I just realised... are we L'cie? [Possible 3.2 spoilers]

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Originally Posted by RyuRoots

snip a dee doo da

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What happens when the Warrior chooses to go against the crystal's wishes?

I agree that what we've seen so far is not really as demanding as XIII's focus, but at the same time, there's a lot we don't know about the responsibilities that have been laid down on us and our predecessors. Why do Warriors appear and disappear through history? What are Hydaelyn's "requirements" for choosing someone? What is our ultimate fate in the battle against darkness and how do those requirements for being chosen aid in that? I think it's fair to at least hypothesize that Hydaelyn may attempt to use your character for something they may not agree with in the future.

Crackpot time!

While I'm not sure if Hydaelyn directly tempers us, old Ifrit conversation aside, I am a bit fond of the idea that She is subtly guiding us in the direction She wishes for us to develop, like a parent teaches a child. So it's not directly removing free will, since you're still willingly following Her, but you are being led to believe that Hers is the right path.

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Originally Posted by CyrilLucifer

What happens when the Warrior chooses to go against the crystal's wishes?

I agree that what we've seen so far is not really as demanding as XIII's focus, but at the same time, there's a lot we don't know about the responsibilities that have been laid down on us and our predecessors. Why do Warriors appear and disappear through history? What are Hydaelyn's "requirements" for choosing someone? What is our ultimate and eventual fate in the battle against darkness? I think it's fair to at least hypothesize that Hydaelyn may attempt to use your character for something they may not agree with in the future.

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Calamities probably have something to do with disappearing in some cases. And if not that, during periods where people aren't especially needed (such as great warriors in times of relative peace) they generally fade away. As for the basis on which she chooses who to give blessing to, that's actually an interesting question and one I'd be curious to see answered. I suspect we won't see the "ultimate fate" question answered for a *very* long time. To me, the notion smells like a conspiracy theory created from whole cloth by those desperate to see one. As far as the world we inhabit is concerned at least, Hydaelyn has been nothing but benevolent and certainly hasn't strongarmed us into anything, at least as of this writing. Perhaps 3.2 will introduce something new but for the moment I don't even see much that's available to examine for such arguments.

As for being indoctrinated into believing Hydaelen is good...I dunno. I think that's less likely than the fact that the people she empowers you to fight are murdering your friends, nuking people, or encouraging widespread slaughter and aether-draining primal summoning at any given time (among other things).

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Originally Posted by RyuRoots

more snipping

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This is how I view being chosen by Hydaelyn - and why it may be problematic to some. It is a normal thing to want to continue living, both in-game and out. You may enjoy spending time with your friends and family, you may enjoy protecting someone. You may have a lover you planned on spending your entire life with.

Then suddenly, Hydaelyn asks your character to sacrifice a part of themselves, be it their lives, their freedom, or something else, for the greater good. That's just like what she appeared to do to Minfilia, which is really why this argument is capable of existing in this place. If you love living your life, that's not something you immediately jump on. It's not exactly strongarming you, but it's not really a gentle request, either, since it's our responsibility. I do think 3.2 will give us more answers on this front, at least. Or more questions. Probably more questions.

So yes, I think it is possible for Hydaelyn to ask something of us that some players might be unwilling to give. If they said no, that's when I ask: What then? I'm actually genuinely curious. I just can't see her going "okay!" and watching the world burn, but what other options is she capable of? Would she ask another representative who fights on her behalf instead? What if there's no time, like 2.55? Too many questions, not enough answers, really.
Belated edit: I'd say that a lot of this has to do with the limits of the game's storytelling method and the glorification of self-sacrifice in fiction (and very much so in XIV, basically that entire 2.55 scene had it, and then you have Haurchefant and Ysayle). I expect that, if we are to sacrifice something, we'll all end up doing it without hesitation or complaint.

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Originally Posted by RyuRoots

Honestly, this bit the fandom seems to have about "The WoL clearly has no control or agency whatsoever in their life we're basically a slave to the crystal" is frankly stupid. The crystal blesses you, sure, but you clearly have more than enough opportunity to walk away from all of this with no punishment, and you are repeatedly asked if you're sure you want to do this at numerous points in the MSQ. The WoL *chooses* to keep helping the Scions, Ishgard, and whoever else their various questing aids at any given time. A point of this was even made in the Void Ark quests where Leofard says he bets you can't resist a good adventure and you nod in affirmation. Now, if you think the WoL should have more dialogue options or more varied or nuanced writing, that's a reasonable opinion but a separate discussion.We also aren't "given a focus" at all. The only time the mothercrystal gives specific instructions is how to banish Ascians, sure...but by that point we wanted to do that anyway because we had become very involved in that situation.

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I like this point, in my headcanon, My Character has the persona of not only a righteous person who will always do the right thing, but also as someone with an endless wanderlust and an insatiable appetite for a good battle. Thus why I specifically chose to fight the primal Ifrit, not only because it was the right thing, but because it would be a chance (though only one of many) to actually kill a god. Now that The Warring Triad, The Queen of Voidsent, and Giant Primal Alexander are running lose I now have something even more powerful than Phantom Gods to kill. Being Hydaelyn's Chosen is irrelevant to him when Justice, Adventure, and powerful battles are what I came to Eorzea for (Soon as we get some more info on it, I'm planning to make an RP story about being from the Northern continent.) Being Hydaelyn's Champion just so happens to be an almost guaranteed path to those things. My WoL is basically Hydaelyn's perfect soldier. I don't need a REASON to fight the mother crystal's enemies, but it's a frequently useful excuse.

