[4.4 Discussion] "Change the Future"

You seem to be missing my point. None of that excuses what they're trying to inflict upon Hingashi. Rowena is an amusing character, though she's not a particularly pleasant person. Neither is Lolorito. They both benefit Eorzea immensely - and in Lolorito's case it's technically Ul'dah in particular that he cares for. They have both exploited the Warrior of Light for their own gain. It's now reaching a point where they - and certain others - are moving directly against the interests of foreign nations and actively sabotaging them.

Let's not beat around the bush. Let's speak hypothetically. If a mysterious island had arisen off of the coast of Eorzea and a foreign nation lay claim to it with the intention of using it to weaken Eorzea's trade do you think the Eorzeans would shrug it off and have no issue with such a move?

I do not think they would. I think they'd likely have Merlwyb and her fleet get involved.

In short, my main point is that Eorzea and Eorzean organisations seem to be more than willing to engage in imperialistic practices whilst crying foul when they are the ones subjected to them. Hence 'hubris'. They're due a rude awakening, I believe.

I still don't see Rowena and Lolorito's actions as being equivalent to Eorzea acting in an imperialistic way. They are individuals who happen to be Eorzean. We have an uneasy relationship with them at the best of time, and their actions don't represent the Alliance - but at the same time, the Alliance isn't going to reach halfway around the world just to stop them from setting up shop in a foreign country. That's the other country's business.

Yes, if a foreign country was doing it to Eorzea, they might rightfully intervene - but then in this case it's Hingashi that is fully entitled to strike at Rowena and EATC's dealings on Val, or claim the island for themselves since it's in their territory. And they have not.

Lolorito is hardly a small figure in the grand scheme of things and is effectively on an equal level to Nanamo when it comes to running their nation. Ul'dah is a member of the Eorzean Alliance - therefore anything it does reflects on the Eorzean Alliance as a whole. You should know by now that I'm very fond of morally grey elements in FFXIV's story. I don't oppose them. Yet if the Eorzean Alliance is going to push for reform then it needs to start looking closer to home and reigning in some of its own shady elements.

Lolorito has power, maybe as much as Nanamo, but he's not treated as her equal on official representing-the-country business.

And they've been trying to rein him in for ages. There's been a whole running plot thread about Raubahn and Nanamo's frustrations with not having authority over the Syndicate's shadier actions.

Yes, that's something that they've not been particularly effective at. It's also perfectly understandable that Lolorito acts the way that he does. He's one of the characters I find very interesting - far more so than either Nanamo or Raubahn. He's ruthless and manipulative...but he's a patriot with lines he will not cross. That doesn't change the fact that his actions reflect on Ul'dah and thus the rest of the Eorzean Alliance as a consequence. Or that the Warrior of Light - someone with the power to challenge literal deities - is having his power exploited to strengthen one nation and weaken another.

Hingashi does not deserve to be subjected to such abuse. Though as I mentioned earlier, I'm hoping that the Isle of Val will prove to be a lost cause and the trade exploit will not go ahead as the region will prove far too dangerous on a long term basis. I'd say that's pretty likely given that it needs to be a persistent zone so people can go and work on their relic weapons in the region.

There were a lot of lies running around in the story at the moment, and the Eorzeans are planning to add some more. The attack on Rabanastre was believed to be the Empire, but Ramza’s account throws it into question. Is Varis capable of pulling the story? Would the rebels have reason to when it has garnered them outside sympathy?

The Eorzeans are acting on the (reasonable) suspicion that Varis is puppeted, influenced, or working with the Ascians. His days as a leader may be numbered regardless, but we (the audience) are now seeing that the inefficiencies and delay of the counterattack that should have come since 4.0 not only has a source they’d not expect(the emperor himself), but another Ascian the Alliance does not know about. Imagine their surprise when they attempt to lop off the imperial family to sow division in the Garlean people, only for the event to unify them towards retaliation. Solus’s existence can throw a serious wrench in the assassination plot.

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Originally Posted by EdwinLi

All of this for the single goal of changing the future where our actions caused a Calamity because we follow our current path.

So many people are being removed so the future can change to prevent the original future from happening but what action did the WoL and Scion's influence cause that created this Calamity?

