Going to main a tank job for SB need some advice

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Originally Posted by SyzzleSpark

I can't really sympathize with this line of thinking either, as WAR already had so much, so idk what more they could have added. The main things that they lost were utility, which I feel is a justifiable trade-off for having the highest DPS. Self healing took a hit with Bloodbath, but WAR got Rampart in return, which is bananas. WAR is actually looking like a far better MT than OT in 4.0.

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you sympathize with them or not doesn't matter because it's a fact that they are treated unfairly because peole think they are "overpowered" which is false because if they do then tank meta in 3.x gonna be dual WAR but WAR still stick almost exclusively as OT because defensively they aren't as strong as PLD and DRK, and how can they have "so much" when they took their utilities away, storm path doesn't have damage debuff anymore,they don't have bloodbath anymore, and 3 out of their total 4 new skills are useless crap that most WAR won't even use on regular basis
they are better MT, but they still won't be MT because PLD and DRK are better defensively, and as OT they offer none except for raw damage which PLD and DRK gonna match in anyway 4.0 so basically they have nothing

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Originally Posted by konpachizaraki

you sympathize with them or not doesn't matter because it's a fact that they are treated unfairly because peole think they are "overpowered" which is false because if they do then tank meta in 3.x gonna be dual WAR but WAR still stick almost exclusively as OT because defensively they aren't as strong as PLD and DRK, and how can they have "so much" when they took their utilities away, storm path doesn't have damage debuff anymore,they don't have bloodbath anymore, and 3 out of their total 4 new skills are useless crap that most WAR won't even use on regular basis
they are better MT, but they still won't be MT because PLD and DRK are better defensively, and as OT they offer none except for raw damage which PLD and DRK gonna match in anyway 4.0 so basically they have nothing

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Actually, WARs were fantastic MTs in 3.x ...I largely blame the MT/OT mentality people have for them not being allowed to tank. But plenty of WARs didn't even want to tank even if you asked them to.

They arguably have the best personal mitigation right now and DRK and PLD no longer have utility locked behind getting hit. WAR is not nearly in as bad a spot as you think, and them losing Path is totally justifiable because that is largely what made them a mandatory. They aren't mandatory anymore, and I think that is fair and not really something WAR mains should be pitching a fit about. DRK and PLD being "better defensively" is pretty untrue actually.

PLD's ridiculously overtuned DPS numbers however, that's another story. But I think we're all hoping that changes (with the exception of the most bitter PLD mains out there).

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Originally Posted by FallenWings

For PLD this isn't a big deal because Sheltron is a sprinkle in contrast to the rest of their kit and DRK just loses MP and nothing else.

For WAR it becomes disgustingly clunky and neuters our general stack usage. No stance swap penalty has ever made any tank want to only just stay in one stance as much as this one.

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Clunkier than spending a GCD doing zero damage? DRK loses a lot of MP and a GCD, PLD loses a little bit of MP, a GCD, and their gauge (which is pretty useless), and WAR loses their Gauge and that's it.

Honestly to me it looks like WARs still have the best deal as far as stance swapping, its just that now you have some cost as opposed to no cost at all. That's not clunky, that's fair.

Instant mitigation for a small section of easily recoverable MP and a minor 220pot cost (avg gcd pot before DA) versus not so instant mitigation with a potential lost of 450 potency just to access our equivalent of Sheltron/DM and a 10 second stance lock as well as another half gauge versus grit off at best one gcd following? I don't need to say how much defiance sucks with its heavier penalty and lack of synergy with ability heals. I'd happily take that gcd cost if it meant not shredding my stacks/gauge and neutering me from utilizing half my toolset.

All that being said, I still think WARs will be in a good spot as long as they dial back the media tour PLD buffs. They just won't be mandatory. It may feel clunkier to you, but I think the loss in potency mathematically isn't any greater over the course of a fight than it is on the other two tanks, unless you are constantly hopping into Defiance with a full Beast Gauge (and thus taking the full 50 point loss).

Also Defiance's penalty is now -20% instead of -25%.

That "half your toolset" is stuff the other tanks don't even have period. Leaving Equil's heal and IB completely aside, you have as many CDs as the other tanks. Grit DRK and ShO PLD don't get bonus CDs/heals from going into their defensive stance.

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Originally Posted by SyzzleSpark

Grit DRK and ShO PLD don't get bonus CDs/heals from going into their defensive stance.

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well duh,grit and shield oath already flat out reduce damage by 20%, why should they get bonus heals from it? that will make defiance far inferior(as if it isn't inferior already) you don't know what you're talking about
and yeah i agree WAR won't be mandatory anymore, they will be forgettable, because again i will say it again they offer nothing on the table

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Originally Posted by konpachizaraki

well duh,grit and shield oath already flat out reduce damage by 20%

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Yes! Exactly. Duh. So you have a baller self-heal and some good on-demand mitigation at the cost of your defensive stance being like, 1% weaker. If this is going to turn into a debate about Defiance being meaningfully weaker than Grit/ShO I'm not going there, because it is not. By itself, its marginally weaker (I think healing/shields are ever so slightly less efficient on a WAR iirc). Which is why you get IB, which is insanely powerful, and Equil, which is also pretty powerful and boosted by Berserk, to make up for that single-digit-percentage difference.

These defensive stances were pretty well balanced in 3.x, the main way in which they were not balanced was in the fact that WAR suffered very little if any penalty from hopping in and out of them. The gauge and associated costs fixed that. Welcome to the land of needing to think about whether you can/should stance-dance, where the other two tanks have been living for an entire expansion.

