You are not a fail.

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Originally Posted by Shirana

the point is people should play like they want. For fun. And not being harassed over it. Or shouted at for not being good enough for a forced play style.
When an undergeared healer is being harassed for failing to speed run a dungeon it's not playing for fun it's being told what to do in an angry manner. When a tank doesn't find speed runs fun he shouldn't be harassed for not doing speed runs. When a DPS doesn't enjoy spamming crappy AoE's because he or she does not fun to spam one button he or she shouldn't be shouted at for it or treated differently.
I apologize if my point came off wrong. I'm not in anyway a master of making essays.

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Okay, so you're mixing the two.
As I said, you shouldn't force someone to do something they can't. That's obvious. If a tank/heal isn't geared enough of lack some personal skill, doing big pulls would be stupid and would slow down the run because of unavoidable wipes.
That's a given (hence my "Duh" answer).

However, you are also saying that someone should have the right to do whatever they want in order to enjoy the game. To do what they want "for fun", as you said.
Here's the problem: "fun" is subjective.

If I say to you "I find speedruns to be fun", why shouldn't I have the same right as the person saying "I only find slow runs fun"? How exactly can you tell what kind of fun takes priority over another kind of fun, since it's highly subjective?

Like someone said above, if I find the "normal" strat on T6 to be more "fun" than the LoS strat, should I have the right to tell the 7 other people to go f**k themselves because my fun is more important? Should I have the right to slow other people's progression just because of my own selfishness?
You seem to be saying that yes, I should have that right... but the problem is that, the 7 other people also have that right.

That's why compromises are important in our society and, in that case, a MMORPG.
You can't have everything. Sometimes you'll have to sacrifice your own pleasure in order to keep everything as smooth as possible... because the potential conflict that will ensue will more likely annihilate your "fun" anyway.

That's how human relations work. Compromises.

you still never answered if you were against all the other examples I gave previously Kosmos. From your posts, I can only assume you want everyone to play the game exactly as each encounter was designed with no allowance for various strategies. That's what I mean, finding new ways to run things. From the way you type, you want all content level synced, all ways to push phases and run different strategies removed, and there should only be one way to do all content. Is that true? Is that your point?

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

As it happens, I believe that you are wrong, the use of level sync in the pre-50 dungeons clearly demonstrates the intent to maintain the difficulty of content despite the gear ladder. SE has been extremely tardy in applying ilvl sync to the 50+ dungeons, and that has created an issue where highly geared players can, as you point out, ignore mechanics. That is the result of SE not yet applying the same balance to the 50+ dungeons as they did to the pre-50 dungeons.

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People clear Amdapor Keep and Wanderer's Palace, two iLvL synced dungeons in around 10-12 minutes, their difficulty is non existent. The main goal of the iLvL sync is to tone down speed running, not remove it.

For someone who is against other people telling you how to play, your stance on the subject isquite hypocritical.

slow df run makes me sleepy ; ;

You should play the game based on my FEELINGS otherwise you are an elitist tryhard antisocial bully.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

And those 'examples' have zilch to do with the topic.

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Refering to:

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Originally Posted by Shirana

As a Healer that doesn't want to AoE or cleric stance.
As a DPS that wants to kill adds hitting the healer instead of burning boss.
As a tank taking it slow or pulling only two groups.
As a player wanting to do mechanics instead of ignore them.
As a new player to the dungeon dying to mechanics in a forced, silent speed run.
As a human being trying to remember what having fun means.

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I have no problem with rest of the OP's post (seriously, who is just going to come out and say harassment is good, it is just stating the obvious)
but some of those example is just seems like some players being bad and uncompromising to other players especially the "mechanics" part.
I mentioned, there's a difference between a speedrun that is beyond what your party can handle vs just trying to make the run a bit easier/quicker - especially in case of burning bosses down is what the majority people do and actually handling the mechanics half-assed that actually makes the run harder.

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Originally Posted by Daranion

you still never answered if you were against all the other examples I gave previously Kosmos. From your posts, I can only assume you want everyone to play the game exactly as each encounter was designed with no allowance for various strategies. That's what I mean, finding new ways to run things. From the way you type, you want all content level synced, all ways to push phases and run different strategies removed, and there should only be one way to do all content. Is that true? Is that your point?

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My point is that a) the game should be played as intended, b) no one should be made to play in a way that they are uncomfortable with, and c) no one should be harassed because they do not meet the expectations of another for playing.

Applying a worthwhile level sync to WP and AK would not prevent speed runs, nor would it hurt you, me or anyone else in any way, but it would preserve the mechanics of the dungeon to a decent extent.

Frankly though, I really dislike speed runs, and especially forced speed runs. I do not find them enjoyable experiences, nor do I enjoy being abused by some dps who wants to push things by pulling the trash ahead of us to force the pace. If you want to go find fun new ways of doing things, go make a PF group for it, duty finder is meant to be there to help players find others to play with, so you can't expect players there to be ready for a mega pull or speed run.

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Originally Posted by Dwill

People clear Amdapor Keep and Wanderer's Palace, two iLvL synced dungeons in around 10-12 minutes, their difficulty is non existent. The main goal of the iLvL sync is to tone down speed running, not remove it.

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Which it abjectly fails to do.

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Originally Posted by Dwill

For someone who is against other people telling you how to play, your stance on the subject isquite hypocritical.

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Hardly, my stance is simple, don't tell me how to play, you may not like that I like the play the full dungeon mechanics and not pull the entire trash pack at once, but guess what, that's not my issue, and it's how the dungeon was designed. No hypocrisy, just a position that you and other don't like because it's in the way of your speed run grind. Feel free to cross me off your Xmas card list though.

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Originally Posted by Lyni

Yea. This argument is going to go no where. You get 2 different people wanting to play how they want, IE one wants slow one wants fast runs, then what? Both raging at each other for the other impairing their ability to play how they want.

Point- it goes both ways and both sides need to learn to compromise and stop acting entitled and selfish.

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Courtesy is a two way street as is an open mind. If a person chooses to stay in a situation that the majority has ruled then they choose to deal with a speed run. But whether or not a tank pulls a massive amount or a smaller amount, or a healer that holys or not, or a DPS that aoes or prefers single target burning is up to the players style. this is a shoutout to people being harassed because other players want to give them stress. Not by giving advice or trying to help them if they need it, but by basically going "OMFG CANT HANDLE IT? NOOOOBBB" or calling them failures if they simply can't keep up or don't want the stress/headache from doing a playstyle that is not fun for them.

Also, so many replies... x.x

Fun is subjective, don't throw your playstyle on other people in DF, if you want to play your way without hindering others who are unfamiliar with your playstyle, then make a PF.

While I essentially agree with Shirana, the flip side of the coin is that there must be consideration and politeness towards others on part of the people who don't particularly care for speedruns, wasting other peoples' time knowingly is a terrible thing to do, which many healers who absolutely refuse to DPS under any circumstance whatsoever do, as an example.

Personally, I enjoy speedruns greatly, they're challenging and fun, and not everyone feels that way, but just as I compromise this by letting my group take it slow if they're going slow and want to do things the long way, it's nice of these people to try to accomodate others when they want to do things a bit faster.

Mutual respect is sadly lacking between the two camps, where both sides essentially look down on eachother for different reasons.

It's very hard to defend players who willingly trouble their group for selfish reasons, however.