I must admit the idea of breaking free of Hydaelyn's influence appeals to me greatly. I think one of the biggest issues in regards to the WoL is that they're not from Eorzea. That alone makes their investment and loyalty to the place rather dubious in my eyes - and it does lend a lot of weight to the theory that the WoL may only think that they're in control.

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Originally Posted by CyrilLucifer

I'd say that a lot of this has to do with the limits of the game's storytelling method and the glorification of self-sacrifice in fiction (and very much so in XIV, basically that entire 2.55 scene had it, and then you have Haurchefant and Ysayle). I expect that, if we are to sacrifice something, we'll all end up doing it without hesitation or complaint.

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Had this argument with Cilia the last time it came around. Something something Final Summoning. But she (he?) hadn't seen this:

Final Fantasy X-2 Spoilers
Best damn scene in the game. Relevant section runs from 0:38-4:45.

You're welcome.

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Originally Posted by Fenral

Snip
Final Fantasy X-2 Spoilers
Best damn scene in the game. Relevant section runs from 0:38-4:45.

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I for one want to stop standing there like "what do I do? What do I do!?!"

The maid said "I need your Weapon before you see Nanamo" my answer "Uh, no. If someone trys to attack her while we're talking I can't help her with out my Spear."

Crystal Braves try to arrest me, "Nice try noobs. <PKs the Crystal Brave trators before using status cure item on Nanamo>

Telegi tries his cou "Oh shut up ready you trator" <Walks in with pissed Nanamo>

Darklander bumbrushes me. <blocks ax with Spear before pwning him like a noob>

See how the game would be different if we DID THINGS rather than stand there like an idiot then going "What just happened?" After l hell breaks loose.

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Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace

See how the game would be different if we DID THINGS rather than stand there like an idiot then going "What just happened?" After l hell breaks loose.

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I can totally sympathize with this. A lot of the problems in this game are caused by our characters willingness to do whatever he is told and have no personal initiative.

The banquet, in particular, was a disaster. I mean, the crystal braves betray Alphi, and he rolls over. I wasn't surprised. I never expect anything out of that idiot (though HW redeemed him a little). They make a move to arrest the Scions ... and the scions actually fight! Thancred goes rouge on their asses. I was pleasantly surprised and was reminded of why I liked his character (before they made him all useless after the whole Lahabrea thing). They go for the WoL and ... we make an angry expression at them. That's it.

Seriously? I've been killing GODS for you people. I fought a WAR for you people. They have NEVER offered any relevant help to those escapades, and the heads of state up and leave you in chains without so much as a word of protest. What is our response to this? We grimace our teeth at the guy. An emote. That's what we got. A damn emote. Then we get rescued and are expected to just forgive and forget while we live as a fugitive ... The only thing more irritating than these circumstances is the fact that my character is apparently too stupid to do something about them.

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Originally Posted by Fenral

Had this argument with Cilia the last time it came around. Something something Final Summoning. But she (he?) hadn't seen this:

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Yeah, we... wait, what? I was never a proponent for the "noble self-sacrifice" card being played over and over. People constantly believing that sacrificing themselves is the only way to resolve conflicts gets old and suggests they have little self-worth outside that sacrifice. I never played much of X-2 but that reminded me a lot of Colette's post-World Regeneration journey attitude from Tales of Symphonia, as well as Yuri's attitude towards Estelle's belief that if she has to sacrifice herself for the world then it's okay.

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Originally Posted by Yuri Lowell

"It's okay if I have to sacrifice myself?" What the hell was that? I don't ever want to hear that again.

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Of course, this is the proper attitude a hero should adopt. No sacrifices should be necessary. Sometimes they are, but we shouldn't be complicit with anyone trying to sacrifice themselves, and our will to live should stop us from trying to do so ourselves. At the same time if others deem it necessary, it's hard to disrespect their wishes...

... I get the feeling this is gonna come up with Minfilia in 3.2. I really, really do.

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Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace

See how the game would be different if we DID THINGS rather than stand there like an idiot then going "What just happened?" After l hell breaks loose.

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That would be nice, but they'd have to program various branching story paths for it. I was a NIN during "The Parting Glass," so a little smoke bomb, some misdirection, and escape without detection would be entirely feasible. (See my comment on Deus Ex: Human Revolution; while I am replaying it I beat it 6 or so times already and got both the perfect stealth and pacifist achievements on the same run, so it would have been cake to me.) Lots of other people aren't or weren't though, so they couldn't have adjusted the story for all those factors.

We can't fight in cutscenes (even though I'm kind of annoyed Thancred thought I needed an assist - do you see this big-ass sword I'm carrying now, loverboy?!) because the Magic classes couldn't realistically defend themselves against someone like Darklander. There's also the problem of fight choreography for every class, which... would cost a lot? Probably? /shrug

that last part could be fixed with single player duties thought, a short one where you fend off or distract the guards. At the very least would make the inaction a non-issue