What is the General Consensus?

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Originally Posted by SaberYukihira

The fact you are talking about doing a fight in tank stance already means you're not tanking correctly. There is literally no point in arguing what tank does more in tank stance since you should not be using it other than on pull for MT.

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We discuss a tank stance dps potential of both tanks, not the dps potential out of it.
The discussion is, does warrior really delivers everything his kit could give to us or is he limited by the stance mechanics and he either could be tanky and heal himself doing way less dmg or doing damage only, because sadly enough warrior in deliverance loses his decent healing ability and mitigation, but why would you deal like 40% more damage for that? And this makes him worse than people try to make him look overloaded and so much better than anything else, well i cant say it i tried to play him and he feel just squishy.
Its obvious warrior is DPS level of dmg in deliverance lol.

Moral of this thread is that there is no General Consensus, only General Salt.
Although I am pretty sure we knew that already...

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

We discuss a tank stance dps potential of both tanks, not the dps potential out of it.

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Do you really not get mored DPS = less healing required? The faster you kill the boss the less dmg received. Also you have no idea what you're talking about because warrior is the only tank to switch stance OGCD not to mention the shortest cds vengeance and hg. either way you argue warrior has the most self healing in defiance. So in terms of tank stance dps potential yes you can solo fight way better than the other two(slashing, path healing, inner beast equilibrium, etc.) A dark doesn't have slashing. there goes its dps advantage. blood spiller and inner beast both ignore dmg penalty. If you haven't tanked through an entire tier of savage you really can't say much. Even in dungeons, faster you kill mobs less healing needed. ever since the rework 4.0 it has been trash. You only play dark if you wanna have "fun" now.

And the biggest factor you don't even take into account is most of Drks dps requires blackest night to be broken on cd or it loses out on all its blood spillers. So if you tried it on a dummy you'd definitely lose cause 1 no slashing and 2 no blackest nights. meanwhile war gets 5 free inner beasts every 90 seconds. good luck out parsing a war in tank stance.

Since WAR has highest dps it is meta. PLD has second highest and is meta. Botgh tanks have good utility.

DRK has lowest dps and no utility. So I think it's obvious and has been since 4.0

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

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you realice how ridculous is you post? bloodspiller get a damage penalty bcs loose the 20% damage buff off-grit, its 475 potency on grit to compensate the damage penalty is actually sufering for being in the stance.

and second, you cant argue DRK dealt more dps that WAR in tank stance more when WAR its not desing to stay in the same stance all the time specially defiance, WAR enjoy have both stance costless and ogcd for a reason and that one is to switch during the combat easily to take what we need, in a hypothetical case a WAR have to tank in defiance it will use they tank stance advantages to switch and use they gauge on fell cleaves and switch back to defiance when its done, dont lower WAR potential just for comvenience.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

Bloodspiller is not lowered by tank stance, DRK has 0 dmg penalty on tank stance because of Darkside.
It will remain 475 potency ability, with no damage penalty.

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It does suffer a penalty. Tank stance penalty is still 80%. 1.2*.8=.96 you are doing 24 percentage points less damage in tank stance than not in tanks stance (with dark side on). You also have additional penalties like not having access to blood weapon, you biggest dps cooldown on dark knight. Once again you are cherry picking 1 or 2 things and pretending that they are the only things that matter. If you compare 400 potency to 475 potency on bloodspiller, yes the grit potency looks bigger, but as I told you in the previous post you need to take into account buffed potencies as well. Taking those potency buffs into account and no grit looks more like 480 potency and grit looks more like 456 potency, a 24 potency difference. It doesn't seem like much but dark knight thrives on those small potency increases. There are other factors involved, this same argument was brought up by Quor when warrior changes happened. In general I want to ask you if you are an alt of Quor because your writing, logic, and even factual errors are extremely similar.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

I may be less frequent but it does not matter, because 1-2-3 combo is still way stronger than warrior get.

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Yes if we leave out oGCDs, buffs, autos, and special attacks I agree the 1-2-3 combo is stronger on dark knight. You still aren't looking at the kit as a whole. This isn't even close to proving what you desire.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

There is no way warrior in tank stance could do more damage than DRK in tank stance, not even a chance in hell.

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You have done nothing to show this or convince anyone of this with anything you've said here. To recap, you've tried comparing base potencies to base potencies without taking into account class buffs and actions, you claimed TBN is a self heal (where this conversation originated from), compared combo potency and oGCDs to just combo potency, and claimed that dark knight does not suffer a tank stance penalty. All of those points are invalid and in no way represent the class kits all together and at times are just completely false.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

I could demonstrate it with the numbers, in the 60 seconds of time the DRK in tank stance, comparing to warrior using only highest potency combo, inner beast use with generated furry gauge with combo and infuriate, considering all the buffs unchained, inner release inner beast 5 times use and even 10% bonus dmg from storms eye combo is 880 potency lower than DRK using 1-2-3 combo, salted earth, plunge, carve and spit without bloodspiller.
I could show you the numbers if you want.

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Go for it, but I wouldn't stop at a minute because that is a convenient spot to stop at for dark knight and a bad spot to stop your comparison at for warrior. 240 seconds is the reset time for dark knight abilities, and 180 is a reset point for warrior. The fully mapped out rotation ending at those times should be more indicative of what they can do in tank stance in a potency per second sense. I look forward to seeing the full excel sheet when it is finished.

And by the way, this red herring that you have led us down with "who does more in tank stance", has absolutely nothing to do with the original claim that I asked you to clarify on which is how dark knight is self healing itself out of grit.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

DRK basically doesnt sacrifice anything, maybe soul eater drain when out of grit stance, thats it. He is absolutely fine tanking, dealing damage and healing himself at the same time. Warrior could do the same, but then he does less dps anyway.

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Of course they can all do the content, but you're making it marginally more difficult for yourself if you bring a DRK. You're forcing the rest of your party to play better and make fewer mistakes.

DRK's lack the utility of Paladin and are considerably far behind warrior DPS. You are denying your party a good 500-1000 DPS if you bring a DRK instead of a warrior, and denying yourself many powerful mechanic-ignoring effects if you bring DRK instead of a paladin.

A lot of the frustration with DRK comes from the fact that the other tanks do many of the things DRK does but just better versions. As a DRK player I feel that I am actually giving my team a disadvantage because my spot could have been taken by one of the other tanks. This is not a nice feeling and I do not want to feel that way.

I feel like DRK is good enough to clear content. My main problem with it is that alot of DRK's abilities are generally inferior to their WAR and PLD counterparts. Grit for example, reduces damage taken by 20% and damage dealt by 20%. Shield Oath does the same thing but only reduces damage dealt by 15%. Defiance is a little different so it's more difficult to compare. Shadow wall is pretty similar as well, having the same potency as Vengeance and the same duration and CD time as Sentinel. Plunge has no resource cost, but is arguably inferior to Upheaval in every way. Living dead, while in theory can prevent you from dying for a solid 10 seconds, just feels so punishing to the healers. That and even if you die from the effect of Walking Dead, you still get that nice 300 second CD. DRK also feels a bit lacking in complexity when compared to WAR or PLD. I'd say DRK just falls a little short in a lot of areas and doesn't really make up for it anywhere else, that combined with it being oversimplified, makes it feel lackluster to say the least.

Yea each tank can do the content but like others have said DRK requires to much attention while the other tanks can do the same job but much better and can also add more to the party...doom and gloom becaus DRK is not ok or in an okay spot as far as tanks go, besides being pretty good in the V8s fight but that's a whole different story lol