Maybe we were still so full of rage thanks to a certain someones death that we just plainly overdid it with Thordan while we might not have gone full WoL on Ysayle. (And yes this does not make that much sense either x))But who knows maybe he did burn to much aether by having to keep up the knights and using that one big attack to finish us off. (Or he had just an heart attack thanks to his old age and shock of what we did)Quote:
Originally Posted by Cilia
Honestly I believe that they kept Ysayle alive simply because she had a further use in the plot and since this was the end for Thordans story they just let him die. But I agree it is strange.
-
09-17-2017, 07:02 PMAlleo
-
09-17-2017, 08:01 PMTheodric
Thordan received a pretty raw deal. In his own way, he was a hero simply seeking to do what he thought was best to ensure that his people survived. He also had twelve knights following him, each with their own distinct personalities and differing degrees of honour, as confirmed by their biographies within the lore book. Even Zephirin who is the one to put a certain someone to death is described as an honourable figure yet is unfairly criticised by many simply he happened to kill a fan favourite who would no doubt have tried to kill or at least harm the Archbishop himself if given the opportunity.
It wasn't as if the Archbishop took pleasure in killing in the name of his goals. He simply wished to put an end to a bitter war that had waged for a thousand years with no end in sight. Much like the Warrior of Light, he sought to use divine power to achieve that goal. Something that Ysayle herself did, yet received very little criticism for. Let's not forget that she also cheered as the barrier protecting Ishgard fell and the Dravanians flocking to her side assaulted the Ishgardians within - non-combatants included. She may have expressed her regret at a later date but that was someone literally blessed by Hydaelyn.
If she hadn't died in Azyz Lla, she no doubt would have been forgiven by the protagonists. The Archbishop, meanwhile, would receive no such mercy I suspect. He would be forced to step down, perhaps confess his 'sins' and be imprisoned. As is often the case, the protagonists are quite simply hypocrites refusing to see the bigger picture and understand the motives of those they clash with, often writing them off as 'necessary sacrifices' despite giving their own allies a free pass for the same 'sins'.
At any rate, 4.0 handled the antagonists far better. It helps that they received a greater amount of time on screen this time around and the protagonists are at least attempting to understand their point of view. It remains to be seen what becomes of those particular plot points, though. -
09-18-2017, 12:03 AMCiliaUh-uh. No. Calling shenanigans; that wasn't the Archbishop's motivation at all. One could be forgiven for thinking so, since prior to Nidhogg's defeat this was his stated purpose for his plan. However, when confronted with Nidhogg's (then-unknown to be temporary) death he just yells "But muh history!" and goes through with it anyway, and later tells us that he intends to "bless" all men in order to bring about an "endless era of peace" where "vice and conflict [have ceased] to be." (Layman's terms: he wanted to temper everyone and strip away free will to bring about peace.) The war was, for most intents and purposes, over by the time the Archbishop truly set his plans into motion - showing that he was not a well-intentioned extremist, but a power-hungry old man.Quote:
Originally Posted by Theodric
Magic philosophy: this makes Thordan a perfect example of a White villain, and also shows why in moderation Red/Black isn't necessarily evil.
Calling out Ysayle for exulting in the Dravanian assault on Ishgard was probably one of the things I most wanted to do. Though she claimed ignorance in regards to knowing the Dravanians would go after civilians... what the kupo did she expect?! -
09-18-2017, 09:48 PMAlleoWe were already on a path to freedom when Thordan decided to go full primal so if he let us just do our thing then we would have achieved peace without him turning into a primal and all the tempering that ensures. Yes part of the knights were honorable but they were tempered by Thordan! He is the reason why they went that far and his goal was far from just ending that one war. He wanted to be the king of all and probably would have used tempering as a mean to gain that. This is far away from Ysayle even though she also killed innocent people but she never went as far as tempering. Thordan was also against telling anyone the truth so his rule would have all been built on lies and tempering. How is that good?Quote:
Originally Posted by Theodric
We found out the truth thanks to our echo, which was also known by Thordan and we saw how he reacted when his own son spoke to him about this. He tortured and imprisoned his own son and wanted to use force to end this war which would have meant countless of deaths, lots of consumed aether and people that are living a "good" life thanks to being tempered.
