5.0 leaks (that I don't believe)

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Originally Posted by Kalise

You'd note that in my later posts I mention it would be easier to make Arcanist into a Healer class that then becomes Scholar.

Rather than having Arcanist be DPS and then randomly become a healer when it becomes Scholar.

Since, really, all that Arcanist is missing from the standard level 1-30 Healer kit is an AoE heal on level 10. After addressing that, it's simply a case of swapping the stat they use from INT to Mind and the Role Actions.

With the "Major" problem being messing with Carbuncles to make their "Upgrade" into Fairies make more sense.

Either way, I don't see it being particularly likely that they separate either job from the class. It seems like an awful lot of work for little gain at this point.

The benefits of divorcing one of the jobs from the class are very few.

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I have a question. What would you do for smn's pets pre 45? Without carbuncles, that means just ifrit until 40 for Titan. No tank or ranged dps pet what you want leveling and solo duties before that level? Do you realize how useful topaz carbuncle is when in the open world alone for summoner? Changing the level you get them to lower doesn't work, unless the trials were also moved in the msq to be earlier so that isn't an option at all.

That's why smn and arc fit better in your theory of what you want to do. I also don't believe any of this as it would be in other places, not just a discord link in the OP's post.

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Originally Posted by Rosa_Frandlia

I have a question. What would you do for smn's pets pre 45?

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Nothing.

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Originally Posted by Rosa_Frandlia

Without carbuncles, that means just ifrit until 40 for Titan.

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Titan is at level 35.

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Originally Posted by Rosa_Frandlia

No tank or ranged dps pet what you want leveling and solo duties before that level?

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Ranged DPS? A ranged DPS pet is not particularly relevant for leveling/solo duties. Nothing hits hard enough to be a threat to pets natural AoE protection and thus warrant a rDPS pet.

Tank, is useful. But, it's only 5 levels of SMN to get through without it. Every other DPS in the game goes through 70 levels without one. I'm sure SMN's will manage a whole 5 levels.

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Originally Posted by Rosa_Frandlia

Do you realize how useful topaz carbuncle is when in the open world alone for summoner?

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Yes I do.

I also realize it's not so necessary as to need a change. It's a nice thing once you hit level 35 and do your job quest.

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Originally Posted by Kalise

Nothing.



Titan is at level 35.



Ranged DPS? A ranged DPS pet is not particularly relevant for leveling/solo duties. Nothing hits hard enough to be a threat to pets natural AoE protection and thus warrant a rDPS pet.

Tank, is useful. But, it's only 5 levels of SMN to get through without it. Every other DPS in the game goes through 70 levels without one. I'm sure SMN's will manage a whole 5 levels.



Yes I do.

I also realize it's not so necessary as to need a change. It's a nice thing once you hit level 35 and do your job quest.

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What about then in leveling roulette and you get a pre-30 dungeon? "I'm a summoner, but I have no summons" doesn't seem right. I know I wouldn't like that in leveling from 70-80 and getting Copperbell, Tam-tara, etc... and having no pet.

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Originally Posted by Rosa_Frandlia

What about then in leveling roulette and you get a pre-30 dungeon? "I'm a summoner, but I have no summons" doesn't seem right. I know I wouldn't like that in leveling from 70-80 and getting Copperbell, Tam-tara, etc... and having no pet.

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"I'm a Ninja, but I have no Ninjutsu"
"I'm a Tank, but I have no Tank Stance"
"I'm a Bard, but I have no Songs"
"I'm a Dragoon, but I have no Jumps"

It's not a particularly new thing for level sync'd jobs to miss core identities.

If it's really concerning, you can simply make the pets exist retroactively. Sort of like how level sync'ing on SCH/SMN now lets you keep your Fairy/Egi even if you go below level 30 when you actually unlocked them.

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Originally Posted by Rosa_Frandlia

What about then in leveling roulette and you get a pre-30 dungeon? "I'm a summoner, but I have no summons" doesn't seem right. I know I wouldn't like that in leveling from 70-80 and getting Copperbell, Tam-tara, etc... and having no pet.

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If smn because a unique and independant class they could simply...move the level at which you learn Summon III down, I dont see why it cant be accessed at a lower level and still be a quest reward... but yeah, most classes don't have their core identity abilities pre 30 so this isn't an issue for me.

It definitely seems to me like you're trying to jump through hoops to make ARC>SCH / SMN a thing, based on merely your own subjective tastes, when what we've got would seem to make ARC>SMN / SCH work much more simply and cleanly.

All this "Just rework Summoner to fit" is an entirely subjective viewpoint when you can just say "Rework Scholar to fit" which from what we know, is much more likely to happen because they're reworking Healers.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

It definitely seems to me like you're trying to jump through hoops to make ARC>SCH / SMN a thing, based on merely your own subjective tastes, when what we've got would seem to make ARC>SMN / SCH work much more simply and cleanly.

