrepentant, badass villain.)

Honestly.... abouslutely not, hell I hope to fight them again sometime during 5.X. They got off waaay to easy if you ask me, need to get humbled... HARD.. except for the Mage of Darkness.... dude was just following orders

(yeah yeah I know their world was dying/ being taken over, but they made a deal with the devil's secretary so fuck em)

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Originally Posted by Kalise

Basically, he's a Player Character from a typical RPG. Getting bored when farming trash mobs and just wanting to get to fighting bosses and getting new loot xD

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That's exactly why I can't stand him. He has no depth, the sum total of his character begins and ends with just "I want to fight strong guys." Villains don't need to be larger than life or master schemers, but I'd appreciate characters whose personality is more than something that flat. I've come to expect better of Final Fantasy villains than someone as basic as Zenos, with the likes of Kuja and Seymour for example. Zenos is as low on the totem pole character-wise as the early early FF villains like Emperor Mateus and Cloud of Darkness.

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Originally Posted by Kalise

Making it kind of seem like the WoD's didn't really look into every option available before deciding "Lets go mess up the Source!" under instruction of an Ascian...

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Strictly speaking, as of right now even our character doesn't yet know that there is an option besides taking the fight to the Ascians and defeating them. We're just now finding out that our current plan is supposed to lead to ruin whether we win or lose...but even then, our main motivation for finding our way to the beacon the robed figure left for us isn't to become the Warrior of Darkness and redress the balance, but rather because it's our best lead to finding where the souls of our friends in the Scions have ended up.

We know where it's headed because we have meta knowledge that the character within the universe does not yet possess.

So I think it's a bit silly to suggest that all the WoD had to do was simply go look through "all of the options"...as if they had the luxury to do so AND the access to that information. They found themselves in a vulnerable state, feeling betrayed by fate after doing everything that had been asked of them and the world was still doomed...and doomed by their actions, no less. That's the exact kind of mental and emotional vulnerability the Ascians are keen to manipulate (remember Thancred's possession was when he was emotional and mentally exhausted, running himself to the bone for the sake of the Scions).

Tangentially regarding the Warriors of Darkness: I'm curious if we'll ever meet FFXIV versions of Diana*, Sol, Aigis, and Glaive, Alba, or other characters from the FF Dimensions** game? What with all the throwbacks to FF Tactics, FF3, and so on and so forth.

* I like her outfit and would like to have it for glamour
** Haven't played the game, only read the character wikis.

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So I think it's a bit silly to suggest that all the WoD had to do was simply go look through "all of the options"...as if they had the luxury to do so AND the access to that information. They found themselves in a vulnerable state, feeling betrayed by fate after doing everything that had been asked of them and the world was still doomed...and doomed by their actions, no less. That's the exact kind of mental and emotional vulnerability the Ascians are keen to manipulate (remember Thancred's possession was when he was emotional and mentally exhausted, running himself to the bone for the sake of the Scions).

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Pretty much this. It was all explained by Arbert himself in the video I've strewn around a few times. Ascians were the enemy, the WoD's essentially being WoL's like us and doing exactly what we've been doing up until now, except they were undeniably victorious in the name of Hyde... And then realized too late what would happen if either side (light or dark) won the battle. With practically unavoidable doom on their doorstep, the only choice that remained was to treat with the Ascians to redress the balance and hope that this would save their world/shard, bringing darkness back into power. Yes, some may not have liked their smugness about it, but I don't really see any other way of incorporating this angle (in such a small space) without it. The alternative would have required a lot more time to flesh out the characters and have a more 50-50 'grey area' approach to it, but for the time-frame we got, I thought it was well executed. You're not meant to like them (initially). They're doing dark shenanigans with no care for our shard. Then you realize why they're doing it, and that we're going down the same road, and the fact that they were nothing like what we saw at the time // what drove them to those actions.

I empathize because they are basically a means of seeing what would happen if we didn't encounter this revelation and just kept serving Hyde without question (like we've always done up until that exact quest-line). Their fate would be ours - and in realizing this, ShB is happening. In short, they were decent people on the side of light just like we are (soon to be past-tense now that we're becoming WoD's). "They did everything right, everything that was asked of them" - and their reward was doom.

Note that this does not mean I would have allowed their shenanigans, nor had any doubts about the simple fact that they absolutely needed to be stopped - but I can sympathize with the reasons that pushed them towards the actions they were taking. Simple as that.