So what do you think happened that caused a Calamity in the original timeline where the WoL and Scions played their roles normally (where the voice never interfered nor had any influence on events) and who is the Voice trying to prevent this Calamity by change the present/past by removing the Scions from influencing WoL?

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The interesting part is, that they are not only talking about a calamity but twin dooms which sounds like Floods of Light and Darkness which is a bit strange because one cant happen when the other exists. Also why is the person or thing that took the scions soul able to do that now but never got themselves involved before that?

I believe that this is Zodiark talking because the WoD never had the power to call souls and we also reacted as if we did not know the voice otherwise we could have said that it was them. But I will remain skeptic if he is telling the truth. First if he can look into the future why did he not fight his banishment? Why did he never warn the Ascians?

So for me it makes it feel like he is taking away any scion that could be dangerous and leave us be with the hope that we will make mistakes and dont manage to create conflict in Garlemald. Because as we know, the Ascians needs Garlemald to create another calamity so any fights inside it or even the change of governments could destroy such plans. I just see no reason why such an action would create twin dooms. We would still have fights just on smaller sizes and even if peace could be throwing of the balances a bit, Hydaelyn is losing the war for quite some time so I cant see how this would create a flood of Light. (I mean freeing the Garleans of Ascian rule does not mean that the Ascians have to die) Also if that was truly the case what exactly should we do then? A straight war is bad because that would play into the hands of the Ascians and would create a calamity. Direct peace (if that is even possible) would just end in the same situation as changing the government.

So honestly I just dont see another way. We cant just stand by and let another calamity happen and let Eorzea or at least Ala Mhigo and Doma be destroyed. But seemingly the voice wants us to stop our plans and take out any scions that could be of great help. Then it talks about dooms without getting concret (reminds me of Elidibus and all his shallow talk) and maybe it wants us to stop doing things so that a calamity truly happens and thus Zodiark would be one step closer to getting back.

Also if time travel or talking to someone in the past is possible why did no one ever do that? (Next to Alexander who was more a closed time loop) I really hope that time travel will stay out of this because it often makes a story chaotic. If its only Zodiark then we would just have a deity that may just be afraid that our plan might be bad for him if we success and that may not even be able to truly look into the future.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

I'm starting to see a good deal of speculation that (for any number of a dozens reasons) His agents are acting against His will. I don't know what to believe, but I already went all in on #TeamHydaelyn so I'm going to ride this train until it crashes if for nothing but PRINCIPLE.

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This could at least explain why he would want to stop the Ascians and would give us a nice way to kill these Ascians without creating an imbalance. Because right now we are in the spot that we simply cant destroy each of them otherwise we would create a flood of light. What if Hydaelyn and Zodiark will work together at the end and continue to hold the balance by having their emissary take in too much Light or Darkness while the spoken races will just do their things on the worlds. (Because I still believe that we are alone quite able to create conflict) That way we finally wont have to kill any higher God but also solve the long conflict with the Ascians.

I also found it strange that Elidibus as an emissary and believer in balance is ready to kill us. How would that help the balance in the long run? We are as far as we know the last bastion against the Ascians. Take us out, have another calamity happen and having Garlemald rule the world and then suddenly you would have too much darkness on your hand because there would be nobody strong enough to stand against them.

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Originally Posted by Kallera

There were a lot of lies running around in the story at the moment, and the Eorzeans are planning to add some more. The attack on Rabanastre was believed to be the Empire, but Ramza’s account throws it into question. Is Varis capable of pulling the story? Would the rebels have reason to when it has garnered them outside sympathy?

Imagine their surprise when they attempt to lop off the imperial family to sow division in the Garlean people, only for the event to unify them towards retaliation. Solus’s existence can throw a serious wrench in the assassination plot.

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How are the Eorzeans adding more lies? They are in a way telling the people the truth because Zenos is not the real Zenos anymore. Also Ramza did state that Garlemald did indeed attack the city but that it at the same time also got quite the damage by something inside so that is not completely a lie either. (And the empire did strike back against Dalmasca when it tried to rose against them.)

