A lot of people dont like to play Tank -

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Originally Posted by ObsidianFire

Currently, I find the game is pretty toxic to people who are trying to be able to do it. Tanking is an all or nothing game at the moment.

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Tanks don't see it that way though I look at dungeon groups and on the first pull i'll either know this is gonna be a good run or a bad run based solely on the DPS from the total group the reason it's all or nothing is because dungeons are nothing but hallways that you AoE down. It doesn't take any thought process to pull everything and pop CDs every time one goes down the real thinking comes from tanking in the mindset of "okay I have threat and i'm securing it while mitigating, how can I squeeze more DPS in?", that in itself is the hardest thing to do.

You are literally describing life.
When people fail they have to blame someone so they don't have to accept there own failures.
The tank is the easiest to blame then comes the healer.
You can't blame the DPS without telling them how low their DPS is and that is no no talk because it doesn't matter if they are only doing 350 dps at level 70 they are entitled to waste everyone's time and put in zero effort while everyone else has to work to make up for their laziness.

PS: People need to stop calling things toxic. Stop using this annoying PC buzzword.

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Originally Posted by Ash_

Curious thing to note; in HW you could somehow tell if someone was enjoying tanking even if a word was never said.

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This is a very valid observation. in 3.X you knew if you're tank loved their job and was having fun. Nowadays its less obvious but...

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It's difficult to describe, but now it feels like every tank I get in whatever content I'm doing completely lacks energy.

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We still exist, myself in particular, I am always pushing to see just what I can get away with, what new optimizations I can find in any duty I go into. Whether its a dungeon, 24 man, trial or savage raid, I simply find tanking to be fun—throwing myself at the forefront, taking all the hits for my party, being the driving force behind our actions in a group. That's precisely why I tank. Unfortunately, that's not enough for most people anymore, as our role has been gutted, our head kicked in, and then poked with a stick just to make sure it's still somewhat alive.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

Mhm... I'd argue otherwise. The fact that the trinity is not in fact built on three equal pillars shows in the fact that both more healing and more tanking than necessary is useless, whereas more damage isn't. Moreover, healing/tanking tools are largely limited to healers/tanks, whereas DPS tools are given away to everyone - Literally because they need them to function solo. Furthermore, neither tanks nor healers can function without enemy damage dealers, whereas damage dealers can work fine without enemy tanks/healers.

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I don't believe this poster was suggesting that all roles are created equal. However, they are quite balanced as far as importance in a group setting, and that is what he's referring to.

Whatever resources a job uses, whether it is HP, MP, or TP, most of them have ways to regenerate it. This along with offensive capability helps them solo. So the healing/tanking tools being limited to them is mostly not true. The exception is enmity generation, but you don't need this while you solo since you tank by default. However, like tanks, many DPS and healer jobs have ways to mitigate incoming damage to them.

I could argue with you about duo setups and their functionality, or lack thereof, but this is getting away from the point. What matters is that when Tank/Healer/DPS have synergy, they wreck content. As a DPS, the maximization of the damage you put out requires the tank and healer to do their respective roles. Likewise, their sustainability is limited and they need damage dealers to kill stuff before they kill them. We should be fist-bumping, not trying to one-up the other.

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Originally Posted by ObsidianFire

Tanking is an all or nothing game at the moment.

Healing and DPS get a lot more leeway from other players and so more people play them.

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Bzzzzt. There are actually less Healers than Tanks last I checked, and those Healers are under the exact same "DPS" stigma. DPS also don't get leeway - their requirement/expectation is simply far more confined - which actually makes it a lot easier to notice when one is failing at their job. They do not get the same type of flak, however, seeing as even if they are doing their job poorly, they still only have one primary responsibility - the one everyone else has. To kill stuff. You can be sure that in a lot of groups favouring any kind of optimal play, those not doing this to a certain standard can and will be kicked or called out, often more than a Tank or Healer due to them having the additional aspects of their role-description to put under the microscope first. You can be an exceptional "Healer" and not a very good "DPS Healer" - sometimes that is more than enough. If, however, you are not a very good DPS, this rings alarm bells in a game where damage typically wins content.

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I don't believe this poster was suggesting that all roles are created equal. However, they are quite balanced as far as importance in a group setting, and that is what he's referring to.