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I happen to disagree.

Based on the things I have mentioned. Mostly about how SMN doesn't really rely too heavily on the specifics of the ARC stuff it gains, while SCH has much more reliance on specifically the DoTs and Aetherflow as a mechanic.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

All this "Just rework Summoner to fit"

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I've not once said "Rework Summoner to fit"

If anything, that's what pro-ARC>SMN people are doing. They're talking about reworking SMN to fit into an ARC>SMN with some level of relevance. While then completely remaking Scholar.

I'm merely pointing out that, from levels of ease, ARC>SCH makes the most sense, as it requires the least actual reworking to accomplish. Given that the only new mechanics/additions that need to be incorporated are essentially just putting CD's onto SMN's stuff instead of using the Aetherflow gauge and maybe reworking Carbuncles while adding a level 10 AoE heal for ARC.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

is much more likely to happen because they're reworking Healers.

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I think it's much more likely that they're not going to do anything about ARC>SCH/SMN

Given that at no point have they mentioned anything about SCH being a problem outside of: Barrier vs HoT healing dichotomy doesn't work and SCH is too strong because of Fairy providing auto-heals.

So, unless they completely remove Fairies and thus entirely remake literally every single job quest and every piece of lore relating to Nymian Scholars, it's doubtful that they'll actually bother removing the job from the Arcanist class. As there is no need to.

If they were mentioning stuff like Aetherflow being a balance problem for SCH, then maybe you'd see them taken off the Arcanist class purely for that reason? Though, the easier alternative, would simply be to alter Arcanist so that it wasn't using Aetherflow.

I mean, given that most jobs don't get Job Gauges until level 30 or 50 it wouldn't be a huge deal to rework Arcanist to not have a job gauge, allowing for Summoner and Scholar to have unique Gauges that are not both based on ARC's Aetherflow.

"If anything, that's what pro-ARC>SMN people are doing. They're talking about reworking SMN to fit into an ARC>SMN with some level of relevance. "

But ARC already develops into SMN. Just as much as SCH.
Carbuncles upgrade into Egi's, we even have the Egi glamours to emphasize this.
Garuda is a straight up linear development of Emerald, a ranged magic DPS pet.
Titan is a direct linear progression of Topaz, a tank pet.

Eos and Selene bare no resemblance to the carbuncles in any sense. Visually or mechanically, they're healers not DPS, they don't have ranged/tank roles.
They're entirely different entities, the fairies are their own thing, found after the fact, whereas both Carbuncles and Egi's are aetheric manifestations created by the Arcanist/Summoner.

You don't have to rework SMN to fit it into ARC, it's already there. You don't have to twist anything out of shape to make a connection that's already there.
You have to twist things to separate them.

So do you twist up SMN to take it out of ARC, or do you do that to SCH?
If SCH is getting the rework... it's just common sense.

It sounds like you just don't want them to change SCH, but you don't care about them changing SMN or you want them to change SMN.
I'd like a SMN rework too, and I think SCH is in a pretty good place with aetherflow, but that's not influencing my viewpoint for this.


"So, unless they completely remove Fairies and thus entirely remake literally every single job quest and every piece of lore relating to Nymian Scholars, it's doubtful that they'll actually bother removing the job from the Arcanist class. As there is no need to."

Except that they have said in the past that they'd like to separate SCH and SMN, because they think it was a mistake, as it hinders balance between them.
And there's no reason at all why they'd need to erase fairies to do this. As I said, the fairies have nothing to do with the carbuncles.


"I mean, given that most jobs don't get Job Gauges until level 30 or 50 it wouldn't be a huge deal to rework Arcanist to not have a job gauge, allowing for Summoner and Scholar to have unique Gauges that are not both based on ARC's Aetherflow."

Why not?
Why not delay aetherflow until level 30, and why not make it a strictly SCH thing?
Then ARC>SMN gets something else, a more elaborate trance system or something.

See, it works both ways and can still support a separate SCH situation.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Carbuncles upgrade into Egi's, we even have the Egi glamours to emphasize this.

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That's a misnomer and based on gameplay mechanics only.

Carbuncles are never "Upgraded" into Egi's in the lore. We simply learn to summon Egi's independently, and then because SMN is arbitrarily linked to ARC, they end up replacing the 2 Carbuncle summon skills.

Hence why we even get Ifrit-Egi (Or Summon III) first, while not having a "Ruby Carbuncle" beforehand.