I am also not sure how much trouble Solus can really cause. The old emporer is death, he did die of old age. So why would the people of Garlemald believe a word that he says? Wouldnt they be more angry at him for using them like that? We also dont really know how the people see Varis and his rule. Maybe a lot of them are not happy with it? We do at least know that there are opponents and that Elidibus needed a primal in Doma to show them that they are fighting for the right cause. This does not sound like a folk that is really behind its ruler. And if they then find out that Varis has worked with the Ascians and that their old emporer was one too..I just cant see how they would side with them. They are at war for so long, they probably have lost quite some people in the fights and if they also find out what they have done to others cities I am not sure if they will be happy.

Also is there a assassination plot? Because I do remember that this was one plan that they wanted to use but Thancred did state that this might not be enough since Zenos is still alive (and they do know that Zenos is used by an Ascian) Thats why they want to tell the people the truth about Zenos so that they will rebell against their government and thus give the other political group more power. And as we saw with Maxima that group truly wants peace.

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Originally Posted by EdwinLi

There is also a noticable event happening all over the world now where Aether is disappearing from the land. I can only assume this is part of the Calamity the Voice is trying to prevent that may have made the World complete devoid of Aether in the Future the Voice is from and thus difficult to support life to a point even Ascians regets their actions since they need a world of aether to support their God Zodiark. After all our World is the Main world and if it becomes lifeless then all sides of the conflict are doomed.

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It's possible I'm over simplifying this in my head, but I think there's a really easy explanation for why aether is weakening around the globe, and that is Y'Shtola's actions at the House of the Crooked Coin. If you take a land that is completely strangled off and starved of aether and basically open up the flood gate (in reverse?) to allow aether to flow into that part of the world, it will absorb any and all aether it can to normalize itself with the rest of the world. It's entirely possible that Eorzea was so rich in aether specifically because it had starved part of its own world of that resource making it more abundant in the areas it could appear.

It's possible we have to undo a lot of the actions we had just taken in order to prevent some of the other problems from occurring.

Y'shtola's actions at the House of the Crooked Coin did not cause the depleted aether in Othard or Eorzia. Y'shtola specifically brings up crystals loosing their aetheric charge before she and Hein even go to the Steppe.

Manipulating aether at the House of the Crooked Coin has a long and storied history. Y'shtola is simply the last person to manipulate the aether there and she's probably the most benevolent person to do it. Both in motive and in effect.

The first time aether is manipulated at the House of the Crooked Coin is all the way back in the 3rd Astral Era. Someone (and we have enough information to make a good guess of who it was; it's probably Amon or an Allagan scientist working with him) uses the crystal to stop the flow of all aether to the Burn. This makes the land lifeless and perfect for hacking off pieces of it and floating it using the crystal's aether. This happens sometime before the Allagan war with Mercydia ends as the lore book makes mention of experiments developed in Azys Lla being used in that war. Most importantly, the flow of aether of aether to the Burn is never restored.

The second time, the crystal is used to get Dalamud into orbit. Again, it's probably Amon (or people working with him) who does this. This is after the war with Mercydia. And still the aether to the Burn isn't restored.

After this, five thousand years and three Calamities go by. This entire time, the Burn has gone without aether. During this time, Solus comes across it and says this is what happens when too many primals get summoned. Yeah right.

The third (and probably last) time aether is manipulated at the House of the Crooked Coin is by Y'shtola. And it's specifically to restore the flow of aether to the Burn. She's finally fixing an imbalance in the world's aether that has been around for 5,000 years.

I'm not sure I'd call being denied overly aggressive tariffs by taking their trade elsewhere abuse to the nation or an act of national aggression when it's being done by non-government organizations. Tariffs go both ways as well, and given the class issues made present in the Samurai and some Kugane quests it could be that there's plenty Hingashi who want their own goods going out into the world as much as there are traders from without trying to get their wares in and being unable to by such economic stifling though that's heavy inference.

They're not wrong to monitor and try to control the flow of imported goods, though, and I don't think that aspect of trade would change with the tariffs being dodged since they still have the sekiseigumi and the local magistrate tracking goods. They don't know the quantities foreign markets could send in, or what, if domestic goods get flooded out their economy can take massive hits.

Does bring up something interesting. Who would actually own Eureka? How far from Hingashi is it? Apparently far enough that they have yet to lay claim. As it's the Isle of Val does it still belong to Sharlayan? Since Sharlayans are backing the expedition to recover their own people and find out how it got transported does that legitimize their use as a port?