So he knew about the lies but kept it up like all the ones before him and when his own son wanted to change it, he took great measurements to insure that the truths will remain hidden. This is far away from Ysayle who also lived a lie (which was unknown to her) and who changed her view when she found out the truth. Thordan never wanted the truth to come out.
And in the end we would never know if Ysayle would have gotten off completely without any punishment, she is death, so anything that could have theoretically happen is only a theory and nothing more. -
09-19-2017, 03:00 AMDelilyYou completely missed a key difference between Thordan and Ysayle. Thordan knew quite well that the Dragonsong War was based off a lie. He was more than content to keep that lie going so long as it kept him in power. The Ascians provided him with a way to increase his power namely to become a primal and then end the war, which would drive Ishgard into a fervent state and allow him to wage a campaign of conquest. With war ended, he could shift to use the Garleans as his reason for conquering and "unifying" Eorzea. There was nothing redeemable about Thordan, he was a power hungry man who would use whatever means, including genocide, to get more power.Quote:
Originally Posted by Theodric
That's only because Zenos didn't have the same motivations as everyone else.Quote:
At any rate, 4.0 handled the antagonists far better. It helps that they received a greater amount of time on screen this time around and the protagonists are at least attempting to understand their point of view. It remains to be seen what becomes of those particular plot points, though.
-
09-19-2017, 03:08 AMDelilyThordan's not dead. He became a primal and when we defeated him, he did what all primals do, dissipate back into the aether. With enough crystals and prayer, a particularly religious cult could summon him back into being. The reason this is unlikely is the only people who knew what he became aren't too keen on that happening. Ysayle's power is more akin to summoning. She summons her idea of Shiva into herself, but she still remains in control thanks to the Echo.Quote:
We did what we had to do - the alternative was, as Elidibus suggests, allowing another Calamity to come to pass. (Of course, just why this kills Thordan and not Ysayle I couldn't say.)
-
09-19-2017, 04:12 AMAnonymooseI think this is the first time I've seen this particular interpretation. I've been operating under different assumptions until now:Quote:
Originally Posted by Delily
First, a premise: An old post by Fernehalwes suggests that many (if not all) primals are anchored onto the soul of something that died, was shorn apart by the Lifestream, and had its (still dead and broken) pieces re-materialized into something new. If it's possible for summoning to result in a resurrection rather than a reconfiguration, we've yet to see it. (I'm not even 100% sure that we've seen a primal built from scratch, without that anchor soul, but the idea can't be discarded, yet.)
Ysayle's summoning (allegedly) acted as a beacon for the shattered pieces of the soul of Saint Shiva and reconfigured them into a primal power-suit that merged with her own soul, allowing her to become a vessel for the primal Shiva - a goddess born from her own delusions.
The above interpretation makes Thordan sound like Phoenix, whereby (as far as presently-available materials suggest, including Louisoix's own beliefs) his own soul was stuffed full of primal-like power via aether and prayer and he was transformed into a "pseudo-primal". Summoning Phoenix again would reconfigure Louisoix's soul and bind his remains and memory to that manifestation forever, much like the Allagan general who has become Garuda. The thought gives the twins enough pause that they just don't ever tell anyone what happened.
But Thordan VII was more like Shiva than Phoenix, no? Over time the soul of Thordan I had been deified - given impossible dimensions, power, and splendor through a thousand years of embellishment and worship. The soul of Thordan I is what Thordan VII claims he's drawing into himself, merging with it like Ysayle (even though Nabriales's lines suggest that only those with the Echo can act as vessels for divine influx; a mystery for the ages). Also like Ysayle, we pummel him until he can't hold onto it anymore. Unlike Ysayle, the old man can't take the beating and exhaustion and just dies. (That would have been an interesting thing to point to like, "That's what happens when you don't have the Echo! You're permanently enmeshed until you die!" but One Primal, Two Primal, Red Primal, Blue Primal contradicts the Encyclopaedia Eorzea and implies that Thordan VII was primal enough to bless the Heavens Ward long before the transformation we actually witness; a mystery for the ages.)
So Thordan I's soul has been warped and returned to the aether. And Thordan VII is also in the aether, but probably just as a dead old guy returned to the Lifestream. Now, if someone were to summon him again ... which would they get? Could be either, depending on their beliefs...