WAR as a job was not treated unfairly at all, it was mitigated to a level where it would not be REQUIRED. It no longer has a monopoly on slashing, Path/Reprisal are now accessible to all tanks, and you now have a cost for stance-dancing. IDK how much more fair it could get, assuming PLD's media tour numbers get toned down to reasonable levels.

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Originally Posted by SyzzleSpark

Yes! Exactly. Duh. So you have a baller self-heal and some good on-demand mitigation at the cost of your defensive stance being like, 1% weaker.

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no because defiance doesn't heal your HP after you switch to it, you need to rely on healer to heal those HP gained, meanwhile grit and SHO are damage mitigation so the effect are instant
and just because WAR has good mitigation does not change the fact that they have 3 new useless skills that will give WAR next to nothing to help them with new content,and the fact that you still think that is fair again shows that you don't know what you're talking about

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Originally Posted by SyzzleSpark

These defensive stances were pretty well balanced in 3.x, the main way in which they were not balanced was in the fact that WAR suffered very little if any penalty from hopping in and out of them. The gauge and associated costs fixed that. Welcome to the land of needing to think about whether you can/should stance-dance, where the other two tanks have been living for an entire expansion.

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DRK and PLD have a penalty for stance dancing because their stances activate immediately while WAR's does not.

First I'll explain how the stances work (for those who don't know)

DRK and PLD get a 20% incoming damage reduction while WAR gets 25% more hp. Lets say that all three tanks have 100 base HP and then turn on their tank stances.

PLD 100 HP
WAR 125 HP
DRK 100 HP

And now a mob throws 5 rocks at them, doing 25 damage each.

Since PLD and DRK get damage reduced, the rocks only do 20 damage to them. They will be killed in exactly 5 hits. (20 x 5 = 100)

WAR takes the full 25 Damage, also dying in 5 hits. (25 x 5 = 125)

In this case, the stances are equal.

Now lets say all three tanks were fighting as off tanks but have decided to provoke and tank swap.

PLD and DRK are at their 100 HP base and ready to to go already. WAR on the other hand is stuck at 100 until it gets a heal since switching to tank stance increases the health pool without filling it.

If the same mob decides to hurl 25 damage rocks at them, PLD and DRK can take 5 hits before dying while WAR would be killed by the 4th rock. (25 x 4= 100)

In short, making sheild oath and Grit as convenient as Defiance would turn it into an extra 20% damage reduction ability with unlimited uptime and short cooldown.

If War's shift into tank stance had an effect like thrill of battle baked into it (so the HP increase would be accomopanied by an instant heal) then I'd agree that WARs stance dancing would need the stormblood treatment.

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Originally Posted by konpachizaraki

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Did you just come back to the game or something and completely miss out on WAR's 2 years of unchecked prosperity and being guaranteed a raid slot?

If Defiance healed HP after switching to it, you would have to move Grit and ShO off the GCD to keep them balanced. And then players like you would still be salty.

WAR's new gap closer has considerably longer range than Plunge (20y over 15y) meaning that there is potential to aid in positioning and increasing your own uptime as well as your raid's uptime by keeping the boss static. DRK mains have been doing this for a while now. Optimal positioning directly translates to DPS and not just for you, but for the raid. Its also a knockback negation. So while yeah, it cuts into your FEEELLL CLEEEEV, there are situations where it'd be better to use it than simply lumbering back over to the boss while the boss runs to meet you in the middle, thus robbing your melee of uptime. You have to think of people other than yourself which I understand doesn't come naturally to a fair few of the more casual WAR mains.

Upheaval is literally Fracture with its potency consolidated into a single hit, and off the GCD, meaning that it is still going to be optimal in certain points in your rotation.

Inner Release I am certain is not one of the "useless" abilities you're referring to.

So that leaves Shake It Off as the only actually meme-worthy ability that is new to WAR in 4.0, and it remains to be seen if content will take advantage of it.

WAR never struggled with any content and they still have access to all the tools or equivalents thereof at the very least, that made them powerful. Its just that now, they don't have exclusive access to them, which means that you may actually have to compete with another tank for a raid slot down here on the dirty streets of the tank meta as opposed to living in an ivory bourgeoisie tower of being guaranteed a spot in any encounter you please.

WAR barely got nerfed at all, they just shared a bit of their wealth. They lost Bloodbath but gained Rampart, they lost Path but gained Reprisal, and while Defiance is a bit harder to just hop into willy-nilly, it penalizes you 5% less than it used to.

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Originally Posted by SyzzleSpark

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1.onslaught is garbage, it is supposed to be our gap closer but it not just consumed our beast gauge but because we can't infuriate pre battle means we can't use it as our pulling move either and since sprint doesn't consume TP anymore per 4.0 i rather use that than wasting my beast gauge(which is better used for fell cleave or inner beast)
2.upheaval is also garbage,not just its damage get lower along with your HP it consumed beast gauge means it will delay you using stronger skill like fell cleave and inner beast which both has more potency,onslaught and upheaval would be so much better if those 2 don't consume beast gauge if you use them considering they already have cooldown
3.shake it off i don't know why that skill even exist it will be a bit more useful than it is currently if berserk wasn't changed, it will never have a moment when it can save the warrior's life or be useful in a big way for that matter
why we got into the nerf talk all of sudden?the topic is never about that i just said i don't like warrior new skill because for me their new skills are garbage, you just trying to justify it by saying it isn't because you don't know what you're talking about that job but you're acting like you do. and WAR never struggled? oh boy you never play war in 2.0 if that's what you think they "never struggled", and they will in the future mark my words if they keep going like this
let's just agree to disagree because this is going nowhere, i will never agree to your statement and so do you, before this gets personal we better end it here