As far as the Egi glamour, that's merely talking about how due to being an entirely self created entity that we can form it in whatever shape we want and because the only other thing that player characters know how to summon is Carbuncles we can use that shape for Egi. Also note, that this is also a side-quest and thus non-canon and seems to be implemented more so to justify the gameplay addition (Much like that book in Gubal Library that talks about how the English client uses a numbering system for skills instead of suffixed names like "Fira", "Firaga" etc)

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Eos and Selene bare no resemblance to the carbuncles in any sense. Visually or mechanically, they're healers not DPS, they don't have ranged/tank roles.

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Yet by the same token as you mentioned Carbuncles "Upgrading" into Egi, Summon I and Summon II skills are "Upgraded" into being Eos and Selene respectively.

Thus, either this gameplay mechanic is lore relevant to both of the jobs or neither of them.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

They're entirely different entities, the fairies are their own thing, found after the fact, whereas both Carbuncles and Egi's are aetheric manifestations created by the Arcanist/Summoner.

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Fairies are still Arcanima created by the Summoner. The only difference is that Carbuncle, Egi and Demi are all mindless husks. While, Fairies, being the spell developed by the Nymian mages whom were very much about strategy and tactics, have a semblance of intelligence and of course, memory, which persists through specific summons that were tied to the soul crystals.

While neither Egi, Demi nor Carbuncles are tied to soul crystals and thus cannot have such persistent intelligence unless either ourselves or a future ARC/SMN develops such a spell.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

So do you twist up SMN to take it out of ARC, or do you do that to SCH?
If SCH is getting the rework... it's just common sense.

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Only if the SCH rework is actually aimed at doing this.

If not, then it's extra work to remove SCH from ARC than it is to remove SMN from ARC.

But again, this is all highly unlikely.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

It sounds like you just don't want them to change SCH, but you don't care about them changing SMN or you want them to change SMN.

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Then I guess you're not listening (Or rather reading)

Irregardless of my stance on SCH/SMN (Which, if you'd read my recent Summoner rework idea, you'd note actually DOES have the Summoner using Carbuncles and thus is even more tied to ARC)

I'm pointing out, that, objectively, IF for whatever reason, a decision is made where separating a job from Arcanist happens (Which I believe is highly unlikely) that separating SMN from ARC would be the easiest to do, ARC skills and mechanics are not as integral to SMN's kit as they are to SCH's.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Except that they have said in the past that they'd like to separate SCH and SMN, because they think it was a mistake, as it hinders balance between them.

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Yeah, and they've said many things in the past.

Doesn't mean they've done anything about them.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

And there's no reason at all why they'd need to erase fairies to do this. As I said, the fairies have nothing to do with the carbuncles.

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You know, unless you actually read the rest of what I wrote instead of clipping something out of context and going "There no reason for this hurr durr"

The part in which I talked about the upcoming "Healer rebalance" where they've stated they find SCH's Fairies (Which, gameplay wise are upgrades to Summon I and Summon II, the Carbuncle summons) to be the major part of SCH's imbalance.

Thus, logically speaking, if Fairies (Which come from Summon I and Summon II, the Carbuncle summons) are the problem with the balance and a splitting of Arcanist (Whom has Summon I and Summon II, the Carbuncle summons) from one of its jobs is on the cards... Then it would make sense to remove the Fairies from the equation and remove SCH from ARC (Albeit with the caveat that it would necessitate a complete retcon of the lore)

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Why not?
Why not delay aetherflow until level 30, and why not make it a strictly SCH thing?
Then ARC>SMN gets something else, a more elaborate trance system or something.

See, it works both ways and can still support a separate SCH situation.

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I don't get what you're trying to imply here?

Are you trying to prove something that I've literally stated and that you have literally quoted?

I mean, if they do rework ARC and remove the Aetherflow job gauge from it and allow SCH/SMN to then have unique gauges...

Then what's the purpose of removing either of the jobs from the class at that point?

They already both diverge on skills, with SMN getting further Ruin spells (Ruin III and Ruin IV) while SCH gets Broil instead... They can continue doing that to further differentiate other skills such as Bio and Miasma (In fact, SCH gets Miasma II while SMN gets Bio III and Miasma III)

Thus there's literally no need to go through the effort of splitting a job from the class.

It's just making the already low gains from doing the necessary work even lower.

So, why, when the dev team is already facing the issue of having lots of stuff to do but not having enough time to dedicate to the stuff, would they decide to put the time into not only alleviating the core concern with having the 2 jobs from the same class (All because of the job gauge that ARC gets early on then being adopted by both jobs) AND then do the unnecessary splitting of one of the jobs from ARC?

I feel like this SCH/SMN debate is going completely off topic, there are other threads to discuss that so let's not highjack this one when there is potential to talk about other stuff found in the original post.