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This. Creation wasn't in question. The point was quite simple - take any role/responsibility out of the equation and the whole group suffers, often irrecoverably so depending on circumstances. This is why you can't hold one so highly above another when any one of them, on their lonesome, isn't exactly going to perform a task with any level of efficiency whatsoever. They're all needed. I don't enter a dungeon and grovel at the feet of a tank - to me, they have a job just like I do as a Healer or DPS. Efficient use of all three nets smooth results, yet I've met many a player who get up their own backside about them feeling they are the most important part of the team (which is always amusing).

The point was aimed squarely at the guy who had it in their head that 'it makes sense' the 'Warrior of Light' is a 'tank', which makes no sense at all.

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All I am saying is people are use to things a certain way. Sometimes you can't teach a dog a new trick...

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Then they are bad players, plain and simple. I won't list the huge number of MMORPGs (trinity or otherwise) I presently play, but let's just say that to treat any of them as the same (just because of a familiar format) is both bad and silly, especially when you do not start any of them without having to level-up and discover how things operate in this new environment. Don't get me wrong, I know what you're saying, but it is no excuse. As a Healer you can bet I've seen many Healers admitting as much in the Healer DPS thread, where they will use the "I didn't have to DPS in X game, so why should I have to here?" as a defence mechanism, to which - as already said - these people had plenty of time to learn/realize that 'this isn't the same damn game'. If people have "old dog new trick" mentality, they were likely performing just as poorly in that other game they waded in from if they are so unable to adapt - adaptation being a huge part of any MMORPG.

To over-exaggerate the point a bit: I've been gaming since 1989, so if you honestly think I treat Treasure Island Dizzy on the C64 the same as I do Mario on the NES (just because they're both essentially platform games at their core), then you're sorely mistaken. They're nothing alike at all and don't get treated the same way at any point because I'm not some bad, stubborn gamer who can't tell the difference.

The irony is that WoW (and any MMORPG) also has that group of the playerbase looking to optimize. I could list any number of conversations from Mythic+ timed-dungeon enthusiasts who were just as passionate about Tank DPS as they were DPS-DPS. This isn't a new phenomena, and it's not "DPS > Tanking" or "DPS > Healing", it's simply optimization through using every tool at your disposal to get things dead, no matter what role those tools are coming from or are available to. Both games also harbour players who are happy doing the bare-minimum, to which these people are often the brunt of the debate as it's often seen as downright poor play or 'being carried' when there are better alternatives.

Adding onto Ropes first point I also believe we have less Healers before 4.2 goes live. Now when it goes live I am also certain we will have less tanks. I would like to see the new graph that shows Tanks/Heals/Dps now I honestly believe we are going to have so much more dps players overall. I also would like to see how this graph is compiled as I am almost certain a few 70 tanks/healers refuse to touch the role and instead swapped to Dps.

Ehh, if anything I'm more interested in WAR now. Before it was just too much bother for 3rd job (after BLM and SCH), but now it seems fun.

I like Tanking because it feels thematically more important even if mechanically it is not. The enemy is facing ME and trying to kill ME and I am not poking its butt trying to stay off its radar I am in the front raging in defiance as I look a God in the eye. I feel that Tanks fight the enemy where DPS are often fighting their class or whatever esoteric mechanic the developers want you to struggle to figure out.

And yes, not doing significant damage as a Tank would bother me. It becomes really hard sticking with Paladin in particular when there seems to be this almost constant push for my class to do less damage than everything else. Heavensward felt awful for that class, and while Stormblood got better I can't seem to get through a patch without some kind of chipping away at my DPS.

tanking is fun, they cleave you, you live, the party dies

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Originally Posted by Mirch

tanking is fun, they cleave you, you live, the party dies

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Yeah, best part of being a tank for me is to be able to survive what others can't. It was fun to discover I could survive blighted bouquet against Rafflesia during second coil progression while everybody else died.
I like to play tank because I can be the wall between the enemy and the party. It's also nice when you can recover a run that started to go bad, like a World of Darkness run where people had some issues killing the small clouds during the fight against Cloud of Darkness. The boss was getting a few stacks and it wasn't looking good. I used my tank LB, my party survived, not the other 2. healers proceeded to raise the other healers and we manage to get everyone back on their feet and kill the boss. Fun times
The changes to warrior don't affect me that much. I had fun playing warrior so far, and from the look of it, I will continue to have fun playing with it.