Unless I'm misinterpreting it, lol. -
09-19-2017, 04:42 AMLineageRazor
Folks need to stop trying to portray Thordan as a mwa ha ha moustache-twirling evil villain. He was a LOT more nuanced than that.
First off, Aymeric was never tortured, as far as I can remember. After his conversation with his father, he was imprisoned to stop him from interfering - which was uncharacteristically merciful for the papacy who have been known to drop folks off cliffs merely on suspicion of sympathy toward dragons. Aymeric's claims, that Ishgard was the perpetrator of the war and that the dragons were the aggrieved party, were nothing short of heresy - officially, at least - and had Thordan desired it he COULD have tortured or killed Aymeric. But he didn't. Even when executing his son would most likely have been the wisest course of action at that point, he chose to imprison him instead, and that came back to bite him when his imprisonment prompted us to enter the Vault and bust him out. These are not the actions of a ruthless megalomaniac, but of a well-intentioned extremist. Or, at the very least, they are the actions of a man who draws the line at killing his own son.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alleo
His conversation with Aymeric, too, reveals that he's NOT in this game for power for its own sake. He played the game to the end, well after it was clear the War was coming to an end, because he believed that revealing the truth to Ishgard would BREAK its people. He was willing to do anything to ensure that the truth remained hidden, that his people be allowed to believe that they'd been fighting and dying for a thousand years for a NOBLE cause. To ensure that the millennial lie remain the truth of Ishgard, he was willing to get primaled up in order to continue the holy war until none were left to contest the truth as the papacy told it. In truth, of course, Ishgard's people were stronger than that and (most of them) did not break under the weight of the truth, but Thordan had no way of knowing that would be the case. And, truthfully, neither did Aymeric or his allies - and their faith in the people of Ishgard paid off.Quote:
Originally Posted by Delily
It's fine to believe, if you like, that Thordan was in it because he couldn't stand the idea of not being in power, that he wanted to lord it over everyone for his own ego. However, understand that this is only personal interpretation, and is not supported by the dialog in the game. The game paints him as a man BURDENED by his power, performing terrible acts for what he sees to be the greater good. -
09-19-2017, 05:23 AMDelily
So, that's a lot to take in! I admit I had a rather simplistic view of what a primal was. My understanding based on Hraesvelgr's lines was that a primal is essentially a massive aetheric construct that's imbued with a form of sentience because it's summoned with emotions and memories of its followers. (Arcanists, on the other hand, summon carbuncle using a series of mathematical formulas). In the case of a primal, the memories and emotions of the summoners are "given life" by the aether, which is why primals have personalities and memories, unlike a carbuncle. I also see a rather cyclic nature to primals. The more a primal is summoned, the more definite the form become, the more the aether use to construct it is influenced by the primal until it becomes an elder primal which no longer needs the beliefs of it's followers to take shape since there's enough aspected aether in the life stream. I may be wrong in all this, feel free to correct me!
The primary difference I saw between Ysayle and Thordan was the Echo. I took that to mean Ysayle was able to keep her aetheric essence from becoming intertwined with Shiva, allowing her to change back and forth from a primal. With Thordan VII, my understanding is that his "ascension" was similar to Louisoix's, meaning that his aether is now intertwined with Thordan I's, so you can't summon one without the other. The thing that strikes me as being different about these primals and the beastmen primals is that they were summoned into sentient, living beings, so the resulting entity is mixture of the formerly mortal's personality and the personality of the newly created primal. Garuda, Ifrit, Bahamut, etc. were all created from the memories of their respective summoners, which is why they tend to be a bit more single minded. -
09-19-2017, 05:45 AMDelilyAnd you need to stop thinking there's something redeemable about Thordan. For most of the Big Bads, the writers have done quite a bit to show us that in their own minds, they genuinely believe they are right. The 2 exceptions to that are Zenos, who is arguable psychotic, and Thordan, who is clearly a megalomaniac. His conversation with Ayermic was less about the burden of leadership, and more about tripping him up and confusing him. He literally says he wants to become a god, and then refers to himself as a god-king. He then says that no matter where chaos is, he will excise it with his sword and install order. He's not a cartoon villian, but he's not nuanced either.Quote:
Folks need to stop trying to portray Thordan as a mwa ha ha moustache-twirling evil villain. He was a LOT more nuanced than that.